Code of Conduct Update - September 25th 2019

[Blackbird71]

57 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

The point is, copyright infringement is illegal.  It was illegal last week, and it is illegal today.  Maybe you don't think that is right or fair, but like dog fighting and murder, it is still illegal.  If you don't like it, get elected to a legislative position and change the laws if you can.

The problem with this position is that there is still no settled case that makes it clear whether making similar-looking characters in a game (it's impossible to make exact copies with the tools at hand) actually qualifies as copyright infringement.  Until it's tested in court, this remains a gray area, and claiming others are breaking the law without established precedent is rather inflammatory and unnecessary.

 

Comparing them to murderers is just disgusting, on so many levels.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Blackbird71

[ShardWarrior]

22 minutes ago, Ironblade said:

I obviously don't have the original EULA at hand, but I'm pretty sure it granted NCSoft the right to use your characters (likeness, bio, etc) but not ownership.
This way, they could use them in ads, screenshots, videos, etc without having to get your permission (since you already gave it).  You were free to continue to use the character yourself.

That's not how I remember it.  I want to say this came up as a side discussion about AE arcs back in the day.  NCSoft owned everything including what was put into the AE.   Not 100% sure but this is what I recall of it anyway.

[Solarverse]

Okay, so I have to say, my main, Solarverse, is a direct copy of a copyrighted comic book character. However, I own the intellectual property and copyright. So what do I do when everytime (if at all) somebody reports my character (some people are pretty knowledgeable about the comic book world) and a GM nerfs my character? Is there a way to put me in the GM database (assuming they have one) to help avoid unnecessary Generic Hero (enter number here)?

[Captain Valiant]

On 9/24/2019 at 7:38 PM, Jimmy said:

Hello!

 

Today we've issued an update to our Code of Conduct. The key change is that we are no longer allowing characters that use copyrighted materials owned by other companies. This is the same as it was during the retail life of the game - we don't want to draw the ire of Marvel, DC, or other gigantic entities and unnecessarily put Homecoming at risk.

 

Characters using copyrighted materials will have their name and/or costume reset. You will then be able to select a new name and create a new costume the next time you log in.

 

- The Homecoming Team

You will, of course, explain in detail, in writing, what constitutes a copyright violation as it pertains to your game, for our future reference. "Copyrighted materials" can be interpreted as red capes, for example. Your definition must be complete and unable to be interpretted in more than one way.

[ShardWarrior]

2 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Okay, so I have to say, my main, Solarverse, is a direct copy of a copyrighted comic book character. However, I own the intellectual property and copyright. So what do I do when everytime (if at all) somebody reports my character (some people are pretty knowledgeable about the comic book world) and a GM nerfs my character? Is there a way to put me in the GM database (assuming they have one) to help avoid unnecessary Generic Hero (enter number here)?

The GMs addressed this earlier in the thread.  Send them a note and they'll discuss with you.

[Sidious]

2 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Okay, so I have to say, my main, Solarverse, is a direct copy of a copyrighted comic book character. However, I own the intellectual property and copyright. So what do I do when everytime (if at all) somebody reports my character (some people are pretty knowledgeable about the comic book world) and a GM nerfs my character? Is there a way to put me in the GM database (assuming they have one) to help avoid unnecessary Generic Hero (enter number here)?

GM Jimmy has stated previously in this thread that there is a database that all GMs can access for this issue.

Additionally he said they are working on a "GM Notes" for individual characters to help with situations like this.

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, ShardWarrior said:

The GMs addressed this earlier in the thread.  Send them a note and they'll discuss with you.

Totally missed that, thank you.

[Harrow]

Ideally GMs would have a way to flag your character as having already been reviewed and approved, for situations where something isn't a violation but looks enough like one that it might generate multiple reports.

 

EDIT: Never mind, someone addressed this already. Great!

Edited September 26, 2019 by Harrow

[ShardWarrior]

Just now, Harrow said:

Ideally GMs would have a way to flag your character as having already been reviewed and approved, for situations where something isn't a violation but looks enough like one that it might generate multiple reports.

They did address this.  They posted they have an internal database to handle this.

