Focused Feedback: Tank Updates

[ZeeHero]

10 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

You can do that without nerfing their performance against AV's in teams.

I fully support fixing bruising to how it was pre purple patch and leaving it in for tankers along with all the other changes.

[Tachstar]

Saw that there was a new patch, so I rolled up a new beta tanker -- Tanky Man!   Super duper reflexes/super duper strength.  Skipped the tutorial.  Didn't take any of the P2W powers.  Clobbered enough Hellions to hit level 2, then used the cheat thingee to level on up to 25.  Went to Talos and clobbered some Tsoo and Warriors who were disturbing the peace.  Felt pretty good, but I did a respec and slotted more end reds, then did a radio mission.  Not bad, not bad at all, but I was feeling the singular targetiness of super duper strength pretty, ya know, strongly.  Still, thanks to super duper reflexes, the bad guys were whiffing so much that taking them out one. at. a. time wasn't too onerous.  Leveled on up to 32, got new SOs, and went to Brickstown.  Lucked into the prison riot event thingee, and hey, THAT was big fun. 

 

Rage, along with Assault, gave me a 98.75% damage bonus.  I'd put two level 35 recharge SOs in Rage, and it was ready to click again within a couple of seconds after wearing off, which was great.  When the Freakshow guys showed up, I got 'em all ticked off at me and commenced to taking them out one. at. a. time.  I popped a few inspirations along the way, some greens, reds, and yellows.  At one point I decided to click Elude, and that was interesting.  Massive defense boost.  I wasn't sure what would happen when it wore off, but I had several purples ready.  When it did wear off all my toggles dropped, but thanks to my real life super duper reflexes (and the fact that for once the mouse cooperated) I managed to click all those purples and some blues and got right back to clobbering.  But, dang.

 

After the Freakshow were subdued, some super duper prisoners came out, so I clobbered them, too.  Got to pick a temp power.  Woot.  Then I ran around randomly clobbering various other bad guys for a few minutes.  There was one other player in the zone, also a tanker, but our paths never crossed.

 

Anyway, that was fun.  I'm fast becoming a big fan of super duper reflexes on tankers.  Super duper strength felt kinda super duper puny before Rage, even with Assault -- as mentioned previously, the one. at. a. time thing was looming fairly large -- but once I got Rage things really picked up and I didn't mind the one. at. a. time thing all that much due to the increased clobber rate.  So, five out of five stars.  Would play again.   

[Auroxis]

9 minutes ago, Vanden said:

If incarnate powers are in play, it's extremely unlikely that a single resistance debuff is going to make any difference.

It definitely does, depending on team composition. Or are you gonna also assume that people always team with an abundance of -res and 50+1's?

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, Auroxis said:

It definitely does, depending on team composition. Or are you gonna also assume that people always team with an abundance of -res and 50+1's?

It seems as reasonable an assumption as people always fighting +4 AVs with tier 3 incarnates slotted.

[Auroxis]

10 minutes ago, Vanden said:

It seems as reasonable an assumption as people always fighting +4 AVs with tier 3 incarnates slotted.

It definitely isn't in my experience. For Alpha in any rate.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Auroxis

[ParagonKid]

I didn't ask for better AoE and I don't care to give up anything from my Tanker for it, especially ST damage, regardless if others feel it's insignificant or not.

The onus shouldn't be on me to fight to keep what I've got. I didn't ask to bargain and I don't care if others think it's a good deal; I think it's a swindle and don't remember authorizing anyone else to make that choice for me.

 

If you think tankers are underwhelming or underperforming, buff them. If it is truly the case that they are lacking, it shouldn't be required they trade anything.

[Vanden]

3 minutes ago, ParagonKid said:

I didn't ask for better AoE and I don't care to give up anything from my Tanker for it, especially ST damage, regardless if others feel it's insignificant or not.

The onus shouldn't be on me to fight to keep what I've got. I didn't ask to bargain and I don't care if others think it's a good deal; I think it's a swindle and don't remember authorizing anyone else to make that choice for me.

 

If you think tankers are underwhelming or underperforming, buff them. If it is truly the case that they are lacking, it shouldn't be required they trade anything.

Your damage is not being reduced. Tanker base damage was increased by the same amount as Bruising added, and that affects self damage buffs like Build Up and Assault Hybrid as well.

[Leogunner]

4 hours ago, Auroxis said:

 

1. You have to pick up Assault to make use of it, where-as Bruising comes without a power pick.

2. If you had Assault before, the difference is 8.25% which isn't nearly as good as a 20% resistance debuff against AV's and even EB's.

It's actually better because it stacks.

