Focused Feedback: Tank Updates

[Myrmidon]

6 hours ago, Grandfeatherex said:

there is no reason to continue my rad/axe tank, i'll reroll it as a brute on homecoming and makes the tank version on rebirth

 

Then, can I have your Tanker Stuff? AT sets, please.

[DSorrow]

16 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

It's been said it will happen, Rage will changed for the port, but no further information or timetable given. 

Looking forward to this. Though if the incoming Tank and SS changes hit servers first I might just go for an /SS Tanker and fix the noticeable lack of Tankers on my roster. I have a Super Strength concept that would work with both a Tank or a Scrapper so...

Edited September 20, 2019 by DSorrow

[ParagonKid]

Also, regarding endurance use:

 

It's beyond the scope of this specific thread, but I think that the blue bar is a bigger issue that impacts all ATs. I've been playing Classic WoW recently and looking at how they modernized their combat systems over the years. If CoH had continued I feel like they would have followed a similar trajectory: a faster tempo, less downtime (so maybe an End discount for everyone) and removal of pointless whiffing (low level CoH is bad with the hit checks, but Classic Warriors are nothing but MISS, PARRY, DODGE, MISS).

 

Such a large revamp is something I'd like to see explored...eventually.

[ironjoe]

I really feel these changes are helping to differentiate where Brutes and Tanks differ. Brutes will still be great solo and can tank on teams when they want. Tanks will still be weaker than Brutes solo but will shine more on teams. I see the tank AT as one focused on the team experience and I see changes that reinforce that as a bonus. That being said my initial testing was done solo. The increased aoe/cone size was noticeable on my tank and I think will translate well to the teaming experience. I was able to use it to reach the agro cap much quicker than the past. Damage increases weren't at noticeable when solo.

[Haijinx]

Coh already has almost no downtime.  

 

I never even use rest.  

 

 

[Haijinx]

4 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

 

I was hoping to be able to roll this when Homecoming servers opened, however, it looks like we could be waiting a while.

Its cause of the doyble rageoholics and them not wanting a crash. 

 

So it will be another 10 years at this rate. 

[Sovera]

Considering how reviled the set is outside of Footstomp and Rage it's amazing anyone *wants* it.

[Haijinx]

35 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Considering how reviled the set is outside of Footstomp and Rage it's amazing anyone *wants* it.

KOB is pretty good too

[Captain Citadel]

40 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Considering how reviled the set is outside of Footstomp and Rage it's amazing anyone *wants* it.

Knockout Blow is amazing, and also some people just really like the animations. It's difficult to use Martial Arts or Street Justice to capture the feel of a character with archetypal superhuman strength.

[csr]

15 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

pfffft why? This is a discussion about Tankers. A buff to them DOES NOT necessarily mean a buff or nerf to any other melee class is needed.

I think it does.  Brutes outperform every other AT.  Some by a very wide margin.  Captain Powerhouse  told us he believes Brutes have 90% the survivability of Tankers and wants Tankers to do 90% of the damage.  Having two ATs outperform all the rest is a bad idea.  So, the implication is that if Brutes aren't going to get nerfed and Tankers will be buffed to match them, then the devs must believe one of the following:

1. Brutes aren't actually outperforming other ATs.* 
2. Brutes and Tankers only have to be balanced against each other, not all the rest of the ATs.
3. The other ATs need to be buffed.

 

* I think it's undeniable that they are in terms of top end performance.  They are also the most popular AT; there are 50% more Brutes than Scrappers, and twice as many as there are Tankers.  Two classes that are very similar and for the most part share the same power choices.  I believe the reason they are more popular than Tankers - damage/ease of play solo - is being addressed in this patch.  But what is the reason for this popularity over Scrappers?  It's not as if Scrapper survivability sucks, and they typically do a bit more damage, so why are Brutes 50% more popular?  I think it's because at the high end they are up to three times as tough.  Scrappers simply can't reach Brute levels of high end performance using the same sets.  The only time they are close is using low-Res sets such as Super Reflexes.  And it's no random fact that the four least popular Brute secondaries are Def-based (Ice, Stone - mostly Def outside Granite, Energy Aura and Super Reflexes).  The only principally Def-based set not at the bottom is Shield Defense, with it's offensive buffs (it's in the middle, ranking 6th of 13 sets).  By comparison Def-based sets rank 2nd, 4th and 5th for Scrappers (SR, SD and Nin) out of 13 (Ice and Energy Aura are still at the bottom, as with Brutes)  And the #1 set isn't Res based either, it's Regen (which ranks 4th for Brutes).  It certainly looks as if Brutes are preferred because of the high-end performance of Res-based secondaries.

Edited September 20, 2019 by csr

[csr]

7 hours ago, DSorrow said:

This isn't universally true. My TW/Elec has capped S/L/E/F/C Resistance and perma Hasten. Many sets can easily get soft capped Defense and perma Hasten.

 

Why aren't Scrappers competitive with Brutes?

Because they have a Res cap of 75% and Brutes have a Res cap of 90%.  So with high end builds Brutes can have 3 times the survivability of Scrappers.  The damage difference at the high end is much, much smaller than this.  In SO/solo play, they are comparable.  Scrappers might even be a bit better.  But at the top end, it's not particularly close.

