A Moderate Change to Knockback

[n00baka]

TL;DR:

Spoiler

TL;DR: All incidental Knockback powers should have their magnitude reduced to Knockdown levels for even conning minions and higher. The values of Knockdown powers should be high enough that a single TO (possibly DO?) Enhancement would bump the power to Knockback instead. Powers whose primary function is to knock a target back should remain as Knockback. 

 

 

I don't like proposing this particular suggestion, but it is something I've grown to question over time. Pre-Sunset there were many threads regarding Knockback and Knockdown, much as there are today, where both sides would go head to head discussing how best to resolve their conflicting ideas about how the powers should work. The thing I've noticed over the years is that the portion of the community that loved Knockback was smaller then the portion that disliked it, though both sides of the issue were fairly equal in the strength of their opinions. That is certainly an assumption created from anecdotal evidence, but I feel it holds true today. This is my first assumption, and probably won't be my last, for this topic. I've also tried to ensure that any changes I suggest be something that I've seen done in the past, however this will probably be another assumption on my part for things I remember incorrectly.

 

This leads into my primary suggestion:

Powers that only provide an inconsistent amount of Knockback should have their magnitude reduced in level to cause Knockdown when facing even conning minions with no resistance to KB. To clarify what I mean by inconsistent Knockback, I specifically mean any power whose primary affect is not the Knockback itself, but has a less than 100% chance of Knockback when the power hits a target. For example, Luminous Detonation (human form PB Targeted AoE power) always deals damage when it hits, but has a 50% chance to Knockback at a 1.96 magnitude. I would consider this incidental Knockback as the power's primary function is AoE damage.

 

My secondary suggestion would be:

Raise the magnitude of incidental Knockback powers to the point where a single TO (or possibly DO) would cause the power to go from Knockdown to Knockback. I suggest this high of a value for a couple reasons, but the biggest is that people like Knockback. I want it to be easy to go from Knockdown to Knockback, especially with sets that provide Knockback in combination with other effects, such as Damage or Accuracy. This reduces the amount of 'waste' one feels when slotting to get the Knockback in a power the player wants. This will cause lower level enemies to get knocked back instead of down, but that's exactly where we are now with these powers.

 

My reasoning for suggesting this change is that an entire slot must be dedicated on a per power basis to change from Knockback to Knockdown. With (the assumed) majority of players preferring Knockdown, this reverses the situation so a (again, assumed) smaller percentage of the players have to make the sacrifice. With the secondary suggestion, this would reduce the slot cost by allowing Set IOs that provide even a third of an SO's effect, such as the Knockback/Damage/Endurance, to turn a Knockdown into a Knockback while providing extra effects. As a personal note, one of the few things I dislike about Knockback is when it is incidental. When a spawn of 10 is hit by an energy blast, and half go flying off, I get annoyed.

 

And finally, I'd like to bring a few counter points to this. This is an effective nerf to Knockback, almost across the board. Longer distance means more time the NPC is unable to attack and this would change that. I've tried to minimize that as much as I can, so would love to hear from people who love Knockback to get additional perspective. I also have no idea how PvP would be effected by this suggested change. Like, at all. I don't PvP, and don't know how Knockback is handled there, so I'd love some input on that front if possible. In the end, I want reasons why this idea won't work. Feedback is for finding problems, and I look forward to hearing them.

[macskull]

I like this idea.

[0th Power]

If I am reading this correctly, the KB>KD "slot tax" is now a KD>KB "slot tax."

 

If so, I am against it.  I like my KB and not having to slot for it.

[Rathulfr]

/jranger

 

[_NOPE_]

/JRanger

[Steampunkette]

I would not be in favor of this change. Knockback is an important aspect of City of Heroes, even  if it can be a little annoying at times. Particularly to those who after 15 years still haven't learned to accept that Knockback is a thing they can fight around. It's too useful of a tool and too thematically tied to superpowers to just dump it.

 

What I -would- be in favor of is having the randomness removed. 100% Knock chance on every one of those attacks all the time, forever. It would make combats a bit more predictable and those powers a bit more useful. Maybe tie a "Knock Protection" mechanic applied 1 second after the hit lands to the target to avoid KB-locking all the NPCs forever.

[ShardWarrior]

15 hours ago, n00baka said:

The thing I've noticed over the years is that the portion of the community that loved Knockback was smaller then the portion that disliked it

Based on what?

 

As for the suggestion, if I am understanding it properly - no.

