Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for October 1st, 2019

[oldskool]

15 hours ago, siolfir said:

"if something isn't broke, fix it until it is."

[Infinitum]

12 hours ago, Puma said:

Except changing modifiers or increasing the AoE caps doesn't allow a tank to get near brute damage levels with "a few external buffs"...it makes them near them permanently. 

And there isnt one thing wrong with that because its 2ATs with a similar mission, with slightly different playstyles that will accomplish the same goal now with parity.

 

12 hours ago, Puma said:

If the proposal were JUST giving tankers a buff that applied when teaming I'd have no problems.  As is, its basically just making them brutes. Maybe even better than brutes. 

No, it doesnt make them brutes, it makes them better tankers with better alignment with where the games focus currently is both will have parity with a role that is accomplished by both in similar but slightly different means.

[Gobbledigook]

13 hours ago, Puma said:

Except changing modifiers or increasing the AoE caps doesn't allow a tank to get near brute damage levels with "a few external buffs"...it makes them near them permanently. 

If the proposal were JUST giving tankers a buff that applied when teaming I'd have no problems.  As is, its basically just making them brutes. Maybe even better than brutes. 

IMO the best answer is what they did with defenders, who faced a similar problem: up their damage and they just outshine blasters.  As is, they were too weak and hard to solo. 
So give them a solo buff and a team buff.  Do the same with tankers.  When solo, tankers get a +dmg buff and perhaps even an AoE radius increase.  When teamed, give them a taunt increase and team +res aura. 

Done. 

So the Brute will be pretty much just as good as a Tanker survival in a team but a Tanker is not allowed to do near Brute damage in a team, only in solo play?

 

They do not need a team +resist aura, we have support classes for that, lets not diminish support even further. They Taunt!

 

The Tanker needs more damage. The only argument that should be here is....... HOW MUCH!

[golstat2003]

5 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

So the Brute will be pretty much just as good as a Tanker survival in a team but a Tanker is not allowed to do near Brute damage in a team, only in solo play?

 

They do not need a team +resist aura, we have support classes for that, lets not diminish support even further. They Taunt!

 

The Tanker needs more damage. The only argument that should be here is....... HOW MUCH!

Agreed. With IOs, buffs from squishier ATs, and Incarnate abilities being sturdier is NOT what Tanks need in team combat. Hell at this point it's not what ANYONE period needs. More survivability ISN'T an issue in team settings or solo.

Edited November 20, 2019 by golstat2003

[FUBARczar]

yeah I think a bigger AoE on powers, hitting more targets with a little boost in damage while removing bruising is a good change for Tankers and the game.  And that's where we are at, right?

 

If so, let's roll it out.  

[Puma]

19 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

So the Brute will be pretty much just as good as a Tanker survival in a team but a Tanker is not allowed to do near Brute damage in a team, only in solo play?

 

They do not need a team +resist aura, we have support classes for that, lets not diminish support even further. They Taunt!

 

The Tanker needs more damage. The only argument that should be here is....... HOW MUCH!

Well what you're suggesting is that a tanker gets to do near brute damage all the time, but a brute needs a team to reach near a tanker's survivability.  

At that point I can't think of any reason why someone wouldn't roll a tanker over a brute. 

[summers]

1 hour ago, Puma said:

Well what you're suggesting is that a tanker gets to do near brute damage all the time, but a brute needs a team to reach near a tanker's survivability.  

At that point I can't think of any reason why someone wouldn't roll a tanker over a brute. 

 

I've made the comment earlier, and my future advice is likely going to be that anyone considering between the two should probably just go Tanker. The early game is going to be smoother with huge toughness without IOs, and the later game is going to be AOE heaven. Since, in my opinion, 95% or more of the (team) game is spent fighting groups of enemies, this is far better.

[Infinitum]

How many people commenting on this thread now has actually tested the tanks or brutes on Beta to see this change isn't game breaking for tanks or brutes?

 

Seriously if you haven't rolled any or if all you have rolled is /ss you really shouldn't be commenting on how it will break the game cause it won't.

 

My first worry was nerfing the brute dmg cap would hurt brutes mainly in a farm environment - I tested this to be false its not noticeable. And if it's not noticeable under extreme circumstances like that it won't be on normal teaming for sure.