[Yomo Kimyata]

25 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

The problem with this position is that there is still no settled case that makes it clear whether making similar-looking characters in a game (it's impossible to make exact copies with the tools at hand) actually qualifies as copyright infringement.  Until it's tested in court, this remains a gray area, and claiming others are breaking the law without established precedent is rather inflammatory and unnecessary.

 

Comparing them to murderers is just disgusting, on so many levels.

Seems pretty dark charcoal to me, but what I think, and what you think, is irrelevant.  Personally, if people want to harass other people because they think the other person is breaking the law, that's kind of jerky.  But reporting them to the authorities?  Totally legit.  I also think that if you choose to rip off an existing character because it's not technically illegal, then you probably know that what you are doing is wrong.  But again, my thoughts are irrelevant other than establishing my position on things.

 

HC can do whatever they want for whatever motive they want.  I believe that they want to keep things squeaky clean because they don't want to run any risk.  I'd do the same thing if I were the one assuming risk.  But maybe they're just lawful good (boring!)  Or maybe they get a kick out of cheesing people off.  Whatever, it's their ball.  

 

And wow, dog fighting is ok but murder is disgusting?  Whatever!

[Abraxus]

8 minutes ago, Captain Valiant said:

You will, of course, explain in detail, in writing, what constitutes a copyright violation as it pertains to your game, for our future reference. "Copyrighted materials" can be interpreted as red capes, for example. Your definition must be complete and unable to be interpretted in more than one way.

Given all the debate over, and quoting of various Copyright, and Trademark statutes just in this thread, I'd say getting an item for item explanation will be darned near impossible.  Too much room for interpretation, and evaluation of the individual pieces that make up the whole.  It's basically going to come down to their call, if reported.  You could likely inquire about what exactly they see as how a specific toon crossed the line, but expecting anything beyond the general approach already stated is probably unrealistic. 

[ShardWarrior]

6 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I also think that if you choose to rip off an existing character because it's not technically illegal, then you probably know that what you are doing is wrong.

Just a side question out of curiosity - do you consider people who make their own costumes to dress up for comic cons and run around professing to be Superman or Batman or Captain America are breaking the law?

[Jimmy]

2 hours ago, MetaVileTerror said:

Jimmy, I believe their concern is more with the wording of the original Live City of Heroes game's EULA, which stated that NCSoft would get ownership of any content we made in the game.  So, if that EULA were a legally binding contract, people are afraid that they're technically using copywritten characters which they created, but signed away to NCSoft to play the game.  This isn't about Signature Characters like Statesman or Peter Thermari.

 

That's at least my reading on their concerns.

I can confirm that concern specifically is not an issue.

 

(Also: Original EULA for reference)

[Jimmy]

5 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

Given all the debate over, and quoting of various Copyright, and Trademark statutes just in this thread, I'd say getting an item for item explanation will be darned near impossible.  Too much room for interpretation, and evaluation of the individual pieces that make up the whole.  It's basically going to come down to their call, if reported.  You could likely inquire about what exactly they see as how a specific toon crossed the line, but expecting anything beyond the general approach already stated is probably unrealistic. 

This is correct.

[Trademarked Name]

2 hours ago, EmeraldFox said:

Besides to me when i see others copy heroes from comics and go's around pretending there them and not macho its like there taking the lazy route and not haveing an ounce of creativity.  Like us that come up with an idea try to find a name not used back ground hide out how we play the character etc etc.  People like that dont have that much respect as someone who created there idea either from inspiration and made there own or from scratch

Homecoming: Where the creatives are desired. And the rest can go pound sand. (Or play DCOU). 

Nice clearly stated elitist attitude but won't fit on a bumper sticker. HC staff has not once stated having an issue with member's lack of creativity though. Despite the fact that people keep injecting that into this thread makes my nap hair stand up on end. It's akin to "I don't like seeing all those ETHNIC toons around Atlas park. I've always thought of it to be a 'clean' place. I think the game would be better if we could 'lighten' them up a bit."

I was a published artist for a few years (not in comics genre, but sword/sorcery fantasy art RPGs and novels). I'm am often entertained by the arguments of how uncreative I am though for imitating Dave Steven's Rocketeer both here and back on Live. I would really enjoy reading how you would expound upon those thoughts even more. It gives me a chuckle as admire the irony of the Red Arrow avatar you have chosen. I must compliment you on the level of creativity and uniqueness.  