[Bossk_Hogg]

I personally think Knockback should be knockdown for melee powers. They went through them once and changed it for tank/scrappers on most powers. Unfortunately a few slipped through. Thunderstrike (which is crap for other reasons), Solar Flare, and maybe a couple others I'm missing. 

 

Beyond that, make a null the gull setting and let people pick their own level. If knockback is a bonus, then it shouldn't have a tax to turn off. If people want some kb and some kd, they can use slots for granularity,

 

I do think the "small chance of kb" powers in energy blast should have some kind of mechanic to make them more consistent, as random knockback is poor mitigation given how many sets have actual holds. However that is an energy blast issue specifically.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

yes! null the gull should have a setting to change your KB to KD if u choose just like speed boost. Putting this option in the game doesn't change anyone's existing builds or gameplay unless they choose it. People who argue against this are arguing against customization, which is really the bread and butter of COH anyway

[Shadowfane]

3 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

yes! null the gull should have a setting to change your KB to KD if u choose just like speed boost. Putting this option in the game doesn't change anyone's existing builds or gameplay unless they choose it. People who argue against this are arguing against customization, which is really the bread and butter of COH anyway

Arguing against Null the Gull as an option is not "arguing against customisation" - it's arguing against what would inevitably happen after that, which is every character with knockback in their attacks being asked if they've changed it at Null the Gull, and if not, they get kicked from the group.

[Steampunkette]

26 minutes ago, Shadowfane said:

Arguing against Null the Gull as an option is not "arguing against customisation" - it's arguing against what would inevitably happen after that, which is every character with knockback in their attacks being asked if they've changed it at Null the Gull, and if not, they get kicked from the group.

^ That

 

There are people who cannot stand the idea of moving. Of taking 2 tenths of a second out of their perfect attack chain to reposition and resume. Who see that delay as a major loss, a central pillar of frustration where someone else is trying to -ruin- their game.

 

And those people are not quiet about it, by and large. They might start out with a helpfulish 'Use the corner for KB' or 'Only KB things to me'. But if that doesn't instantly curb the KB? They tend to rant and rave, and god forbid they get the Star 'cause they'll kick someone without a word and when people notice at the end of a big dust up that one of their teammates was kicked they'll ask why and get told "Too much KB"

 

I want to be SUPER CLEAR, here. I'm not saying everyone who dislikes KB does this. I'm saying that the people who boot people from teams because of KB are like this. It's a much smaller category of people.

[Itikar]

I am starting in these days an alt, a FF/NRG Defender in Praetoria, so mostly solo, and I have to admit I am liking and enjoying the knockback. By sending the critter away it gives me an additional mitigation and on the whole I find the whole knockback thing and the tactics linked to it, pretty fun and interesting to learn. It's really a game in the game, please do not remove it.

[nihilii]

I don't use any knockback myself but the suggestion sounds like a big no-no for the following reason:

On 9/30/2019 at 6:24 PM, 0th Power said:

If I am reading this correctly, the KB>KD "slot tax" is now a KD>KB "slot tax."

 

If so, I am against it.  I like my KB and not having to slot for it.

Players who currently enjoy knockback should not be punished for it, especially as their choice is (arguably) mechanically "inferior", or at least harder to handle in optimized scenarios.

I think such a suggestion would only make sense if coupled with a buff to knockback enhancements. i.e., all knockback enhancements should be damage/knockback (giving the same bonus as a pure damage enhancement) and all IO knockback sets should have purple strength on their set bonuses.

[pattycake]

The one thing I like to mention about KD/KB is there isn’t any secondary damage from the act of falling. I can see what the OP is trying to suggest, going from kd to kb based on how you invest into is a cool concept. Because if you can increase the magnitude by investing by IO; for example, the more KD you invest the more secondary “fall” damage the target takes. 

 

Off note, how come they never added knock back target into other targets. I’d like to see a bowling patch IMO.

[Bossk_Hogg]

2 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

^ That

 

There are people who cannot stand the idea of moving. Of taking 2 tenths of a second out of their perfect attack chain to reposition and resume. Who see that delay as a major loss, a central pillar of frustration where someone else is trying to -ruin- their game.

 

And those people are not quiet about it, by and large. They might start out with a helpfulish 'Use the corner for KB' or 'Only KB things to me'. But if that doesn't instantly curb the KB? They tend to rant and rave, and god forbid they get the Star 'cause they'll kick someone without a word and when people notice at the end of a big dust up that one of their teammates was kicked they'll ask why and get told "Too much KB"

 

I want to be SUPER CLEAR, here. I'm not saying everyone who dislikes KB does this. I'm saying that the people who boot people from teams because of KB are like this. It's a much smaller category of people.