 

My second concern was the tank aoe and dmg increase would make them the pick of the litter and superior to brutes.

 

I have tested this on 5 types of tank SJ, SS, psi, rad, and Warmace.  I did that because I have experience with other ATs with those sets and wanted to see how the change affected tanks with those sets.

 

Each one was improved but not to the point I feel it went anything past putting the tank in parity with brutes it definately didn't outdamage my blaster - any of them, and on rad and psi I would likely stick with those on brutes.  SS is good but it's still either feast or famine due to rage and were it not for my first ever character being a invul/ss I probably wouldnt play it because of how rage makes it quirky. I much prefer SJ on tanks - IMO that's the most fun tank set now on main servers or Beta - but even on Beta the changes were noticeable but not to the point I would have felt any differently about how it played before or after the changes the changes just bring it in parity with how the game is focused.

 

Warmace I would honestly leave on my Scrappers, maybe it's because I am familiar with it there, but either way it felt better there to me.

 

None of these changes would make me want to roll a tank by default.

 

To me it felt like a big hitter on the team teaching minions who is boss just throwing them all off of him.  Where as a brute feels very much targeted - burning hard targets down and obliterating the masses once rolling - more of a focused intensity.

 

They both accomplish a role, different ways, neither at this point IMO would outstrip any other AT, and you can't use farming as an example of brutes popularity still.

 

I get that this largely based on my opinion and perception, But until you test this, guessing on what you think will happen to anything is unjustified.

 

Give homecoming team time, and credit for giving 2 craps to do this for us in the first place, because honestly all the back and forth and round and round - myself included would make me want to walk away from this.

[summers]

25 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Give homecoming team time, and credit for giving 2 craps to do this for us in the first place, because honestly all the back and forth and round and round - myself included would make me want to walk away from this.

I don't see any problem with back and forth considering this is a feedback thread for people to express their opinions and experiences. So long as people aren't being rude to the HC team, then this thread is serving its purpose. They will decide in their own time what and when they will implement the changes.

Edited November 21, 2019 by summers

[golstat2003]

3 hours ago, Puma said:

Well what you're suggesting is that a tanker gets to do near brute damage all the time, but a brute needs a team to reach near a tanker's survivability.  

At that point I can't think of any reason why someone wouldn't roll a tanker over a brute. 

I play a tanker when I want to hold aggro and I'm expected to. I roll a brute when I just want to turn my "protect the team" mind off and just bash things with my fellow damage dealers. If I'm a tanker I'm a taunt bot, if I'm a brute I'm a smash bot. There, that's a reason.

Edited November 21, 2019 by golstat2003

[golstat2003]

32 minutes ago, summers said:

I don't see any problem with back and forth considering this is a feedback thread for people to express their opinions and experiences. So long as people aren't being rude to the HC team, then this thread is serving its purpose. They will decide in their own time what and when they will implement the changes.

Yes INFORMED feedback. The person you quoted is suggesting folks test it instead of theory crafting. Not a bad suggestion.

[Infinitum]

33 minutes ago, summers said:

I don't see any problem with back and forth considering this is a feedback thread for people to express their opinions and experiences. So long as people aren't being rude to the HC team, then this thread is serving its purpose. They will decide in their own time what and when they will implement the changes.

It is a feedback thread on changes, if you haven't tested the changes, you couldn't possibly have feedback.

[Captain Powerhouse]

27 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

It is a feedback thread on changes, if you haven't tested the changes, you couldn't possibly have feedback.

 

Disagree, your feedback can be a lot better founded and informed if you test, but you can have feedback without testing. That being said, a lot of the feedback that is not based on testing and tries to simplify math tends to be flawed due to omissions of many variables. 

 

"Worst" case scenario I seen so far, the tanker will surpass brute DPS on equal grounds by literally lower single digits in some situations that are rare outside of farms, and not constant in farms. That matches my internal testing, and is intended.

[siolfir]

2 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Disagree, your feedback can be a lot better founded and informed if you test, but you can have feedback without testing. That being said, a lot of the feedback that is not based on testing and tries to simplify math tends to be flawed due to omissions of many variables. 

