Everything else sucks compared to AE farming

[jubakumbi]

2 minutes ago, Lines said:

But this thread has never been about this and not many people support getting rid of or nerfing AE. Even the OP didn’t suggest it. The other similar thread currently on page 1 of general did, but is still clearly a minority opinion. I think it’s a long way off representing the community, who by and large either use AE or are ambivalent.

 

These conversations prompt good discussion about how people play the game and the challenge and reward of older/non-AE content. I like talking about that; it’s interesting to me.

Having a conversation is fine.

The entire thread is predicated on the AE being 'too good'.

That is, IMO, a subjective opinion based off of a bad assumption, on many levels.

Here and elsewhere ideas are presented to 'fix' this, as you point out, but I don't look at each thread as some sacrosanct court case that cannot bleed to another, my thoughts go where they go.

 

IMO, there is no problem there is nothing to fix, and I find it hilarious to watch these things go in circles.

 

As for the comment I made that you felt you had to force me out of the community over, that's how I see it.

When we allow these 'fixes' to start, where does it end?

 

How is that not part of the conversation, even if you don't like my tone and choose to tell me to f'off?

I do not have to conform to anyones boundries of thought.

[Lines]

1 minute ago, jubakumbi said:

As for the comment I made that you felt you had to force me out of the community over, that's how I see it.

When we allow these 'fixes' to start, where does it end?

 

How is that not part of the conversation, even if you don't like my tone and choose to tell me to f'off?

I do not have to conform to anyones boundries of thought.

Because the suggestion to leave the game if players find things they dislike is essentially the same.

 

I have plenty I don’t like about the game and will raise them as they’re discussed, and I don’t want to be told to leave the game for that.

[brigg]

I've never understood why people have a problem with things like AE. If it's not for them, and they don't use it, what's the problem? You can't tell me it's taking away from them, because if they exist, then others do too who share the same interests. Those individuals are available to run the same content they do. So where's the issue? And you can't tell me people farming AE are getting more rewards, because if I want rewards such as merits, I do Story Arcs or Group content. 

 

We're all different. Different views, different methods, different upbringings. It's sad that we've come to a point in life that where if someone who doesn't agree with you, you have to dismiss them entirely. Is that the fault of the Facebook era? Someone says something you don't agree with, and you drop them as a friend? Our differences are what make us unique. Some people like the journey. Others like the destination. Neither is wrong. Just different. There's nothing wrong with different.

 

If the OP enjoys leveling up, then yes, AE is perfect for that individual. But as stated, if OP thinks AE is boring, there's always something different to do as a balance. They would just have to find what works for them. For me, I enjoy PL'ing in AE - because I want to hurry up and play my character as I intended to. The grind isn't fun for me. That goes for real life. I love going to the beach or the amusement park or even the mall to shop, but I absolutely hate the drive. For some, the drive is fun. I'm not the type to just go for a drive. That doesn't mean I don't like those people or think their way is wrong - just different. 

[jubakumbi]

1 hour ago, Lines said:

Because the suggestion to leave the game if players find things they dislike is essentially the same.

 

I have plenty I don’t like about the game and will raise them as they’re discussed, and I don’t want to be told to leave the game for that.

The only people I tell to not play are those that seem to be at-risk mentally/emotionally.

Where have I suggested not playing the game?

I don't play portions of the game because they do not interest me for whatever reason, how is suggesting such to others bad?

Disliking and avoiding a certain aspect is a far cry from 'get-the-f-out'.

 

Discuss anything you don't like all you want, that is the point of the forum, but don't think for a moment all the opinions you see will jive with yours, and twisting the words of others won't help the conversation.

 

This is not a Retail Live game, it is a rogue deployment of code that has less than perfect lifecycle.

Basically, if you really think something is wrong, learn how to fix it in the code, or if you think the deployment is wrong, deploy your own server(s).

The rest is just people bitching at volunteers for being nice enough to provide a place to play, IMO.

[Lines]

Your protestation confused me, because I took

5 hours ago, jubakumbi said:

 

If you don't like a part of the game, don't play it.

to clearly mean Don't play [the game].