And just to put an exclamation point on this, you don't actually CREATE anything from scratch in CoH. Each of those costume pieces was created by a graphic artist, and fabricated before you ever touched the drop down menu or even downloaded the game. They did the wire-framing and skins. NOT YOU. So even though you have assembled the parts and colour palettes into something that appears unique, you are not doing anything but playing a 21st century version of PAPER DOLLS.

My career in art hearkens back to tracing comicbook characters from Capt. America, Spider-man, X-men, et al comic books as a child. I didn't know what a light table was as a 12 year old, but if I took my desk lamp and hovered it inches away from the 20# paperstock that was laying on top of the comic page and inches from my face where the heat from the bulb was nearly burning my cheek, I could trace the silhouette. After doing it several thousand times to various artwork, I realized I could just draw silhouettes and even unique poses of my own from that repetition. I was decorating other student's binders and folders with comic book heroes from scratch. Many years later I was doing portrait, illustration and poster prints as well as work for game companies (no longer tracing, obviously) as they would submit prospectus work to me. I never did attend an art school.  But until now I didn't realize that because I learned by tracing comic books in my early teens that I was in violation of trademark and now I actually owe Marvel for every penny I made doing commissioned artwork. I mean, even the landscape scenics were using information that indirectly used my skills with perspective that I learned from comics. Wow, with the compound interest over the decades, I must owe Marvel MILLIONS!!! I must try to contact every student who's binder I decorated and let them know they too are in possession of illegal trademarked materials and could be pursuant to a law suit!

 

Seriously though. Even though my characters are Generic'd now. I'd still like to know what the standard is or line is drawn as what is to obviously derivative of a license protected character.  The "We'll know a violation when we see it" is dubious. Some guidelines would be appreciated. I let some people know that there were new updated guidelines for Code of Conduct regarding trademarked characters and even made it the Msg of the Day for the SG. So I believe I have done my due diligence.

 

But I thought this is about not drawing unwanted attention to HC from those with deep pockets who could breakup the scrum with NCsoft. But now that I know it's really about eliminating the undesirable uncreative element, it makes a lot more sense to me. So, you don't have to worry about me pointing out that you're costume choice is derivative of a "hero x" from some company, but I guess since this is all about creativity, I will be pointing out to people when their costume sucks. "It's not very creative. You should go play another game. You're not really welcome here."

 

That's much better.

[Jimmy]

8 minutes ago, Trademarked Name said:

But I thought this is about not drawing unwanted attention to HC from those with deep pockets who could breakup the scrum with NCsoft. But now that I know it's really about eliminating the undesirable uncreative element, it makes a lot more sense to me.

This is patently false.

8 minutes ago, Trademarked Name said:

but I guess since this is all about creativity, I will be pointing out to people when their costume sucks. "It's not very creative. You should go play another game. You're not really welcome here."

Behavior like this will result in disciplinary action against your account.

[Abraxus]

5 minutes ago, Trademarked Name said:

Homecoming: Where the creatives are desired. And the rest can go pound sand. (Or play DCOU). 

Nice clearly stated elitist attitude but won't fit on a bumper sticker. HC staff has not once stated having an issue with member's lack of creativity though. Despite the fact that people keep injecting that into this thread makes my nap hair stand up on end. It's akin to "I don't like seeing all those ETHNIC toons around Atlas park. I've always thought of it to be a 'clean' place. I think the game would be better if we could 'lighten' them up a bit."

I was a published artist for a few years (not in comics genre, but sword/sorcery fantasy art RPGs and novels). I'm am often entertained by the arguments of how uncreative I am though for imitating Dave Steven's Rocketeer both here and back on Live. I would really enjoy reading how you would expound upon those thoughts even more. It gives me a chuckle as admire the irony of the Red Arrow avatar you have chosen. I must compliment you on the level of creativity and uniqueness.  

And just to put an exclamation point on this, you don't actually CREATE anything from scratch in CoH. Each of those costume pieces was created by a graphic artist, and fabricated before you ever touched the drop down menu or even downloaded the game. They did the wire-framing and skins. NOT YOU. So even though you have assembled the parts and colour palettes into something that appears unique, you are not doing anything but playing a 21st century version of PAPER DOLLS.