[MunkiLord]

46 minutes ago, csr said:

Because they have a Res cap of 75% and Brutes have a Res cap of 90%.  So with high end builds Brutes can have 3 times the survivability of Scrappers.  The damage difference at the high end is much, much smaller than this.  In SO/solo play, they are comparable.  Scrappers might even be a bit better.  But at the top end, it's not particularly close.

In the vast majority of content the extra resist cap doesn't mean too much, but it is nice. The thing that really pushes Brutes over the top, in my opinion, is their better taunt auras and aggro management compared to Scrappers. Teammates close the survivability and damage difference quite a bit, but they can't help Scrappers hold aggro.

[Captain Citadel]

1 minute ago, MunkiLord said:

In the vast majority of content the extra resist cap doesn't mean too much, but it is nice. The thing that really pushes Brutes over the top, in my opinion, is their better taunt auras and aggro management compared to Scrappers. Teammates close the survivability and damage difference quite a bit, but they can't help Scrappers hold aggro.

Scrappers aren't meant to hold aggro, though. Like Stalkers, the stated purpose of the AT is melee DPS.

[MunkiLord]

33 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

Scrappers aren't meant to hold aggro, though. Like Stalkers, the stated purpose of the AT is melee DPS.

Agreed, I was just giving my thoughts on what I consider the Brutes biggest advantage over a Scrapper. Many, if not most, will likely value the extra hp and resistance more and I don't think they are wrong. But I took Provoke on my Archery Blaster, so I love aggro. 

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, csr said:

Because they have a Res cap of 75% and Brutes have a Res cap of 90%.  So with high end builds Brutes can have 3 times the survivability of Scrappers.  The damage difference at the high end is much, much smaller than this.  In SO/solo play, they are comparable.  Scrappers might even be a bit better.  But at the top end, it's not particularly close.

Not really 3 times the survivabilty, just take 1/3 as much damage is some(many?) instances

 

The scrapper usually does not face any content that overwhelms her defenses either.  

[Myrmidon]

4 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Its cause of the doyble rageoholics and them not wanting a crash. 

 

So it will be another 10 years at this rate. 

 

Stack Junkies...

[Mr. Igneous]

Hello All,

 

Hope you are all well. 

 

Tried to Solo Nosferatu with a Stone/Dark tank on the live server.  Need Granite for this battle.  Needless to say, it was a stalemate even at no AV and -1 level.  I could not dent him he heals too fast.  I don't think the new +damage changes would be enough to make that battle any better.  Need a team for Nosferatu if you are playing a Stone Armor tank. 

 

Could not survive this battle in Rock/Crystal/Rooted, I tried, he does too much damage when he hits, even with 46 dark energy defense he hits a lot.  His accuracy debuff is nasty too.  Not bad enough, damage output is very low, but to have so many misses really sucked.

[Myrmidon]

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

KOB is pretty good too

 

And Handclap (once you change it to KD).

[Myrmidon]

3 hours ago, csr said:

They are also the most popular AT; there are 50% more Brutes than Scrappers, and twice as many as there are Tankers.

 

Granted, however, after looking at those numbers that Cipher listed, the question of how many of those Brutes are more than just Farm Monkeys should be answered before we use that metric.

[Myrmidon]

9 minutes ago, Mr. Igneous said:

Hello All,

 

Hope you are all well. 

 

Tried to Solo Nosferatu with a Stone/Dark tank on the live server.  Need Granite for this battle.  Needless to say, it was a stalemate even at no AV and -1 level.  I could not dent him he heals too fast.  I don't think the new +damage changes would be enough to make that battle any better.  Need a team for Nosferatu if you are playing a Stone Armor tank. 

 

Could not survive this battle in Rock/Crystal/Rooted, I tried, he does too much damage when he hits, even with 46 dark energy defense he hits a lot.  His accuracy debuff is nasty too.  Not bad enough, damage output is very low, but to have so many misses really sucked.

 

Look on the bright side. At least you’re T9 doesn’t try to kill you.😁

[ParagonKid]

Well, I mean, people are going to take whatever performs the best to farm. If there wasn't a clear AT winner running out front, there wouldn't be so many farming Brutes.

 

And "the best AT is subjective" is an excuse IMO. We have an objective measurement of "the best" as perceived by most of the playerbase: the one everybody flocked to when the slate was wiped clean.

 

Yes, farming isn't nessisarily the entire game, but most of the game is about killing groups of enemies. Farming is just doing so unaided and cutting out the walking.

 

Of course,, you have to apply this line if thinking to balance intelligently: SS will probably remain a popular set regardless of how it performs for reasons on concept/roleplay alone. Heck, I feel it's popular despite it's terrible animations and uninspired design.

Edited September 20, 2019 by ParagonKid

[Mr. Igneous]

9 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

 

Look on the bright side. At least you’re T9 doesn’t try to kill you.😁

Lol...they should rename Unstoppable to "Willingly dying in 180 seconds"

[Profit]

24 minutes ago, Mr. Igneous said:

Could not survive this battle in Rock/Crystal/Rooted,

Could I see your build please.

[Haijinx]

On the 3x damage thing ..

 

Its probably an exaggeration to think anyone outside of granite tankers is hitting 90% resist on more than 3-4 damage types..

 

Some sets its just S/L.  Some sets its none.  

 

Example-

EA brute vs EA scrapper, the heal/regen is better on the brute, but the resists and def are going to be similair.

[Leogunner]

8 minutes ago, Profit said:

Could I see your build please.

I was actually going to say the same thing.