 

Which I snapped at with a retort of the same extreme sentiment but about being part of the community if you feel that way about this one niche. I found that extremely narrow minded and dismissive of any critique to AE or any part of the game.

 

I realize you meant Don't play [the part].

 

And exclaimed a long 'ooooooooooh', and will profusely apologise. I'm sorry for misreading that. That's a whole different notion and I agree with it, obviously.

I stand by that the notion of nerfing AE isn't the popular one, though it's bound to come up regularly, so I think it was still misplaced to be cracked up by 'the community'.

[Snakebit]

On 10/14/2019 at 6:54 PM, TheSpiritFox said:

. This game has replay value in part because of how well I can fund alts with a solidly built purpled out farmer.

This is the real McCoy. 

 

If I had to grind any toon like my first 50 (fire fire blaster started in Issue 0, had 1250+ hours on it) I wouldn't play... Farming as it stands right now is a pretty good sweet spot without /makeme50. Which I don't really want but wouldn't complain about. 

[EmmySky]

AE playing is still playing.  I don't door sit although I allow them if that's what floats their boat.  Take that back...my first time in AE I did door sit and chatted.  Now I run with the farmer...am sk'd up and do a bit of damage and veng bait if needed.  If people want a /makeme50..hey you do you..but I play old-school and AE school.  As long as I have my game back (love love love) I play any way I can or want depending on my mood.  

 

I think a lot of these threads about "nerf x" can be answered with "you do you and I do me".  

[The_Cheeseman]

16 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

Just about every single product on the market is trying to coerce people into spending money they don't need to.  You can apply this to cell phones, social media apps, cracker jacks, Kinder eggs, trading cards, blind box toys and collectibles... the list goes on.  It also proceeds from the very false assumption everyone opening a box is doing so solely for a top-tier item.  Over in STO, opening a box is the way to get Lobi crystals (which every box drops) to spend in the Lobi store for various things.  You also get other items of value you can use for crafting and such or sell on the exchange.

 

I’m not sure you understand my argument, here. What do cell phones have to do with exploiting operant conditioning? Also, there is a huge difference between marketing a product and coercing a customer. In the former, the seller means to generate demand by demonstrating how the product can be valuable to the consumer. In the latter, the seller is taking advantage of the consumer by preying on their psychological vulnerabilities.

 

The main draw of loot boxes is the random chance to get a valuable reward. Putting a guaranteed currency in them is irrelevant to my point, that’s just a consolation prize.

[ShardWarrior]

5 hours ago, The_Cheeseman said:

What do cell phones have to do with exploiting operant conditioning?

To be honest, I'm not sure you even understand what it is you are trying to say.  Absolutely cell phones are designed to take advantage of the user to get them addicted.  This should not come as a surprise to anyone.  Just do some very simple Google searching and you'll quickly find a wealth of information about how cell phone makers, social media and app makers hire "attention engineers" who use methods right out of Las Vegas casinos to make their products as addictive as possible. 

5 hours ago, The_Cheeseman said:

The main draw of loot boxes is the random chance to get a valuable reward. Putting a guaranteed currency in them is irrelevant to my point, that’s just a consolation prize.

In the example I provided, every lootbox in STO has a reward of value.  It may or may not be the one you wanted, but you did get something of value.

Edited October 17, 2019 by ShardWarrior

[Chitlingrits]

"Pocket D,

the best AE,

the best AE for me and thee!"

 

The AE in Dimension Drop is the best.  A trainer and a P2W store and a vault (if you don't open the interface from the command prompt) in addition to the usual insp store that you can dump mission rewards on if you don't feel like /ah and dropping them on the market ... all without zoning.

 

Additionally you can easily switch sides to join any pickup group regardless of alignment.

 

After you get your portable crafting table from the P2W store then you literally have zero reason to ever leave.

 

On the social side I'm surprised that more players don't congregate there.  In addition to the rp'ing and chatting it's a great opportunity for players with their low-viability "concept" characters with wicked style and killer looks but unfortunate dps capability to get some quick pl'ing and upgrade their toons to a point where maybe they can actually shut down a blue minion or even a white one.

