How to fix Sentinels

[oldskool]

@nihilii

I wouldn't be shocked if the reality is somewhere between B) and C).  I'm not sure Sentinels are fine as is since CP isn't happy with the way the inherent interacts with the design function of damage output.  However, the design for design's sake is a valid point and without real metrics we can't know for sure.  

The interactions of the inherent seem, per the impressions given from CP, that damage is off.  The core of the rework is aimed at the inherent.  So it could be that the inherent needs a change to smooth out both gameplay and throughput.  Then, perhaps on top of that there needs to be core mechanic (i.e., baseline damage) damage increase.  

I'm not convinced the AT needs some dramatic rework.  Nor was I excited to some of the original ideas of CP being that the Sentinel lean more into the name of the AT with perception boosts.  When it was said before that the inherent may as well crap out costume tickets I felt that would be more useful than a perception boost.  I think CP is tired of the abundance of resistance debuff that exists and would rather prune all of it if they could.  Because the Sentinel as is, if you use the concept of spotting weakness, already gives out minor resistance and defense debuffs all the time.  So as long as one hit lands a target is taking a -5% debuff from the start which helps everyone attack that minor weak point.  

Seems to me though that alternative means of addressing damage beyond -resistance are where this design is going to go.  We'd lose a -5% damage increase (due to reduced resistance) and a burst of -20% (plus the Offensive Opportunity damage).  

If we just got a damage mod increase to 1.0 and scrapped the minor defense that wouldn't too noticeable.  If we lost that -20% that would be and especially on sets like Psychic Blast in the later game factions.  My current play on Psychic Blast revolves around negative resistance and mixed damage type procs to make it smoother against robots.  Changes to the debuffs without addressing core enemy faction design would really really suck.  The idea CP wants to "look at" damage procs also makes me leery.  

Any way, point is if we lose the negative resistance we have, then just bumping the damage multiplier to Scrapper/Blaster levels probably won't close the gaps without doing SOMETHING related to offense in the inherent.  
 

Edited December 13, 2019 by oldskool

[Galaxy Brain]

Just throwing darts at the wall here:

 

Problem: Complexity & RNG

Opportunity currently is hard to understand for many players as it has 2 different states activated by 2 different powers. You can skip one of these, but then many feel as though you cannot given you lose out on "half" the inherit. You also have to build meter in order to activate your inherit via the T1 or T2 power, but then that has problems where you actually have to hit said power to activate. There are times when the power straight up misses, or when the target is suddenly not available / is killed as you fire that cause lots of problems when trying to plan out your opportunities that just cause frustration.

 

The "core" of the inherit is great still. Sentinel Attacks naturally having bonus -Res/Def on hit is nice, and the ability to single out 1 target for bonus -Res / Other effects is also great. Seeing that target pop under somebody is just fun, and feels great when you get the bonus stats. Its just how you get it feels off.

 

 

Suggestions:

Going the simpler route, here is how I would at least try and streamline the current model:

1. When your opportunity meter is full, your next (ST?) attack becomes auto-hit and will trigger opportunity as long as it activates. This will eliminate the issue of missing opportunity either through RNG accuracy, or the target being blocked / killed by a 3rd party and robbing you of the buff. 
   1. I say any (ST) attack to make it easier to manage, but making it either the T1 or T2 attack could also work.
   2. This also allows for the "Accuracy" theme of a sentinel to come into play as you can get a guaranteed attack every so often.
2. Combine the Defensive and Offensive opportunity modes into one opportunity buff. 
   1. Feedback on these modes is that they do not seem super game changing on their own. Combining them into one "super mode" along with an easier way to set it up would be nice!
   2. If too strong, either the numbers could be rolled back a bit while still being combined or the duration shortened a bit. I'd rather the latter so the loop could be building up to your "Opportune Moment" and taking advantage every so often.
3. While opportunity is active, ST attacks can place the "Marked Target" debuff on any target for the duration, but you can only have 1 marked target at a time.
   1. The Marked Target idea is really cool... but often wasted. Simply allowing you to mark 1 enemy at a time while in Opportunity Mode would be much more intuitive and let you and team mates benefit from the enemies you focus on. 
   2. Being able to toss out the -20% (25% with base opportunity stacked?) more freely will also boost the damage output, on top of the endurance discount from the combined opportunities.

