About Knockback/Sudden Acceleration

[roleki]

9 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

 

I think my hang up depends on whether or not the Accolade switch or toggle power is in addition to, or a replacement for, the KB2KD IOs.  If it's in addition to, then I have no hang up: I'll earn the Accolade and then never use it, just like the Crey CBX-9 Pistol.  But if it's a replacement for the KB2KD IOs, then I'm hung up, for the reasons stated above.

 

This is why these suggestions always have to be carefully considered, discussed, qualified, and explained.  It's far too easy to overlook some aspect or assumption, until we've thoroughly hashed it out, as we're doing now.  Please understand that I've been trying to offer constructive criticism and drive out these kinds of concerns, instead of just dismissing the suggestion out of hand.  I think the suggestion is a good one, and I appreciate your trying to think outside of the box on this.

 

Oh no, I did not mean to suggest removing SA from the game, though I can see where the thread title and my OP could lead you to that conclusion.  

 

I had only intended to suggest modifying the set bonuses so that dipping into the SA set for two would 'balance out' having to frankenslot everywhere you used it. 

 

But then I got to thinking, it sucks that some characters have to spend this time and energy juggling enhanced values, set bonuses, and effect mitigation where most others just "slot this, slot that, boom, that's it, go" and, wouldn't it be nice if there was just some way a character could just 'switch off' KB when they got into teams?

 

So in my mind, the devs would leave KB alone, and maybe tweak the set bonuses for SA but otherwise leave it as-is.  Then, for those players who think it would be worth the effort, there could be an Accolade they could earn that would award a toggle that globally applied the KB:KD value.  That way they could have KB when they want, and no KB if they don't, and this approach would still allow everyone else to deal with KB however they have been up to now.

 

I thought for a minute of suggesting a global KB:KD 'dampening aura' be added to the Tactics power, and then the more players on a team have it, the more KB mitigation is applied - but that seemed gross, having to rely on other people to clean up your mess.  The accolade power seems cleaner, in some way.

 

 

[Seigmoraig]

16 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

Right, another creative suggestion that I dislike at first glance, because it complicates my rotation.

But..but...but what about MEEEEE

99% of people hate KB powers and it annoys them to play with people who abuse them.

 

The solution is making a KD to KB enhancement. Every power that is currently Knockback should be changed to Knockdown and Sudden Acceleration should give powers Knockback, not the other way around

Edited October 31, 2019 by Seigmoraig

[Lost Ninja]

2 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

And how would you balance that around powers like Bonfire/Ice slick, which arguably should not have ANY Stun whatsoever from a balance perespective? Just exclude them? Okay great. 😄

TBH I think if you're slotting heavily for knock down, there should be some benefit to it beyond the knock down. Knock Back has the benefit of knocking the mob away from you so it has it's own benefit. Knock Down doesn't really have anything beyond the basic knockdown effect, once the mob is down it doesn't do to slot it further. Yet set IOs (any of the knockdown sets) have benefits beyond one slot of knock down, it makes sense to give them some purpose other than just knock down.

 

Bonfire is a whole other kettle of fish. Turning knock back into knock down in this power takes it from an easily skippable power into an near must have. I think (and I might be wrong here) that knock down is already in effect a low magnitude knock back. In the case of powers that do knock down already if you increase the magnitude enough to cause them to stun they'd just knock back instead. Either that or just have the chance to stun added to the power so that powers that can never stun won't, powers that can will.

[MunkiLord]

Knockdown doesn't send enemies flying back which is what a good chunk of people want. I oppose adding any additional benefits to knockdown since it would just encourage more people to whine about knockback and kick/exclude people that use it. I am extremely against adding stun to KD, it is more than good enough already.

[roleki]

1 hour ago, Lost Ninja said:

Bonfire is a whole other kettle of fish. Turning knock back into knock down in this power takes it from an easily skippable power into an near must have. I think (and I might be wrong here) that knock down is already in effect a low magnitude knock back. In the case of powers that do knock down already if you increase the magnitude enough to cause them to stun they'd just knock back instead. Either that or just have the chance to stun added to the power so that powers that can never stun won't, powers that can will.