 

There's also some true generosity from the farmers inasmuch as a player running /+8 doesn't need anyone else in the group to achieve a dense spawn and if they offer to let you join then it's truly out of a sense of social generosity and goodness.

 

With respect to the putative monotony of running the same city map 02 or shiva fragment missions repeatedly well you get a different series of random insp drops as the mobs succumb so continuously clicking them results in a different elevated experience every run through.  Also you can mix-up the order of boss spawn elimination and go clockwise or counter clockwise or just randomly through the lot.  Between the varied inspiration drops and the order of spawn shut down the variety is truly large.

 

Pocket D is the place to be.

[The_Cheeseman]

On 10/17/2019 at 8:53 AM, ShardWarrior said:

To be honest, I'm not sure you even understand what it is you are trying to say.  Absolutely cell phones are designed to take advantage of the user to get them addicted.  This should not come as a surprise to anyone.  Just do some very simple Google searching and you'll quickly find a wealth of information about how cell phone makers, social media and app makers hire "attention engineers" who use methods right out of Las Vegas casinos to make their products as addictive as possible. 

In the example I provided, every lootbox in STO has a reward of value.  It may or may not be the one you wanted, but you did get something of value.

Ahh, okay, I see what you mean about, now: cultivating habituation via incentivizing periodic engagement. Thank you for clarifying, that is, indeed, an example of what I am talking about--inhumane design that manipulates people into potentially unhealthy behaviors.

I strongly disagree that such techniques are ubiquitous outside of information technology, but even if that were the case, it doesn't make it ethical. People get justifiably upset when they learn about how these sorts of features manipulate them, but many of those technologies and platforms are so new, we haven't yet decided how we, as a society, will deal with it.

I also think it's important to make a distinction with products for which collectibility, and thus randomization, are part of the core engagement. In the case of trading cards and blind bags, the reason people enjoy them is precisely because of the intermittent reward schedule--they're for people who enjoy that sort of gambling. Most loot boxes in games contain rewards that may enhance the experience, but are not integral to the core engagement. They're literally just taking stuff that we used to get in games for free (cosmetics, power-ups, convenience features, etc.), and not just parceling it out for extra money, but intentionally including a randomized system in which you're very likely to have to pay significantly more than the reward is really worth (what you would have been willing to pay to buy it, outright) in order to obtain it.

A good example would be mobile "gatcha" games, wherein part of the core engagement is collecting characters/items/whatever from a random pool. In such games, the randomization is a core gameplay mechanic upon which the entire experience rests, not a mere gimmick to make people spend more than they normally would on fluff. The same could be said of normal gambling--some people enjoy the experience of gambling even if they don't win. Loot boxes in games aren't generally designed to be fun to open for their own sake, they are a vehicle to deliver a product, not the product itself.

As for whether you get something of value or not from a loot box, I don't think that's particularly relevant to my point. The issue is incentives: what motivates the player to buy the loot boxes? If the loot boxes are primarily intended to be a means of accumulating some sort of currency or similar reward that is core to the game, then the randomized rewards are just a bonus. That's fine, consumers will be able to judge whether the primary reward is worth the money they'd need to spend on boxes, and be happy with any extra stuff that comes with it (like the Cracker Jack boxes, assuming the person buys them because they like Cracker Jacks). The issue is when the primary motivation to purchase loot boxes is to obtain some rare, nominally valuable reward that could be sold individually. That is when you get into coercion territory, in my opinion.

We're already seeing culture slowly steering away from such inhumane design in games. Early MMOs were lousy with Skinner Box mechanics and forced habituation, but as players caught on, such features are becoming less prevalent. It may be something that requires a generational transition to finally see the problem in proper context, but I am optimistic.

[Chance Jackson]

On 9/25/2019 at 3:53 PM, Black Zot said:

 

About time someone pointed out the family of elephants playing cards around the coffee table.  Without farmers, trying to make a decent IO build would be a lost cause, because the supply of goods to make said build from either would exist but cost half the inf cap to buy, or wouldn't exist at all.  Hell, even with the rampant farming on live, good luck getting more than the most dirt-cheap stuff without a farmer toon of your own.