My career in art hearkens back to tracing comicbook characters from Capt. America, Spider-man, X-men, et al comic books as a child. I didn't know what a light table was as a 12 year old, but if I took my desk lamp and hovered it inches away from the 20# paperstock that was laying on top of the comic page and inches from my face where the heat from the bulb was nearly burning my cheek, I could trace the silhouette. After doing it several thousand times to various artwork, I realized I could just draw silhouettes and even unique poses of my own from that repetition. I was decorating other student's binders and folders with comic book heroes from scratch. Many years later I was doing portrait, illustration and poster prints as well as work for game companies (no longer tracing, obviously) as they would submit prospectus work to me. I never did attend an art school.  But until now I didn't realize that because I learned by tracing comic books in my early teens that I was in violation of trademark and now I actually owe Marvel for every penny I made doing commissioned artwork. I mean, even the landscape scenics were using information that indirectly used my skills with perspective that I learned from comics. Wow, with the compound interest over the decades, I must owe Marvel MILLIONS!!! I must try to contact every student who's binder I decorated and let them know they too are in possession of illegal trademarked materials and could be pursuant to a law suit!

 

Seriously though. Even though my characters are Generic'd now. I'd still like to know what the standard is or line is drawn as what is to obviously derivative of a license protected character.  The "We'll know a violation when we see it" is dubious. Some guidelines would be appreciated. I let some people know that there were new updated guidelines for Code of Conduct regarding trademarked characters and even made it the Msg of the Day for the SG. So I believe I have done my due diligence.

 

But I thought this is about not drawing unwanted attention to HC from those with deep pockets who could breakup the scrum with NCsoft. But now that I know it's really about eliminating the undesirable uncreative element, it makes a lot more sense to me. So, you don't have to worry about me pointing out that you're costume choice is derivative of a "hero x" from some company, but I guess since this is all about creativity, I will be pointing out to people when their costume sucks. "It's not very creative. You should go play another game. You're not really welcome here."

 

That's much better.

I don't see anyone encouraging that kind of behavior.  If that's what you derived from all of this, I can empathize, but not sympathize.  While there might be some who engage in this kind of behavior, intimating that Homecoming devs, or the majority of players are disposed to do things like this is just untrue.

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, Jimmy said:

Behavior like this will result in disciplinary action against your account.

Yikes!  Can you please clarify?  I have a few friends with cosplays that I just gave a heads up to that the CoC changed to let them know to update anything that might be questionable.  Hope it's ok to do that?

[Jimmy]

Just now, ShardWarrior said:

Yikes!  Can you please clarify?  I have a few friends with cosplays that I just gave a heads up to that the CoC changed to let them know to update anything that might be questionable.  Hope it's ok to do that?

I trimmed the quote a bit to clarify what I meant. You're fine 🙂

[Yomo Kimyata]

26 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Just a side question out of curiosity - do you consider people who make their own costumes to dress up for comic cons and run around professing to be Superman or Batman or Captain America are breaking the law?

Sure, I'll bite.

 

I think that if a con wanted to ban costumes for whatever reason, and you showed up at the door in costume, you should expect to be turned away.  Unless the costume ban in and of itself were deemed illegal.  I'm no constitutional lawyer, but you might have a hard time claiming that not being able to dress up like Deadpool is restricting your freedom of religion or free speech.

 

But this has nothing to do with the fact that HC has the right to enforce violations of copyright infringement, and again, my opinion is irrelevant, since I'm not the one making decisions here.

[Abraxus]

I believe what they were asked to do was to have a policy in place, and a mechanism for enforcement.  However, the degree to which enforcement is applied is a matter of some interpretation, just as it was in the live game.  I don't believe it will actually affect that many, contrary to the degree of outrage that's been expressed so far.  There is no war on those with less creative instincts, or tendencies.  In fact, I believe there has been a lot of supposition on the potential effects of this change, that have created a degree of unnecessary fear.  History does love to repeat itself, so we will wait patiently for those who were concerned about the ramifications to find through the passage of time, that it's not as impactful as they feared.  That's not to say that NOBODY will have their character genericised.  But, I don't believe we are seeing, or will see, the degree of action that many envisioned.  Things will settle back to normal, and we will go on.  Hopefully with everyone still on-board, and more to come, especially if the deal succeeds.