Not really sure what they can do about Bonfire, other than disable slotting KB enhancements,  but that is going to penalize players who don't take advantage of the SA set.   

 

Or maybe set a flag to make enemies intangible/untouchable if they are knocked down (instead of KB) by Bonfire?   That seems kludgy and probably a nightmare to code(?) but it would certainly put Bonfire on the uh, backburner again for most builds.

 

To be honest (and I really hate even saying it) but maybe fixing the unintentionally OP Bonfire  would be a bit like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic?  We have characters who can farm AFK.  My controllers have nukes now.  I've got scrappers who I don't even notice when they are buffed by AM or Fortitude. The other night I was on a team of 5 that took down GM Eochai in less than a minute and one of those teammates was on a bio break.  In the grand scheme of things, "Oh no, people are USING Bonfire" seems kind of in line with the rest of the game post-Incarnate System.

[Rathulfr]

5 hours ago, Lost Ninja said:

It wouldn't change it all from what you have now though really. Ignore the toggle and you have the current model, use the toggle if you prefer knockdown over knockback. You'd still end up slotting some reversal IOs but wouldn't need them in every power if you prefer not to do so.

 

Which is the current state of our options, without any additional Accolades, switches, or toggles.  Want KD instead of KB?  Slot the Overwhelming Force or Sudden Acceleration IO.  I've currently got these IOs slotted in two powers: Explosive Blast and Nova.  That's all I want/need.

 

[Rathulfr]

2 hours ago, Seigmoraig said:

But..but...but what about MEEEEE

99% of people hate KB powers and it annoys them to play with people who abuse them.

 

The solution is making a KD to KB enhancement. Every power that is currently Knockback should be changed to Knockdown and Sudden Acceleration should give powers Knockback, not the other way around

 

You assume that everyone -- or at least "99% of people"  -- shares your opinion on the topic.  I can assure that this is not the case, as indicated by the replies whenever this topic comes up periodically.  Making KD the default option is not a solution: it's fundamentally altering the design of several power sets, which would affect numerous players (not just me).  So it's not just about me, but apparently, it's about you, too.  You would rather have everyone else conform to your re-design of these powers, rather than accepting their original design.  Who's being selfish, then?

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Rathulfr

[Rathulfr]

2 hours ago, roleki said:

Oh no, I did not mean to suggest removing SA from the game, though I can see where the thread title and my OP could lead you to that conclusion.  

 

I had only intended to suggest modifying the set bonuses so that dipping into the SA set for two would 'balance out' having to frankenslot everywhere you used it. 

 

But then I got to thinking, it sucks that some characters have to spend this time and energy juggling enhanced values, set bonuses, and effect mitigation where most others just "slot this, slot that, boom, that's it, go" and, wouldn't it be nice if there was just some way a character could just 'switch off' KB when they got into teams?

 

So in my mind, the devs would leave KB alone, and maybe tweak the set bonuses for SA but otherwise leave it as-is.  Then, for those players who think it would be worth the effort, there could be an Accolade they could earn that would award a toggle that globally applied the KB:KD value.  That way they could have KB when they want, and no KB if they don't, and this approach would still allow everyone else to deal with KB however they have been up to now.

 

I thought for a minute of suggesting a global KB:KD 'dampening aura' be added to the Tactics power, and then the more players on a team have it, the more KB mitigation is applied - but that seemed gross, having to rely on other people to clean up your mess.  The accolade power seems cleaner, in some way.

 

 

 

I'm cool with this.  +1 from me, then.

 

[Bossk_Hogg]

What if we had a universal damage set, Sudden Deceleration? Basically Sudden Acceleration, but with the knockback component subbed out for more damage, accuracy, endurance, range, etc? The set bonus on SD is actually fairly good, just the majority of the enhancement value it provides is useless with the proc slotted.

[Seigmoraig]

3 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

You assume that everyone -- or at least "99% of people"  -- shares your opinion on the topic.  I can assure that this is not the case, as indicated by the replies whenever this topic comes up periodically.  Making KD the default option is not a solution: it's fundamentally altering the design of several power sets, which would affect numerous players (not just me).  So it's not just about me, but apparently, it's about you, too.  You would rather have everyone else conform to your re-design of these powers, rather than accepting their original design.  Who's being selfish, then?

