Is Dual Blades Good for Stalker?

[drgantz]

I see very few posts mentioning DB.  I'm guessing that it is weaker than other Stalker Primaries.

I am trying to make a Natural Stalker, so I don't want any unusual powers for a primary.

I like the appearance of DB, because I think that a stealth type should use a small weapon such as daggers.

[Haijinx]

It looks fairly good, but has the downside of needing slow animating placate in one of the best combos.

[ninja surprise]

Pretty sure you'll be fine, and how you enjoy your concept is the most important.

You can try making one on test and boosting it to 50 to see how you like it there.

[Hyperstrike]

DB/WP was my first villain to 50.

Even now, Stabbitha's STILL a blast to play.

[Croax]

Dual Blades and Willpower were released in the same issue. I remember a lot if people running around with DB/WP at that time...

 

But i don't like DB because you need Placate for the empower combo AND if you miss one hit, the combo is wasted.

[NodHero]

21 hours ago, Croax said:

AND if you miss one hit, the combo is wasted.

This is why I gave up on DB and went with the other stacking type power sets.

[Moka]

It owns.

[Rathulfr]

The DB combos on Stalker are clunky/awkward with the Hide/AS/Placate dynamic.  I had one friend tell me to just ignore the DB combos altogether, and play it like any other Stalker.  Unfortunately, since I'd played a DB Scrapper back in retail, the combos are what appealed to me.  If I wanted to ignore the DB combos, I'd play a Katana Stalker, instead.  So I gave up on DB Stalker.  YMMV.

[Machariel]

I have no idea what most of the Dual Blade combos do, which is fine, because I don't have the powers to execute them anyway. 

However, I will second Moka that DB owns.  "Attack Vitals" is less a combo so much as just a Stalker's job description.  Stuff enough recharge in the build and your attack chain is Ablating -> Sweeping -> Ablating -> AS, repeat.  It's a scary fast attack chain of the three highest DPA powers and you can stuff a purple proc and a -res proc into each of the non-AS attacks.  (The procs can't stack with themselves but they stack with each other so but at least they'll both be up as much as they can). 

AoE? well great news every time your build up recharges (which is constantly, because you're a stalker with ultra fast attacks), you get to do the sweep combo which starts with Build Up (enjoy your free gaussian proc).  You even have a good "AoE crit from hide power" in Thousand Cuts, but sweeping strike on cooldown does pretty solid AoE. 

 

Pair it with a low-maintenance secondary, preferably one with some +recharge built in, and go to town.  I picked Ninjitsu because I cleverly disregarded my own device advice.

 

EDIT: fixed typos.

i should point out that my enthusiasm for the set shouldn’t be taken as my disagreement with everyone else’s thoughts: the combo system is kind of meh and awkward with the stalker mechanics. It does suck that placate is required for the combo and if you want to play the set on a stalker to use the combo mechanics, varying your attacks by the situation, you’ll probably have a bad time and be rightfully disappointed.  Having to take all the attacks in the set to get access to all the combos feels pretty bad.  But if you’re willing to build for that sweet sweet global recharge.... 

Edited November 12, 2019 by Machariel

[Shockacon]

I just finished getting a DB/nin up to 50. I liked it well enough considering I had trouble finding a groove with another character after playing a night widow for so long. Not sure I would've gone with something other than Ninjitsu or Willpower just for what Machariel said about secondaries paired with it. The combo system wasn't too bad, though it made me concentrate too much on it) once I found my own pattern with it, even compensating when an attack missed and killed a chain.  I'm not sure if I want to try the incarnate stuff on the toon, though, and I am not sure why. I don't feel lacking in damage per se, but I can see where some might feel that way.  Maybe the incarnate stuff would help there... 

 

I would not dissuade one from playing it as overall I do like it. Plus, you can always use the Vanguard weapon options and pretend you are stalking enemies with lightsabers at least. Whatever path you choose, may the Force be with you.

