Focused Feedback: Rikti Mothership Raid

[Sir Myshkin]

While not stated, do want to know for sure if we are to assume that normal in-zone MSR's can be completed without traveling through the LFG Que? The natural collection and running of a league in that environment is more free to hop in and out of and deal with occasional drop outs.

 

6 hours ago, Apparition said:

3. It is limited to those level 35+.  I have seen numerous people at Rikti mothership raids under level 15 (some even as low as level 1 or 2), using it as a method of PLing.  What the heck is a level 10 Scrapper going to contribute to a mothership raid, nonetheless a level 1?  In relation, it also cuts down the number of AFK leechers trying to PL.  They can be kicked from the instance, and not invited back at the next mothership raid.

I've joined... man I don't even know, well into the 50's worth of MSR's since Homecoming booted up and rarely found very many toons lower than 20 outside of very specific instances where the Raid leader was bringing someone along for an intentional speed-PL into their 20's (which no one cared, or likely even noticed). By the time anyone hits 28-32, the XP gains dramatically slow down by comparison, and by mid-to-late 30's, it's down to maybe a level-a-run. All that aside, contribution is what matters and even if that level 10 only did one point of damage to a Rikti, if that Rikti was one that none of the other team members damaged, then great, we all get credit for one more kill! The other thing to remember is that, until they hit 35 and can get the Vanguard badge, they're not earning any V-Merits, which is the key aspect of why people even do the MSR in bulk since you can cash those in for regular Merits.

 

In regards to AFK, I think you'd be massively disappointed if you really knew how many people tab out or just plan go AFK during those raids. It's not that hard to set an AoE on autofire, find an "active" player (usually a Blaster, Squid, or non-Tank Melee) not on your team, and target through them. MSR's are all about piling bodies into AoE's and making sure you get a point of damage on every Rikti you possibly can in order to get credit when they die get arrested. The more things you hit, the more XP and V-Merits you earn. MM's are the most flexibly notorious for this as there's nearly nothing more extensive they need to do other than drop their pets, buff, target through their T3 pet, plant their most useful tool on Auto-fire, and... take a nap.

 

Basically, you're not really ever going to be fully cognizant of "leechers" or "afkers" or the fact that some of those cases, the most efficient thing someone can do is just put their Fireball on auto-fire, auto-target, and chill.

[EyeLuvBooks]

I think that the proposed changes are great for a variety of reasons:

 

An instanced raid will prevent other players in the zone from being locked out.

 

I don't currently know of anyone who has attempted a MSR and then had to stop because someone else wanted to run one but this feature allows for it. If we want the game to continue to thrive we need to look to the future.

 

I would make the minimum level 30 instead of 35 because a lvl 30 can still contribute to the effort in a meaningful way. I'm okay with this being a deliberate anti-PLing measure because we already have several OTHER ways to do that and I don't think we need any more.

[Robotech_Master]

I'm concerned by the lack of a minimap.

 

In the regular raids, a minimap can be useful for seeing at a glance exactly where someone's died, if I need to figure out whether to go and risk my own safety to rez them. It can also be helpful to judge just which people have hospitalized, so I can see who I need to Recall Friend back, or whether I should go ahead and do an Incandescence to port multiple people back from the hospital at the same time. That's an important part of the raid meta to me.

 

If there's currently no minimap because it would be too much bother to edit down the zone map and implement it immediately for testing, and you plan to do it later, that's fine. But if it's a question of not having the minimap at all, I think the raids would work a lot better with one.

[Robotech_Master]

9 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

If the Mothership raid becomes an instance, what happens to the crashed Mothership area in the Rikti Warzone?

Leandro has said elsewhere that the zone version won't be changed or removed; people will still be able to do the public zone version of the MSR instead if they prefer.

 

(But will anyone have a good reason to bother with the zone version given the advantages a LFG queue version will have? If the instanced version is really going to be so much better, someone trying to start the old zone version could end up facing a ghost town. Perhaps the zone version should have something you can only get from that version, not the LFG version, so as to give people a reason to run one in the zone instead of the LFG queue. Would having an exploration badge you can only get that way, not via the LFG version, be enough of an incentive? Or does there need to be something more?)