 

CoX's economy is currently in a better state than I've ever seen ANY game economy, and farmers are a big part of why it stays that way.  Take your nerfs and shove them.

Seriously I only had 1 fully kitted toon on live and it cost me near 2 billion, thank God for the "last conversion" exploit or I never would have made the 2 bill in the first place 

[ShardWarrior]

7 hours ago, The_Cheeseman said:

The issue is incentives: what motivates the player to buy the loot boxes?

As you said, it's dependent upon the implementation and the individual.  As in the example I gave earlier, in STO opening boxes is how one collects lobi crystals.  Anything else is a nice bonus.  I know a great many fleetmates there who open boxes just to collect Lobi to buy things from the Lobi store.  "Gambling" for a rare item isn't part of the equation for them.  Of course there are those who blow lots of money trying to gamble for the rare item, but they are victims of their own making.  Had they done their research, they would have found it is infinitely cheaper to buy keys and sell them on the exchange, then buy the rare item they wanted.

 

The way EA tried to implement lootboxes is much, much different and should never be allowed IMO.

 

 

[Anaku]

On 9/25/2019 at 10:23 AM, jubakumbi said:

IMO, this is imply trying to make the game something it is not....

 

This game is about making a (super) hero and fightin' bad guys.

In a comics style universe.

 

We have a danger room where you can get ready to fight crime, quickly.

We now have a world where acquiring the eq needed is easy.

 

So where is the problem?

If you want to play the game gritty and hard, you can.

If you want to go into the danger room and PL to the end, you can.

If you want to use all or none of the rewards, you can.

 

All based around personal responcibility and self discipline, rather than being coerced or forced to play the game a certain way to get the character you have in mind.

No one forces anyone to get all the things as fast as possible other than ones self.

 

 

This is probably the best comment I have seen. Just play the game.

[Megajoule]

On 10/16/2019 at 7:46 AM, swordchucks said:

The fundamental problem with AE farming, in its current state, is that it is the most rewarding activity you can engage in by a large margin.

It's the activity that gives the most xp and inf per unit time.  But those aren't the "rewards" I seek.  Heck, for me, farming is one of the least "rewarding"; it's standing at the door, or following along and tossing in buffs, and watching numbers fly and bars fill.  The few times I've been PL'd (by a friend, or someone graciously offering for Support Sundays, or whatever), it was just something to get a new alt to SO level and what I consider basic functionality; that's where the "real" game opens up for me, and I thank my host kindly and go play it.

 

Edited October 20, 2019 by Megajoule

[SaintD]

I've been running the Bads In Space EXP Farm recently, to PL toons up to level 18 or 20ish. Then I play them. The simple fact of the matter is that I've played the game so much, I've played 1-20 so much (crippling altitis), that being able to shove past them quickly has revitalized my interest in trying new characters.

Even better, I've actually been trying primaries and secondaries I never did before on Live, precisely because getting the ball rolling on them was so arduous and I never considered just farming them up. Dear God, getting an Arachnos Soldier to 24 is truly Recluse's greatest test of your worthiness. And you gotta do it twice to have one of each branch.

I've also found it super useful to just....fill in a level or two if I want to. If I finish Penelope Yin at 18.....well, I can radio mission up to Doc Delilah or farm it up in a fraction of the time.

Edited October 20, 2019 by SaintD

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 10/18/2019 at 10:59 PM, Chance Jackson said:

Seriously I only had 1 fully kitted toon on live and it cost me near 2 billion, thank God for the "last conversion" exploit or I never would have made the 2 bill in the first place 

Sorry but what? On Live the best method was to just buy LOTG specials with merits and sell them on the ah for inf. It wasnt any dif then what we do now on HC except maybe a wee bit faster because of the new E Con and E Cat market.  Still even a casual weekend player who only did a TF or a few story arcs a weekend could full trick out a character in a few months.

 

I mean purple sets are great and all but it really isnt like you need them to push a  build into pretty extreme power levels. In fact they tend to be most favored by regular exemplar players because of their sets bonuses staying active. If your one of those never exemp once you cap types you really dont need anything above SOs because incarnate abilities are so very potent and allow even a very bad build with the most basic slotting to hold their own in just about all lvl 45-50 content with ease.