 

"Worst" case scenario I seen so far, the tanker will surpass brute DPS on equal grounds by literally lower single digits in some situations that are rare outside of farms, and not constant in farms. That matches my internal testing, and is intended.

I didn't have to type my disagreement on feedback without testing because you said it while I was still typing.

 

Any more news on the availability of the next patch? I know that you might not have the information, but you're certainly more likely to know than we are and the thread's just been spiraling while everyone is waiting for things to be either pushed or patched.

[Captain Powerhouse]

It's on the oven, not sure when it should be ready to serve but maybe sometime this week? And things seem to be back moving so we wont wait another month and a half for the next patch, that is already in the works with some additional tweaks.

[Doc_Scorpion]

3 hours ago, summers said:

I don't see any problem with back and forth considering this is a feedback thread for people to express their opinions and experiences.

You must be new to the thread - because there's very little "back and forth", it's almost all endless running in the same circle.  In the same vein, there's very little experience...  it's almost all opinion.  The latter is weak feedback.  The former is all but useless after the third lap.  (And we're up to ten or twelve laps in this version of the thread alone.)

[Seigmoraig]

13 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

You must be new to the thread - because there's very little "back and forth", it's almost all endless running in the same circle. 

Agreed, this thread is a circle jerk marathon at this point haha. I just come and check to see that Cap'n posts for actual information

[Gobbledigook]

8 hours ago, Puma said:

Well what you're suggesting is that a tanker gets to do near brute damage all the time, but a brute needs a team to reach near a tanker's survivability.  

At that point I can't think of any reason why someone wouldn't roll a tanker over a brute. 

I never said that.  Read it again properly. I said "in a team" both times. I think you know that though.

 

The fact is there is NO reason to roll a Tanker as it is. A brute can do the job easily, solo or with a team for harder content and do way more damage at any time.

 

 

 

 

[Gobbledigook]

6 hours ago, summers said:

 

I've made the comment earlier, and my future advice is likely going to be that anyone considering between the two should probably just go Tanker. The early game is going to be smoother with huge toughness without IOs, and the later game is going to be AOE heaven. Since, in my opinion, 95% or more of the (team) game is spent fighting groups of enemies, this is far better.

And you fell for it also? lol

 

Please read more carefully guys!

[golstat2003]

11 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

I never said that.  Read it again properly. I said "in a team" both times. I think you know that though.

 

The fact is there is NO reason to roll a Tanker as it is. A brute can do the job easily, solo or with a team for harder content and do way more damage at any time.

 

 

 

 

pretty much. In this day and age no team *needs* any sort of tanking except in the most extreme of cases like Hamidon. and with the buffs out the waazo at such encounters, it seven possible that you could buff brutes or scrappers to do the job. 

so that defineing characteristic for tank pretty much isn't that special any longer. So buffing their tankiness or ability to hold even more aggro is pointless. Most folks wouldn't notice. EDIT: A lot of the teams I'm on pretty much just run from group to group smashing the mobs. Someone (usually buffed) runs in takes the alpha and everyone else comes in and AOEs the mobs to death. No waiting for a tank to hold aggro, take the alpha herd or any of that old style stuff. Incarnates have pretty much nearly made every time into a steam roller event.

 

In the lower levels it might be needed. But even then with appropriate buffs anyone on the team can take that alpha. Hell an Ice Controller being buffed and going in a laying down ice slick is enough of pre-aoe storm opening. I've run teams where waiting on a tank to take aggro usually slowed us down.

Edited November 21, 2019 by golstat2003

[Apparition]

20 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

pretty much. In this day and age no team *needs* any sort of tanking except in the most extreme of cases like Hamidon. and with the buffs out the waazo at such encounters, it seven possible that you could buff brutes or scrappers to do the job. 

so that defineing characteristic for tank pretty much isn't that special any longer. So buffing their tankiness or ability to hold even more aggro is pointless. Most folks wouldn't notice. EDIT: A lot of the teams I'm on pretty much just run from group to group smashing the mobs. Someone (usually buffed) runs in takes the alpha and everyone else comes in and AOEs the mobs to death. No waiting for a tank to hold aggro, take the alpha herd or any of that old style stuff. Incarnates have pretty much nearly made every time into a steam roller event.