Edited September 13, 2019 by Robotech_Master

[Mikewho]

FYI, the pylons in the normal RWZ zone are now level 54. I'm not sure if that's intended or not, but just wanted to make sure folks are aware.

[Croax]

52 minutes ago, Kaylin said:

FYI, the pylons in the normal RWZ zone are now level 54. I'm not sure if that's intended or not, but just wanted to make sure folks are aware.

Oh, i can hear allready the masterminds cry about their pylon damage timers.😂

[swordchucks]

I am assuming the current version is a WIP (it was also produced with impressive speed - so thank you very much for that).  I fully intend to get some folks in to the test server and offer specific feedback on this, but I'm not rushing as it sounds like there are major things unfinished. 

 

11 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

By the time anyone hits 28-32, the XP gains dramatically slow down by comparison, and by mid-to-late 30's, it's down to maybe a level-a-run.

My experience has been that with double xp, below level 30, MSR is worth about five levels and above 35 it's worth about three levels.  There's some variation based on the quality of the group (last night, I was an in exceptional group that got me four levels in my 40s), but those are pretty good ballparks. 

 

10 hours ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

I don't currently know of anyone who has attempted a MSR and then had to stop because someone else wanted to run one but this feature allows for it.

That doesn't really happen, but I'm in an SG that runs a lot of events like MSR and I do hear folks wanting to run them that will have to wait till the current one finishes.  That is an advantage for the instanced version.

 

10 hours ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

I would make the minimum level 30 instead of 35 because a lvl 30 can still contribute to the effort in a meaningful way.

Radical proposal: No minimum level (though the MSR itself doesn't need to level scale).  The good thing about leagues is that the league leader can control exactly who is in there.  If you show up with a level 5, it's on the league leader to see that and make the call.

 

8 hours ago, Robotech_Master said:

I'm concerned by the lack of a minimap.

I'm with you in that this feels like something that will be added.  I use the minimap during MSR more than I use it during most activities.  I'm assuming it's only missing right now because this was a very fast turnaround.

 

8 hours ago, Robotech_Master said:

Leandro has said elsewhere that the zone version won't be changed or removed;

Having it stay is good.  I'd really like to see it become a multi-league thing again, though.  My complaints about this change, at their root, are mostly about that aspect of it.

 

8 hours ago, Robotech_Master said:

But will anyone have a good reason to bother with the zone version given the advantages a LFG queue version will have?

Assuming badges are a low-effort thing to add (yeah, big assumption), it would make sense to have entirely separate badges for MSR stuff in either version.  I'd also like to see more done with the zone version (making it accommodate larger groups, mainly) while the Trial version becomes more challenging (with possibly greater rewards).

[EyeLuvBooks]

1 hour ago, swordchucks said:

I am assuming the current version is a WIP (it was also produced with impressive speed - so thank you very much for that).  I fully intend to get some folks in to the test server and offer specific feedback on this, but I'm not rushing as it sounds like there are major things unfinished. 

 

My experience has been that with double xp, below level 30, MSR is worth about five levels and above 35 it's worth about three levels.  There's some variation based on the quality of the group (last night, I was an in exceptional group that got me four levels in my 40s), but those are pretty good ballparks. 

 

That doesn't really happen, but I'm in an SG that runs a lot of events like MSR and I do hear folks wanting to run them that will have to wait till the current one finishes.  That is an advantage for the instanced version.

 

Radical proposal: No minimum level (though the MSR itself doesn't need to level scale).  The good thing about leagues is that the league leader can control exactly who is in there.  If you show up with a level 5, it's on the league leader to see that and make the call.

 

I'm with you in that this feels like something that will be added.  I use the minimap during MSR more than I use it during most activities.  I'm assuming it's only missing right now because this was a very fast turnaround.

 

Having it stay is good.  I'd really like to see it become a multi-league thing again, though.  My complaints about this change, at their root, are mostly about that aspect of it.

 

Assuming badges are a low-effort thing to add (yeah, big assumption), it would make sense to have entirely separate badges for MSR stuff in either version.  I'd also like to see more done with the zone version (making it accommodate larger groups, mainly) while the Trial version becomes more challenging (with possibly greater rewards).