Slippery slope. Also wrong, given that KB players wouldn't be wanted on those teams to begin with in the current setup. What was the point you were making? That peacebringers and energy blast users might get more groups?

 

Also, the "pro knockback" crowd has as many bad actors, who are only in it for their own enjoyment. God forbid they hold off a second with nova until after the inferno lands to completely wipe out the spawn rather than lead with it and scatter everything half dead. Or not open with Solar Flare to hose anyone else's attempts to debuff or use their AE's. Any suggestion to act as a team player is met with bristling hostility.

 

The Null the Gull option lets people play their own way and is the best compromise between two opposing camps.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

29 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Slippery slope. Also wrong, given that KB players wouldn't be wanted on those teams to begin with in the current setup. What was the point you were making? That peacebringers and energy blast users might get more groups?

 

Also, the "pro knockback" crowd has as many bad actors, who are only in it for their own enjoyment. God forbid they hold off a second with nova until after the inferno lands to completely wipe out the spawn rather than lead with it and scatter everything half dead. Or not open with Solar Flare to hose anyone else's attempts to debuff or use their AE's. Any suggestion to act as a team player is met with bristling hostility.

 

The Null the Gull option lets people play their own way and is the best compromise between two opposing camps.

Exactly, took the words right out of my mouth

Edited October 2, 2019 by Saiyajinzoningen

[TheAdjustor]

Personally I would like to see chance of KB/KD/KU either be just KB/KU/KD or something else entirely. There is such a vast gap in mitigation between it happening and having it be a chance of it's not funny. It's especially bad with blaster power sets, where the chance of is unreliable mitigation as well as scattering the mobs out of AoE areas.

[Rathulfr]

8 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Slippery slope. Also wrong, given that KB players wouldn't be wanted on those teams to begin with in the current setup. What was the point you were making? That peacebringers and energy blast users might get more groups?

 

Also, the "pro knockback" crowd has as many bad actors, who are only in it for their own enjoyment. God forbid they hold off a second with nova until after the inferno lands to completely wipe out the spawn rather than lead with it and scatter everything half dead. Or not open with Solar Flare to hose anyone else's attempts to debuff or use their AE's. Any suggestion to act as a team player is met with bristling hostility.

 

The Null the Gull option lets people play their own way and is the best compromise between two opposing camps.

I respectfully disagree with this opinion.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, TheAdjustor said:

Personally I would like to see chance of KB/KD/KU either be just KB/KU/KD or something else entirely. There is such a vast gap in mitigation between it happening and having it be a chance of it's not funny. It's especially bad with blaster power sets, where the chance of is unreliable mitigation as well as scattering the mobs out of AoE areas.

Hard agree. In our scrapper thread, there is a substantial difference in safety with Claws vs say, Axe thanks to one have guaranteed knocks vs not. 

 

I have posted a thread on this prior, but I do think that knockback actually should be buffed.

 

TL,DR:

Knockback is a superhero trope that unfortunately gets a raw deal in CoH. Knockdown and Knockup are often better due to the interactions with other team mates and even your own powers unless you can skillfully manipulate the map and position. That latter part is not reliable in the least for many factors.

 

In superhero media you often see the baddies defeated asap once they are knocked away, or they take a good minute to get back up, or impacting a wall / other guy adds to the pain. Making Knockback powers have bonus damage or a longer "get up" / short stun when knocked based on knockback mag would be nice!

[MunkiLord]

If a Null the Gull option were to be added, it shouldn't change the KB to KD or anything like that. It should completely remove the effect with nothing to replace the lost utility. If someone wants KD to KB, there are already options for that.

[TheAdjustor]

30 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

If a Null the Gull option were to be added, it shouldn't change the KB to KD or anything like that. It should completely remove the effect with nothing to replace the lost utility. If someone wants KD to KB, there are already options for that.

That should be an option. I can't see it being the only one though depending on the set that can be one heck of a lot of slots to tie up.

[MunkiLord]

2 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

That should be an option. I can't see it being the only one though depending on the set that can be one heck of a lot of slots to tie up.

That's how it currently is and I think it's a good system with appropriate cost.

[TheAdjustor]

1 minute ago, MunkiLord said:

That's how it currently is and I think it's a good system with appropriate cost.

We disagree. The nicest I can say about the current system is it's much better than live. Live being like it or lump it.