 

I think the current model works as a "core", but streamlining how you use it would go a long, long way to improvement. Being able to reliably set up the opportunity buff (and debuff) both for yourself and allies to take advantage of will bring damage up a good deal over time and make for a more cohesive gameplay loop imo.

 

[nihilii]

100% onboard with the above idea. In fact, weirdly enough, I had that same "marked target should switch during opportunity" thought just yesterday playing my sentinel.

 

I don't think it's necessary for attacks to become autohit, because you can't miss Opportunity itself. If the attack that was supposed to trigger Opportunity misses, you keep your full bar until you land a T1/T2.

Edited December 24, 2019 by nihilii

[Zepp]

@Galaxy BrainIf you make it where any ST attack can trigger Opportunity (and allow you to change from target to target through using ST attacks on other enemies during the duration of Opportunity), then it does not need to be auto-hit. However, a mechanic wherein the Opportunity Meter grants a logarithmic boost to accuracy would be quite helpful. Accuracy would also help increase damage output. This would make Sentinels more consistent DPS compared to the burst damage of Blasters.

I think combining Offensive and Defensive Opportunity is the way to go, as it is simple and effective.

[Gobbledigook]

When the Opportunity meter is full you can click offensive and all your attacks will critical for 20 seconds or you can choose defensive and you will get a large regeneration buff for 20 seconds. Or just combine the 2.

[drbuzzard]

I managed to really prove to myself the damage issue with sentinels. Now how did I do this? I make a proc monster defender to see what could be done. With 3 or 4 damage procs in all the slow recharging attacks, the damage doesn't really seem much behind a sentinel build (traps/rad, so don't assume I was damage capping). When I can basically catch a DPS class with a support class just using procs, there's definitely an issue.

I was certainly behind in AOE damage since as I always harp on, the 90 second recharging t9 is the only currently offensive strength of the sentinel, but in single target work I didn't really feel much off. I can see why so many go proc happy on their sentinels. Of course I also did a bit of testing, and oldskool was dead on correct about spiritual alpha not being something you do with procs. Damn, just base spiritual collapsed my proc rate.

 

Though while the proc damage build is interesting, the fact that so many powers are basically constrained out of having decent set bonuses is pretty annoying. I really am not motivated to chase proc optimization on my sents.

[Sovera]

Adding to the idea above, a marked target loses the base 5% chance of missing we have baked in (why do we still have this DnD artifact? Either we are accurate enough to hit or not, and as I joked on a TF yesterday if I had 95% chance to fail missing winning the lotto I would like to do it on CoH). It may not be glamorous, it might not be -res, but no missing attacks would be a bump in the damage both in team or alone.

[Sovera]

5 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

I managed to really prove to myself the damage issue with sentinels. Now how did I do this? I make a proc monster defender to see what could be done. With 3 or 4 damage procs in all the slow recharging attacks, the damage doesn't really seem much behind a sentinel build (traps/rad, so don't assume I was damage capping). When I can basically catch a DPS class with a support class just using procs, there's definitely an issue.

I was certainly behind in AOE damage since as I always harp on, the 90 second recharging t9 is the only currently offensive strength of the sentinel, but in single target work I didn't really feel much off. I can see why so many go proc happy on their sentinels. Of course I also did a bit of testing, and oldskool was dead on correct about spiritual alpha not being something you do with procs. Damn, just base spiritual collapsed my proc rate.

 

Though while the proc damage build is interesting, the fact that so many powers are basically constrained out of having decent set bonuses is pretty annoying. I really am not motivated to chase proc optimization on my sents.

I had a triple procced pure range Rad/ sentinel which I used to think did amazing damage until I tested and had a 4 minute pylon kill and no tweaking improved it (6 minutes without using procs). 4 minutes is sort of decent since my my pure ranged tanky Blaster did it in 3 minutes, but it's slooooow. Perhaps if it had cool short animations instead of lengthy ones it would at least be a blender.

[Menelruin]

Has there been any recent word on what the dev team is thinking of doing for a new inherent? 

[golstat2003]

On 12/31/2019 at 11:21 AM, Menelruin said:

Has there been any recent word on what the dev team is thinking of doing for a new inherent? 

None as far as I have heard. They are a little busy with Pets, Tankers, right now.