"That doesn't really happen, but I'm in an SG that runs a lot of events like MSR and I do hear folks wanting to run them that will have to wait till the current one finishes.  That is an advantage for the instanced version."

 

Are you part of Chaos Unlimited? They seem to be the most frequent MSR starters at least during the times that I play.

 

IMHO the Leaguemaster has enough to do without having to check on the level of everyone who offers to join and again, the lower limit is an anti-PLing feature and I'm okay with that because frankly if I bring my 40+ toon and the leaguemaster lets in a few of his friends to get PLd then that means I'm carrying part of their load. I'm okay with that when it's MY team and I announce 'all levels welcome' but I might not want someone else's friends riding on my work, sorry.

 

I agree that the lack of a minimap could be an issue. If someone arrives late and there's no minimap they'll have no idea where the herd is. I expect that the players will adapt but we've HAD the minimap for so long that not having it will feel...weird to me.

 

 

[swordchucks]

1 hour ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

Are you part of Chaos Unlimited?

Chaos United, but yes!  We make it a point to run as much stuff as we can, and MSR is a favorite, which is one reason I'm expressing my concerns so much.

 

1 hour ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

the lower limit is an anti-PLing feature

The reason I would rather have no limit is that it gives you more freedom.  If the leader says "25+" or "35+" or "50s only", that's their prerogative.  If you show up, anyway, you're the jerk (and while you might not get caught sneaking in once, it won't do your reputation any favors in the long run).  However, if it is hard coded at 35+, then there's no way to run it for 25+.  One way requires some policing.  The other way just flat-out doesn't work.

[EyeLuvBooks]

1 minute ago, swordchucks said:

Chaos United, but yes!  We make it a point to run as much stuff as we can, and MSR is a favorite, which is one reason I'm expressing my concerns so much.

 

The reason I would rather have no limit is that it gives you more freedom.  If the leader says "25+" or "35+" or "50s only", that's their prerogative.  If you show up, anyway, you're the jerk (and while you might not get caught sneaking in once, it won't do your reputation any favors in the long run).  However, if it is hard coded at 35+, then there's no way to run it for 25+.  One way requires some policing.  The other way just flat-out doesn't work.

Chaos United...I stand corrected (I actually have one toon that is a member but I haven't played her for a week or more).

 

I can see your point and unfortunately my idea for a compromise (letting the Leaguemaster set a lower limit when he creates the event) would likely cause more coding headaches than it's worth. If the floor HAS to be hard-coded then I would be happy with a lower limit (you mentioned 25+). Many players start in their common IOs at lvl 22 so 25 would be fair IMHO.

 

I can see arguments for both sides here.

[Oklahoman]

On 9/12/2019 at 2:50 AM, Leandro said:

Tasks

• The Rikti Mothership raid can now be started from the LFG queue. This is a very rough version that I spent all of yesterday putting together, and it has issues. It is not final. To make testing easier, all characters on Pineapple will receive the Member of Vanguard badge on login.
• How it works:
  • Queue like any normal trial. It requires you to be level 35 or higher and have the Member of Vanguard badge.
  • For testing purposes the trial will start with 8 players, and has a maximum of 48. The mimimum players can be tweaked as requested.
  • All enemies inside the mission map are level 54, including the ones that are lower level in the zone. This is normal and expected.
  • The Patrol Ship will always spawn on the first pylon that is destroyed, rather than a 15% chance per pylon. Subject to feedback.
  • Once the time on the ship is over, the shield will not come back up. The trial ends with the shield still down and no enemies on the dish.
• Known issues:
  • The trial is listed as "LFG_Mission_RiktiPylonMission" in the LFG queue.
  • There are no navigation beacons in the mission map. This means that all enemies (and pets) will stay where they spawned.
  • There's no minimap.

I lead MSRs whenever I can. I like the idea of running it through LFG. I would much rather see 2 full MSRs going on at the same time than 1 oversized one.

 

I'm not a fan of the level 35 and Member of Vanguard badge requirement. I understand both sides of the argument, but if people are going to PL (and you know they will) I would rather they PL in an MSR than AE. Personal preference. I'd prefer it to be left open.