[BillyMailman]

5 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Your damage is not being reduced. Tanker base damage was increased by the same amount as Bruising added, and that affects self damage buffs like Build Up and Assault Hybrid as well.

Tanker effective damage is being reduced in some circumstances, though, because Bruising boosted everyone's damage, not just your own.

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, BillyMailman said:

Tanker effective damage is being reduced in some circumstances, though, because Bruising boosted everyone's damage, not just your own.

That’s not what Paragon Kid is upset about, to read his posts.

[Replacement]

 

19 minutes ago, ParagonKid said:

I didn't ask for better AoE and I don't care to give up anything from my Tanker for it, especially ST damage, regardless if others feel it's insignificant or not.

The onus shouldn't be on me to fight to keep what I've got. I didn't ask to bargain and I don't care if others think it's a good deal; I think it's a swindle and don't remember authorizing anyone else to make that choice for me.

 

If you think tankers are underwhelming or underperforming, buff them. If it is truly the case that they are lacking, it shouldn't be required they trade anything.

Fortunately, you are wrong. 

 

(This isn't me trying to be aggressive, btw.  I feel this is born from a misunderstanding and I need a way to grab your attention so you aren't spreading misinformation)

 

Scenario #1: you're soloing.  Vs ST or aoe, the results are the same: you now deal, at worst, the same damage (because Bruising's power boost has been baked into all of your attacks) and more likely, better (because the new increased damage multiplier is immune to Purple Patching).

 

Scenario #2: you're partying vs a single big target.  You lose some minor ability to increase your party's damage in exchange for contributing much more damage.  And, again, any +Recharge, +ToHit, or +Damage effects from your allies are now more effective.

 

Scenario #3: You're partying and fighting a big group.  Obviously, these buffs will be noticeable.

 

As I said a few pages back...

3 hours ago, Replacement said:

 

For every party composition that loses some damage vs AVs with this change, there will be another comp that is improved by it.

And even this is likely underselling it.  I'm guessing it'll be a minority (but still a plurality) of party setups that will see a slight hit to overall damage.  And you know what?  Find those setups, make them, and I bet you won't even notice the difference.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Replacement
Removed some subjectivity, added Scenario #3 just to ensure we're discussing the same things.

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, ParagonKid said:

Losing Bruising for slightly better AoE is still a huge net loss for Tankers. Bruising improved not only their direct damage, but the damage of Hybrid Assault and Interface damage procs and any IO procs on their attacks.

Increasing their damage mod to .95 while removing Bruising makes them demonstrably worse.

Let alone the fact the people who value ST damage would be having it forced on them. I personally find this whole thing very alienating and distressing that my tanks are getting nerfed.

And for what? I mean, even at the end of the day it doesn't make Tankers more attractive to everyone else. They don't BECOME better than Brutes at anything people care about with these changes (and becoming better is what it takes to actually shift anything).

I'll just say, I don't think the purpose to improve Tanker is to make them more attractive to a team (Tankers are demonstrably an asset to a team if one chooses to utilize them...they certainly aren't a debuff to your team) but rather more attractive to the PLAYER to make.

 

Why bother worrying about making Tanker meta in team builds when most teams just assemble whoever is willing to join?

[Leogunner]

53 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

You can do that without nerfing their performance against AV's in teams.

If Bruising is so valuable for AV fights, why not give it to the AT meant to be the better AV performer: Stalkers.

 

Tangent - If the devs are still contemplating new ATs to add to the game, maybe they can roll a Bruising-esque inherent ability into it and make it actually good and integral to its playstyle.

[Leogunner]

46 minutes ago, Tachstar said:

Rage, along with Assault, gave me a 98.75% damage bonus. 

SS has perma Scrapper BU?

 

Uhg, I really don't like that set.  

[ParagonKid]

Don't BS me. I can see that on the Live servers, Haymaker with Bruising applied does 13 damage at level three and on the test server, Haymaker with the .95 damage mod is doing 11 damage.

 

Having to weave in a T1 attack every 10 seconds negatively impacts your damage less than NOT having Bruising buff all your procs, bonus damage, Lore pet damage, whatever.

 

And even if you still think I'm wrong, I don't care. I don't want these changes. I don't want my characters impacted because someone else wants to make Tankers better farmers. Sorry if you don't like the attitude, but I feel like I'm being mugged at gunpoint by someone trying to explain how good being shot feels.

[Auroxis]

11 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

If Bruising is so valuable for AV fights, why not give it to the AT meant to be the better AV performer: Stalkers.

 

Tangent - If the devs are still contemplating new ATs to add to the game, maybe they can roll a Bruising-esque inherent ability into it and make it actually good and integral to its playstyle.

Because ideally, balancing classes isn't done by just removing a feature from one class and giving it to another. Besides, Stalkers don't need the extra boost, they have other issues like terrible AoE on certain primaries.