 

The fact you even mention an exploit a real legit game harming exploit as a positive really does not help or position but actually casts a negative light on what kind of gamer you are.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

3 hours ago, SaintD said:

I've been running the Bads In Space EXP Farm recently, to PL toons up to level 18 or 20ish. Then I play them. The simple fact of the matter is that I've played the game so much, I've played 1-20 so much (crippling altitis), that being able to shove past them quickly has revitalized my interest in trying new characters.

Even better, I've actually been trying primaries and secondaries I never did before on Live, precisely because getting the ball rolling on them was so arduous and I never considered just farming them up. Dear God, getting an Arachnos Soldier to 24 is truly Recluse's greatest test of your worthiness. And you gotta do it twice to have one of each branch.

I've also found it super useful to just....fill in a level or two if I want to. If I finish Penelope Yin at 18.....well, I can radio mission up to Doc Delilah or farm it up in a fraction of the time.

Why not just do the sewer run then and get the temp buffs?  I usually first street sweep for a few fast levels to have a few powers, jump in the sewer shiite to get the accuracy buff which will take away all the hassle of accuracy slotting till good IO bonuses can be grabbed around lvl 17. Then heck run TFs and arcs for merits.

 

I just dont see the need for PL farming for the low level range you mention. And see PL farms as one of the reasons for why people who want to have AE for actual fun content have meaningful reward XP cant have it.

 

Because that is the crux of it all. Because of the sheer numbers reward wise farmers are raking in xp and drops it means they have to keep the base reward so low as to make it basically content you only run for fun and no gain for a content player rather then a content locust. That is what the content locust; speed runners cant seem to grasp. People who dont want to speed through content still want their time to feel rewarded no less then those who play purely for rewards.  But we also want to enjoy the content, have interesting stories to play through and break up the same ol same ol of the vanilla content.

 

As it stands now the rewards still are way above avg for the farmers while way too little for the game players.

 

This is why I bring up the idea of rewards based on actual time investment in content. While also supporting auto fifty for those who are just plain ol tired of the leveling game. As far as I see making it so be it an hour ona  tf or an hour inside 1 mission that you struggle through its still being in the game, playing the game. And really an hour playing is an hour playing.

 

Bloody hell Id even make it so when you street sweep and save a citizen from a mugging they have a small chance to reward you with a single merit. Why? Because its still playing the game, still being a hero in the city.

 

[THEDarkTyger]

On 10/16/2019 at 2:09 PM, brigg said:

I've never understood why people have a problem with things like AE. If it's not for them, and they don't use it, what's the problem?

*Shrug* Best I can figure is some people view every game they play as a competition with the other players. If someone else can shortcut to the top, they feel slighted. I can understand if this shortcut is via shelling out real cash, because catering to advantage the rich players just sucks. But through in-game systems? As long as it's not exploiting a bug or otherwise straight up cheating, fine.

[Blastit]

3 hours ago, THEDarkTyger said:

*Shrug* Best I can figure is some people view every game they play as a competition with the other players. If someone else can shortcut to the top, they feel slighted. I can understand if this shortcut is via shelling out real cash, because catering to advantage the rich players just sucks. But through in-game systems? As long as it's not exploiting a bug or otherwise straight up cheating, fine.

 

There are of course the concerns about the rest of the game being left emptier, because running AE generates more rewards per time spent, so there are fewer people hanging out naturally at any given spot. It's like DFB muscling out a lot of pre-20 content.

[Lines]

15 minutes ago, Blastit said:

 

There are of course the concerns about the rest of the game being left emptier, because running AE generates more rewards per time spent, so there are fewer people hanging out naturally at any given spot. It's like DFB muscling out a lot of pre-20 content.

I think it’s a fair concern, to which the resolution is to look at how the rest of the game can reward players, rather than nerfing AE, which only alienates a playerbase.

 

Bentley’s barking up the right tree, I think. Only the idea of merits-per-minute is too easily exploitable.