 

I'm concerned with the ending of the trial... or non-ending, as it were. Personally would like to see a countdown in the Nav bar or something so we all know how much time is remaining.

 

I like the patrol ship idea spawning on the first pylon.

 

Would prefer the minimap.

 

Can we put a hospital at Point du Hoc so people go there after dying? Honestly the main reason I would want the minimap is so I can proactively TP people back from the current hospital. If the hospital were at Point du Hoc I don't think I'd even bother looking for people coming back from the current hospital.

 

So, if you LFG for something like the blockbuster event, everyone needs to be in the same zone. Are we looking at teams having to form somewhere with a higher zone cap (I honestly don't know if there are higher zone caps out there or not) if you want to have a full league?

[Leandro]

People seriously need to go run the trial before posting suggestions that are already implemented and asking questions whose answers are obvious 30 seconds inside the map. I rushed as much as possible to get this patched in so people would playtest it, precisely because I don't like blind feedback based on a text proposal.

[Torcel]

I do have to strongly protest the min lvl 35 requirement.  We do a lot of MSRs on Indom, and no one gives two hoots if you come with a lvl 1, as long as you're active.  I've never seen a full raid league with above 5 or so below lvl 20, and I've never seen one end with more than one or two.  Yeah, people will use this to PL - I'd really rather that than AE.

[Apparition]

Rikti mothership raids had a level 35+ requirement from Issues 10 through 15.  It was removed when Paragon Studios removed the level requirements from all of the hazard zones in Issue 16 which, IMO, was a big mistake.  I spent issues 16 through 23 leading Rikti mothership raids and fighting those trying to PL and leech from them.  PLing and leeching through mothership raids negatively affects up to 47 others.  PLing and leeching through AE affects one or two.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Apparition

[Apparition]

Time to put it to a test.

[Oklahoman]

18 hours ago, Leandro said:

People seriously need to go run the trial before posting suggestions that are already implemented and asking questions whose answers are obvious 30 seconds inside the map. I rushed as much as possible to get this patched in so people would playtest it, precisely because I don't like blind feedback based on a text proposal.

Not sure if that is meant as a direct response to my post or just everyone in this thread, but just wanted to say that I do appreciate all the work that you and everyone do for Homecoming. We have the game back, and everything else is gravy. Period. Full stop.

 

I don't have a lot of time to play as-is, and to split any portion of that time off into going into a test server and setting everything up there is hard for me to justify. But, I will make every effort to try to do that this weekend and give more feedback.

[ivanhedgehog]

18 hours ago, Apparition said:

Rikti mothership raids had a level 35+ requirement from Issues 10 through 15.  It was removed when Paragon Studios removed the level requirements from all of the hazard zones in Issue 16 which, IMO, was a big mistake.  I spent issues 16 through 23 leading Rikti mothership raids and fighting those trying to PL and leech from them.  PLing and leeching through mothership raids negatively affects up to 47 others.  PLing and leeching through AE affects one or two.

You seem to obsess about this leeching, but a leech can be lvl 50 and you seem to have no problem with that. Any league leader can remove anyone of whatever level they dont want, they dont need you dictating that for them. Level restriction is not needed for a lfg raid, because they do have a leader that has removal power, adding a level barrier is just trying to restrict how others play.

[Apparition]

18 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

You seem to obsess about this leeching, but a leech can be lvl 50 and you seem to have no problem with that. Any league leader can remove anyone of whatever level they dont want, they dont need you dictating that for them. Level restriction is not needed for a lfg raid, because they do have a leader that has removal power, adding a level barrier is just trying to restrict how others play.

 

Oh, I have a problem with level 50 leechers as well.  Now that the Rikti mothership raid will be an instance, they can be more easily dealt with by kicking them, which is nice.

 

The Rikti mothership raid was designed for level 35+.  That's just a fact.  You had to be level 35 to access the Rikti War Zone in the first place for two years.  The purpose is for Vanguard merits, which only those level 35+ and with the Member of Vanguard badge can obtain.  There are also plenty of other avenues for PLing that don't impact up to 47 others.