[Vanden]

5 minutes ago, ParagonKid said:

Don't BS me. I can see that on the Live servers, Haymaker with Bruising applied does 13 damage at level three and on the test server, Haymaker with the .95 damage mod is doing 11 damage

There’s a bug with the display numbers, they’re still showing the old damage numbers. If you go in-game and test the powers, they do more damage  than the info window says they will.

[Leogunner]

2 minutes ago, ParagonKid said:

And even if you still think I'm wrong, I don't care. I don't want these changes. I don't want my characters impacted because someone else wants to make Tankers better farmers. Sorry if you don't like the attitude, but I feel like I'm being mugged at gunpoint by someone trying to explain how good being shot feels.

Well, I understand how you feel, and I felt the same way but I found that...when considering aspects of changes and perceived unfair treatment, it's also important to gauge the damage done.

 

A lot of times, when people get offended by something, they only care that they are offended but ignore aspects like intent, harm caused, number of people affected, etc.

 

You say that your characters are impacted.  How much are they impacted, though?  Do you feel it is such a drastic change that your character cannot perform like it did before?  That it plays completely differently?  That your team role has changed?

[ParagonKid]

4 minutes ago, Vanden said:

There’s a bug with the display numbers, they’re still showing the old damage numbers. If you go in-game and test the powers, they do more damage  than the info window says they will.

I'm talking about the damage numbers that appear when you attack an enemy.

[Snakebit]

26 minutes ago, ParagonKid said:

but I feel like I'm being mugged at gunpoint by someone trying to explain how good being shot feels.

 

It might be time to find another hobby if you think that changes to a video game are like being mugged. 

[Caulderone]

1 hour ago, ParagonKid said:

 I think it's a swindle and don't remember authorizing anyone else to make that choice for me.

By joining a server ran by someone other than you (any and every MMO anywhere), you have done exactly that.  Don't like the way these Devs make adjustments, go start your own server and run it as you see fit.

 

If I were a Dev or Mod here, the abject sense of entitlement you display in that post, as well as the abject disregard and disrespect for the Devs here, would have led me to ban you outright, once and for all time.  Not liking some change, and posting as much, is always going to be ok.  Rank entitlement and pickheadedness and disrespect will never gain you any Dev's ear in any development anywhere ever.  It is highly likely to do the exact opposite, frankly.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Caulderone

[ParagonKid]

3 minutes ago, Caulderone said:

By joining a server ran by someone other than you (any and every MMO anywhere), you have done exactly that.  Don't like the way these Devs make adjustments, go start your own server and run it as you see fit.

 

If I were a Dev or Mod here, the abject sense of entitlement you display in that post, as well as the abject disregard and disrespect for the Devs here, would have led me to ban you outright, once and for all time.  Not liking some change, and posting as much, is always going to be ok.  Rank entitlement and pickheadedness and disrespect will never gain you any Dev's ear in any development anywhere ever.  It is highly likely to do the exact opposite, frankly.

The abject entitlement to not want something you care about changed simply because of someone else's fleeting whims.

 

RIIIIGHT.

[Caulderone]

Just now, ParagonKid said:

 because of someone else's fleeting whims.

Once again with the abject disregard and disrespect for the Devs.  My point stands.

[Haijinx]

At least this approach is honest 

 

Don't think Ive heard the Fear Change side of these things ever come right out and say "I don't like it because I fear change" 

[Rylas]

24 minutes ago, ParagonKid said:

And even if you still think I'm wrong, I don't care. I don't want these changes. I don't want my characters impacted because someone else wants to make Tankers better farmers. Sorry if you don't like the attitude, but I feel like I'm being mugged at gunpoint by someone trying to explain how good being shot feels.

Let's slow this roll a little. It's within your rights to be upset or to choose not to like something. But it doesn't serve your purpose to misrepresent the reasons why changes are being made. While these changes might help certain tanker builds farm better, it most certainly isn't the reason the changes are being tested or suggested. Have you actually tested this out beyond just the one thing you care about? So far, all the testing I've done hasn't shown any reduction in damage output. Quite the opposite. Like Bruising all you want, but it's contribution to solo and team play was never something I noticed, and only in very few situations made a difference (albeit one of negligible difference). At least the proposed changes allow for a lot more versatility for tanker play while also boosting their ability for crowd control.

 

I can understand some people's fondness over the power even though it always felt like lip-service damage boost to me. But in all seriousness, how exactly is the concept of Bruising that detrimental to the concept of the Tanker? It's really a support mechanic, and to me, if there was going to be an inherent power feature that Tankers should get, it should be more focused on crowd control, not boosting team damage.