[StrikerFox]

I gave DB/SR a try on Beta, to see what kind of dps it can dish out. The chain is AS-Ab-SS-Ab-repeat, and also tried AS-Moonbeam-Ab-SS-Ab-repeat. Each run got a little under 2 minutes for around 450 dps.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I feel like the build sacrifices a lot to get enough recharge to run the chain seamlessly. I think DB dps can improve by changing the chain to AS-Ab-SS-NS-Ab-repeat. Nimble Slash isn't ideal, but making the chain slightly longer would require less recharge to run, which allows for more slotted procs.

[Microcosm]

2 hours ago, StrikerFox said:

I feel like the build sacrifices a lot to get enough recharge to run the chain seamlessly. I think DB dps can improve by changing the chain to AS-Ab-SS-NS-Ab-repeat. Nimble Slash isn't ideal, but making the chain slightly longer would require less recharge to run, which allows for more slotted procs.

It's definitely worth proccing. Of all the proc based stalkers I've made, db came out on top. I used Power Slice instead of Nimble though, and I don't remember why...

 

It also does surprisingly some of the best AoE with just the two AoEs it has and the sweep combo. The downside I would say is that you have to wait a long time to get any AoE other than the sweep combo, and that is really not enough AoE to rely on. If you're willing to wait until you get Sweeping Strike at 26 it is a great set.

 

My tip is in AoE situations you should hold off on using AS/Ablating if Buildup is not recharged because it may pop with the Guile proc and give you an instant Sweep combo ready to go. Also, just ignore Empower/Placate; it isn't worth it.

 

[Machariel]

Do you have a procced out build Microcosm? I'm not sure where I'd fit the procs into mine - i have so few attack powers and I feel like I need to keep them slotted with sets to get the global recharge bonuses.  I'll play around with it though. . .

 

Also would be cool to see that build Striker! just to make sure I'm on the same page 😄

Edited November 15, 2019 by Machariel

[Microcosm]

Sure. This is what I used for pylon testing, with a couple extra -kb ios in various places because pylons are jerks.

 

Spoiler

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.5
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Stalker
Primary Power Set: Dual Blades
Secondary Power Set: Electric Armor
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Leviathan Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Power Slice -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), TchofDth-Dam%(19), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(43), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(48)
Level 1: Hide -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Ksm-ToHit+(15), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(25), Rct-ResDam%(33)
Level 2: Ablating Strike -- GldStr-Acc/Dmg(A), Dmg-I(3), TchofDth-Dam%(3), TchofLadG-%Dam(5), GldStr-%Dam(5), AchHee-ResDeb%(11)
Level 4: Charged Armor -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(13), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(23), UnbGrd-Max HP%(37)
Level 6: Assassin's Blades -- SprStlGl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprStlGl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), Hct-Dmg(7), Hct-Dam%(9), TchofDth-Dam%(9), SprStlGl-Rchg/Hide%(11)
Level 8: Conductive Shield -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), GldArm-End/Res(37), GldArm-ResDam(37)
Level 10: Build Up -- GssSynFr--Build%(A), RechRdx-I(17), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(17)
Level 12: Static Shield -- StdPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(40), StdPrt-ResKB(42)
Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(21)
Level 16: Boxing -- KntCmb-Acc/Dmg(A), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx(23), KntCmb-Dmg/Rchg(42), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 18: Vengeful Slice -- SprStlGl-Dmg/Rchg(A), SprStlGl-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), SprStlGl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43)
Level 20: Lightning Reflexes -- Empty(A)
Level 22: Tough -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(42)
Level 24: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(25)
Level 26: Sweeping Strike -- FuroftheG-Acc/Dmg(A), Arm-Dmg(27), Arm-Dam%(27), Obl-%Dam(31), Erd-%Dam(33), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(33)
Level 28: Energize -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(29), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(29), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(31), Pnc-Heal/+End(31)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(34)
Level 32: One Thousand Cuts -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(34), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), SprAssMar-Rchg/Rchg Build Up(45)
Level 35: Power Sink -- EffAdp-EndMod(A), EffAdp-EndMod/EndRdx(36)
Level 38: Water Spout -- Rgn-Dmg(A), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(39), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(39), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(40), Ann-ResDeb%(40)
Level 41: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 44: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), WntGif-ResSlow(45)
Level 47: Power Surge -- Lck-%Hold(A), Lck-Rchg/Hold(48), BslGaz-Rchg/Hold(48), BslGaz-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(50), BslGaz-Acc/Rchg(50), BslGaz-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(50)
Level 49: Hibernate -- Prv-Absorb%(A)
Level 1: Assassination
Level 1: Brawl -- KntCmb-Acc/Dmg(A), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx(46), KntCmb-Dmg/Rchg(46), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(15)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(13)
Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon
------------