 

I’d be keen to look at how street sweeping can become rewarding for all levels, especially in hazard zones. You could have entire leagues clearing out the place and all benefitting from it. Could a new kind of merit, a bit like vanguard merits, be awarded for them and for those to buy things unique to them, or be traded for reward merits?

Edited October 20, 2019 by Lines

[SaintD]

8 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Why not just do the sewer run then and get the temp buffs?  I usually first street sweep for a few fast levels to have a few powers, jump in the sewer shiite to get the accuracy buff which will take away all the hassle of accuracy slotting till good IO bonuses can be grabbed around lvl 17. Then heck run TFs and arcs for merits.

 

I just dont see the need for PL farming for the low level range you mention. And see PL farms as one of the reasons for why people who want to have AE for actual fun content have meaningful reward XP cant have it.

 

Because that is the crux of it all. Because of the sheer numbers reward wise farmers are raking in xp and drops it means they have to keep the base reward so low as to make it basically content you only run for fun and no gain for a content player rather then a content locust. That is what the content locust; speed runners cant seem to grasp. People who dont want to speed through content still want their time to feel rewarded no less then those who play purely for rewards.  But we also want to enjoy the content, have interesting stories to play through and break up the same ol same ol of the vanilla content.

 

As it stands now the rewards still are way above avg for the farmers while way too little for the game players.

 

This is why I bring up the idea of rewards based on actual time investment in content. While also supporting auto fifty for those who are just plain ol tired of the leveling game. As far as I see making it so be it an hour ona  tf or an hour inside 1 mission that you struggle through its still being in the game, playing the game. And really an hour playing is an hour playing.

 

Bloody hell Id even make it so when you street sweep and save a citizen from a mugging they have a small chance to reward you with a single merit. Why? Because its still playing the game, still being a hero in the city.

 

Because I literally haven't even seen a call for a sewer team in the months I started playing again, neither is DfB consistently available, my internet is extremely unreliable from China so I can't team anyway, AE is consistent, and above all of those reasons, the absolute apex of my desire to solo, is just enjoying the game and never having to rely on or interact with a whiny, selfish asshole like you calling me a 'content locust' because I'm not street sweeping in the world where he can see me as a piece of in-game furniture for his own satisfaction, instead of street sweeping an AE farm that lets me get back to gameplay that's meaningful to me as quickly as possible.

Solo rules because you suck. I'll be in the AE, see you never.

Edited October 21, 2019 by SaintD

[Schizophobia]

11 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

it means they have to keep the base reward so low as to make it basically content you only run for fun and no gain for a content player rather then a content locust. That is what the content locust; speed runners cant seem to grasp

i generally prefer to assume the best about people, but comparing other players to vermin, um. and juxtaposing 'farmers' and 'game players.' that might be letting the mask slip a bit, my dude. are you sure you're concerned about 'content players' (whatever that means, since afaik if you're playing the game you're consuming content) or are you just resentful of people who farm? cause the latter is certainly... something.

 

being charitable and ignoring whatever bullshit is going on with that noise, your problem is that AE rewards are too low for people who want to play story-based ae missions. that's legit, sure, it sucks. but: you seem to want to have your cake and eat it, too. do you want to enjoy content, or do you want to keep pace with farmers? there's sub-optimal ways to accrue experience and other rewards, that's always going to be true, i'm afraid.

 

and again, an auto 50 button is at least an attempt at a solution you're offering, but it doesn't solve the core problem. influence, salvage, enhancements and recipes will still be farmable. and people will still farm for them. especially if full rewards are restored for AE. so your solution might exacerbate the problem you're upset about, or just move it laterally instead of increasing or decreasing the time-to-reward ratio between farming and other activities.

 

but if you're going to be abusive i can't say i care about what you want or how you feel. so i beg of you to maybe work on that and sort yourself if that's where you are.

[Abraxus]

I said it in another thread, and I will reiterate here.  Plenty of room for ALL play styles, and preferences in this game, without the need to alter it to favor one, and prohibit another.  It's all up to the individual as to how, or if, they utilize farming, mission content, TFs, or street sweeping to accomplish what they wish for their respective characters.