 

In the lower levels it might be needed. But even then with appropriate buffs anyone on the team can take that alpha. Hell an Ice Controller being buffed and going in a laying down ice slick is enough of pre-aoe storm opening. I've run teams where waiting on a tank to take aggro usually slowed us down.

 

Brutes are actually better for tanking Hamidon with because of the Regeneration secondary, which Tankers don't have access to.

[Gobbledigook]

52 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

pretty much. In this day and age no team *needs* any sort of tanking except in the most extreme of cases like Hamidon. and with the buffs out the waazo at such encounters, it seven possible that you could buff brutes or scrappers to do the job. 

so that defineing characteristic for tank pretty much isn't that special any longer. So buffing their tankiness or ability to hold even more aggro is pointless. Most folks wouldn't notice. EDIT: A lot of the teams I'm on pretty much just run from group to group smashing the mobs. Someone (usually buffed) runs in takes the alpha and everyone else comes in and AOEs the mobs to death. No waiting for a tank to hold aggro, take the alpha herd or any of that old style stuff. Incarnates have pretty much nearly made every time into a steam roller event.

 

In the lower levels it might be needed. But even then with appropriate buffs anyone on the team can take that alpha. Hell an Ice Controller being buffed and going in a laying down ice slick is enough of pre-aoe storm opening. I've run teams where waiting on a tank to take aggro usually slowed us down.

Agreed.

[Infinitum]

8 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Disagree, your feedback can be a lot better founded and informed if you test, but you can have feedback without testing. That being said, a lot of the feedback that is not based on testing and tries to simplify math tends to be flawed due to omissions of many variables. 

 

"Worst" case scenario I seen so far, the tanker will surpass brute DPS on equal grounds by literally lower single digits in some situations that are rare outside of farms, and not constant in farms. That matches my internal testing, and is intended.

Then what is the point of these threads at this point when its just rehashing the same crap with a ton of unfounded opinion and nothing to back them up?  at some point it should be locked unless people just like the roundabout chicken fight on the mopeds.

 

there is no new data, nobody is testing this anymore its just a bunch of arguing that could be avoided simply by locking it.

 

i guess i just like to be hands on and theres way too much knee jerking on here in this thread right now with nothing to back it up.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Infinitum

[Replacement]

8 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Disagree, your feedback can be a lot better founded and informed if you test, but you can have feedback without testing. That being said, a lot of the feedback that is not based on testing and tries to simplify math tends to be flawed due to omissions of many variables. 

You may not have noticed, but I broadly agree with your perspective.  Not on this.  

 

It frustrates me that when these patches drop, there are more people clogging up these feedback threads with emotional reactions than there are people logged onto the test environment.  I really don't want to encourage that.

 

There are obvious exceptions, when some fundamental part of the math doesn't line up (the infamous Arcanaville Claws incident), but generally speaking, I like the idea of encouraging testing before speaking.  If nothing else, it forces us to cool off.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Replacement

[Haijinx]

13 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Then what is the point of these threads at this point when its just rehashing the same crap with a ton of unfounded opinion and nothing to back them up?  at some point it should be locked unless people just like the roundabout chicken fight on the mopeds.

 

there is no new data, nobody is testing this anymore its just a bunch of arguing that could be avoided simply by locking it.

 

i guess i just like to be hands on and theres way too much knee jerking on here in this thread right now with nothing to back it up.

I think part of the issue is that there is a fundamental disagreement about what a Brute's role is. 

 

Those from the "broots are DPS" side don't see Brutes as actual tanks, after all Tankers have tank in the name. 

 

And thus Tankers shouldn't do damage like DPS ATs you know, like Brutes.

 

Those who see Brutes as the lighter/higher damage Tank AT don't see the issue.  Because most MMOs have heavy and light tanks. 

 

Those sorts of arguements will continue, game testing or not. 

 

=======

We're actually lucky the Brutes are tanks camp isn't arguing to keep live Tanker damage, and just nerf Brute damage for being too close to Scrappers.