 

 

 

Running AS > AB > SS > PS gets around 450 dps. At some point when I did the pylon tests I changed up the chain somehow and started to get between 450 and 531. Problem is I didn't write down the difference, just marked that I changed something, and I can't remember what it was... If I figure it out I'll let you know.

 

Edit: Other incarnates I used were Ageless Core, Degen Core, Assault Core, but none of those are strictly necessary for the build to work.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Microcosm

[Leogunner]

On 11/12/2019 at 7:18 PM, Microcosm said:

It's definitely worth proccing. Of all the proc based stalkers I've made, db came out on top. I used Power Slice instead of Nimble though, and I don't remember why...

 

It also does surprisingly some of the best AoE with just the two AoEs it has and the sweep combo. The downside I would say is that you have to wait a long time to get any AoE other than the sweep combo, and that is really not enough AoE to rely on. If you're willing to wait until you get Sweeping Strike at 26 it is a great set.

 

My tip is in AoE situations you should hold off on using AS/Ablating if Buildup is not recharged because it may pop with the Guile proc and give you an instant Sweep combo ready to go. Also, just ignore Empower/Placate; it isn't worth it.

 

Great advice!

 

The part about ignoring the Empower combo is great and plays out on other DB ATs as well.  I don't believe the Empower combo is very good on Brute...you might still use it but you probably get more damage with some other measure.  Same thing with the Weaken combo, I'm sure Scrappers never use it.  There will just be combos you don't bother with or leave out one or two powers that are required for such combos.  For Stalkers, Sweep and Attack Vitals are good to have and you can ignore the others.

 

Min/maxing attack chains I've got no insight on.  I'm still very clunky with my Stalker DB/Ice and thinking of rerolling him as DB/Inv.  The difficult part for me is recovering from a miss.  I often already have the next attack queued up so once a miss happens, if I don't react, the next move in the chain will go off anyway and now that attack is on cooldown.  I dunno.  With my DB/Fire Brute, I have stuff like the heal and burn to use if a miss happens so I can sort of reset.

[Microcosm]

1 hour ago, Leogunner said:

Min/maxing attack chains I've got no insight on.  I'm still very clunky with my Stalker DB/Ice and thinking of rerolling him as DB/Inv.  The difficult part for me is recovering from a miss.  I often already have the next attack queued up so once a miss happens, if I don't react, the next move in the chain will go off anyway and now that attack is on cooldown.  I dunno.  With my DB/Fire Brute, I have stuff like the heal and burn to use if a miss happens so I can sort of reset.

The way I approach it is if the combo goes off it's a nice bonus, but I don't get caught up in them, because there will always be misses. And generally at high enough recharge levels trying to get the combo instead of just using the next best attack is going to hurt your dps anyway. Sweep just happens to work with the best attacks in the set, so I use that one regularly, and if it misses I've still used the best attacks in the set. Combos are more helpful at lower levels, or fun if you're trying to get an extra effect. DB does such good damage without them it's best not to sweat it.

[StrikerFox]

On 11/12/2019 at 4:18 PM, Microcosm said:

I used Power Slice instead of Nimble though, and I don't remember why...

Comparing PS and NS, PS is a better overall power, providing higher dps. I chose NS because of it's cast time. 

 

NS is faster by about 0.4s (NS 1.188s; PS 1.584s). So in three cycles of the chain, in the same timeframe, the NS chain would be able to cram in an extra attack (Ablating). Six cycles of the NS attack chain, would be able to fit 2 attacks more than the PS chain (Ablating and AS).

 

I think the extra attack over time, would make up for the damage difference between PS and NS. Though PS may have a better chance to build AF.