 

In any case, the Rikti mothership raid trial test on the Pineapple server will start in about five and a half hours.

[ivanhedgehog]

3 hours ago, Apparition said:

 

Oh, I have a problem with level 50 leechers as well.  Now that the Rikti mothership raid will be an instance, they can be more easily dealt with by kicking them, which is nice.

 

The Rikti mothership raid was designed for level 35+.  That's just a fact.  You had to be level 35 to access the Rikti War Zone in the first place for two years.  The purpose is for Vanguard merits, which only those level 35+ and with the Member of Vanguard badge can obtain.  There are also plenty of other avenues for PLing that don't impact up to 47 others.

 

In any case, the Rikti mothership raid trial test on the Pineapple server will start in about five and a half hours.

how nice that we have you to dictate how others run their own raids. The devs removed the restriction for a reason. Stop trying to run everyone elses experience and deal with your own. If you are the raid leader, you decide who to invite. We dont need self elected autocrats ruining other experiences. let raid leaders determine who joins their raid.

Edited September 15, 2019 by ivanhedgehog

[Corruption]

2 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

how nice that we have you to dictate how others run their own raids. The devs removed the restriction for a reason. Stop trying to run everyone elses experience and deal with your own. If you are the raid leader, you decide who to invite. We dont need self elected autocrats ruining other experiences. let raid leaders determine who joins their raid.

Apparition isn't dictating anything, he's giving his opinion. You have your own opinion, it just happens to be a terrible one. If you can't see how a level 1 with no enhancements contributes absolutely nothing fighting against level 54's, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

 

[Myrmidon]

On 9/14/2019 at 3:22 PM, ElPuerco said:

but just wanted to say that I do appreciate all the work that you and everyone do for Homecoming. We have the game back, and everything else is gravy.

 

This cannot be expressed enough.😁

[Mikewho]

I had a great time at the test raid. Other than the items Leandro already knows about (no EBs, enemies not moving, and no minimap), I think this should be great!

[Apparition]

Yep, it was a great test trial raid.  Thanks to everyone that came!

 

New issue: No Chief Mesmerist spawned.

 

Confirmed known issue: No Rikti Magus spawned.

 

Once those two issues along with the lack of movement by NPCs are fixed, and a minimap is added, I can see this being a great addition to Homecoming.

 

For someone that asked: The trial automatically loads you into the Vanguard compound at Point du Hoc, and there is a hospital bed there.  Should you die and can't get a rez, going to the hospital will take you to the Vanguard compound at Point du Hoc.

 

I really like it.  I like that everything in the instance is level 54, so it adds a bit more challenge to the Pylon phase.  I like that the dropship now spawns after the downing of the first Pylon.

 

Oh, and it was confirmed by Leandro during the trial test that the "Join in Progress" option in the LFG window doesn't work and never did.  So, should someone want into a Rikti mothership raid trial after it starts, the league leader has to invite him or her.

 

[Torcel]

Agreed.  Loved having the whole ship just relocated to us!

 

New issue: No Headman spawned either.

 

Suggestion: Remove the range requirements for V-Merits.  Right now, if you're not in a relatively small radius of the kill (about the size of the bowl, really), you don't get a V-merit when things die.  This means that pullers in particular get fewer merits (and I think other rewards) than those who stay in the bowl the whole time.  Since anyone in the instance should be actively participating in the raid, though, it would make sense to me to give the V-Merits to anyone on the team in zone.

[Apparition]

24 minutes ago, Torcel said:

Agreed.  Loved having the whole ship just relocated to us!

 

New issue: No Headman spawned either.

 

Suggestion: Remove the range requirements for V-Merits.  Right now, if you're not in a relatively small radius of the kill (about the size of the bowl, really), you don't get a V-merit when things die.  This means that pullers in particular get fewer merits (and I think other rewards) than those who stay in the bowl the whole time.  Since anyone in the instance should be actively participating in the raid, though, it would make sense to me to give the V-Merits to anyone on the team in zone.

 

Agreed.  That wouldn't work for the zone Rikti mothership raid (because you could just be on the other side of the zone), but that is definitely a great idea for the trial.