Carry on heroes, villains, and everyone in between!

[jubakumbi]

As I rememeber reading years ago on the CoH Retail Live forums, about ED I think, "There was less outcry when they changed healthcare providers for my international company."

 

Don't get me wrong, I think the whole thing is very silly.

Clones/Homages/Paradies exist everywhere.

Even if You as a player create one, it is not some death sentaence for You, Your Character, or HC.

It just means that if a GM sees it or if a character reports it, you might have to change a name and costume.

That's it, there is no more to it.

 

Since the policy exists, provided HC staff can show they follow it, no IP owner has a leg to stand upon, nor is there any ROI in a legal case.

And, in the worst possible scenario, the player might get thier own C&D if the IP holder is a real 'stickler', expecially if that player streams and makes $.

 

None of these things end in the downfall of HC, provided they play legal ball like they are obviously doing.

 

As I have said previuosly, the only drawback IMO is the moral validation of the creatives that enjoy censuring others.

This exists on all MMOs, because someplace, they have a policy as well.

If anyone really thinks it's more than that, how are DCUO, WoW, STO, SWTOR and other still running?

They have similar policies and enforce them.

 

So, nothing has actually changed, past the fact that the some portion of the playerbase can now be Mr Burns and make the game less fun, just like all other MMOs.

 

Feel free to continue to set things of fire and run around in circles, but IMO that's all that is occuring here.

The HC team is very obviously saying loudly that they will use this policy in the most player friendly way they can.

What more do you need to hear, people?

Anything specific is just trying to rules-lawyer the minutae.

HC has the final say, make what you want, if it gets hit, then you crossed the line.

How is this hard?

Edited September 26, 2019 by jubakumbi
speeling

[ShardWarrior]

16 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Sure, I'll bite.

 

I think that if a con wanted to ban costumes for whatever reason, and you showed up at the door in costume, you should expect to be turned away.  Unless the costume ban in and of itself were deemed illegal.  I'm no constitutional lawyer, but you might have a hard time claiming that not being able to dress up like Deadpool is restricting your freedom of religion or free speech.

 

But this has nothing to do with the fact that HC has the right to enforce violations of copyright infringement, and again, my opinion is irrelevant, since I'm not the one making decisions here.

I don't disagree with anything you said and this is a great answer to a question I didn't ask.    Comic Cons today don't ban costumes, so are the people attending who craft their own costumes and cosplaying themselves as copyrighted characters breaking the law?

[jubakumbi]

3 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I don't disagree with anything you said and this is a great answer to a question I didn't ask.    Comic Cons today don't ban costumes, so are the people attending who craft their own costumes and cosplaying themselves as copyrighted characters breaking the law?

"Breaking the law' is the sticking point.

They are, to a degree, possibly infringing on owned IP - menaing if the cosplay is really good, and they nailed it, then they are infringinng, naything else becomes homage or parody, based on degrees of differences, etc.

 

The 'law' does not come into play until an IP owner decides they want to stop said person.

The 'law' dictates the IP owner has to prove the cosplayer devalued the IP/profited from it, etc., before a 'legal judgement' is made.

 

The fear everyone around here has is the lawyers, not the IP, IMO.

There is some idea of C&D letter 'shutting down' the whole thing over these IP violations.

This is simply a very error filled interpretaion of how things work.

As you well know, this community has gone in circles eating itself over this topic.

Some players are simply conviced the sky will fall if other players make IP based characters and there is no changing thier minds.

Other are convinced players that make homages/clones should be shamed and shunned and there is no changing thier minds.

 

None of this has changed in games and conventions and peoples creativity since the invention of copyright and trademark, it is an endless holy war, IMO.

[Yomo Kimyata]

24 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I don't disagree with anything you said and this is a great answer to a question I didn't ask.    Comic Cons today don't ban costumes, so are the people attending who craft their own costumes and cosplaying themselves as copyrighted characters breaking the law?

I’ll tell you what.  If you can adequately explain what my answer to that question has to do with the price of tea in China, I may even proffer my irrelevant opinion.

 

P.S.  The price of tea in China is TOO LOW!