Sorry I shouldn't have tagged you in that it was uncalled for, I'm just feeling dickish today i guess

Edited October 31, 2019 by Seigmoraig

[Dragon Crush]

7 hours ago, Lost Ninja said:

High knockback already has the mitigation of the mob being further away. High knockdown doesn't, so high knockdown should get additinal chance to stun as it's mitigation. Was my thought.

Given KD just just KB at less than mag 1, how would even add something to "high mag KD" in the first place? That's even setting aside if KD needs more anyway for the moment.

[Dragon Crush]

3 hours ago, Seigmoraig said:

99% of people hate KB powers and it annoys them to play with people who abuse them.

 

The solution is making a KD to KB enhancement. Every power that is currently Knockback should be changed to Knockdown and Sudden Acceleration should give powers Knockback, not the other way around

 

I am strongly against this idea.

And off-topic, but anyone know how to quote multiple posts at once?

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, roleki said:

Not really sure what they can do about Bonfire, other than disable slotting KB enhancements,  but that is going to penalize players who don't take advantage of the SA set.   

 

Or maybe set a flag to make enemies intangible/untouchable if they are knocked down (instead of KB) by Bonfire?   That seems kludgy and probably a nightmare to code(?) but it would certainly put Bonfire on the uh, backburner again for most builds.

 

To be honest (and I really hate even saying it) but maybe fixing the unintentionally OP Bonfire  would be a bit like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic?  We have characters who can farm AFK.  My controllers have nukes now.  I've got scrappers who I don't even notice when they are buffed by AM or Fortitude. The other night I was on a team of 5 that took down GM Eochai in less than a minute and one of those teammates was on a bio break.  In the grand scheme of things, "Oh no, people are USING Bonfire" seems kind of in line with the rest of the game post-Incarnate System.

I still say the KBtoKD IO should reduce the effect of the KB in the power you slot it in to near nothing then add a low chance unenhancable KD. 

[0th Power]

8 hours ago, Lost Ninja said:

I wasn't so much indicating which state was on/off but that one state was it off and one state was it on. Would it really make a difference to flip the switch in the other direction?

Not a huge difference, but I think those who were happy with the way a power works shouldn’t have to be the ones to toggle on a power. 

[Rathulfr]

2 hours ago, Seigmoraig said:

Sorry I shouldn't have tagged you in that it was uncalled for, I'm just feeling dickish today i guess

No worries, mate.  Happens to all of us.

[roleki]

1 hour ago, Leogunner said:

I still say the KBtoKD IO should reduce the effect of the KB in the power you slot it in to near nothing then add a low chance unenhancable KD. 

Maybe that's how SA should have been designed - instead of having 5 pieces that amp KB and one that negates all that to bring it back down to KD, they should have had each piece UNenhance KB by percentages in such a way that a combo of 6 gave you a clamped KD number.  But I could see how that would be abused, too.

[roleki]

1 hour ago, 0th Power said:

Not a huge difference, but I think those who were happy with the way a power works shouldn’t have to be the ones to toggle on a power. 

I agree with this; since the KB-averse are the ones that want to alter things, they should be the ones doing the work to make it so.  Again, is why I suggested an accolade toggle, so the rest of the game can go on dealing with KB as they are right now and those who choose to seek out the accolade can do so, then press their button and bask in the floppy glory.  

 

And not to derail things further, but I think it would be cool to have another, similar toggle that AMPLIFIES KB, but only works in PvE and only on mobs that con -10 or lower.  Because I do miss visiting AP with the sole aim of blasting -49 Hellions into the zone barriers from the other side of the map.

 

ETA: or maybe just sell a temp power at P2W that is just a punch that knocks low-level mobs around like crazy, and it can be called something like What A Jerk or something.

 

ETA2:  I've got it.  Make it an enhancement that can only be slotted into Brawl and only works in AP.  Grants <crazy number> KB enhancement, <crazy number> mag stun,  and a <crazy number> damage DEBUFF (so the mob doesn't die right away and you can actually follow their trajectory in the targeting reticule). After 30s, it applies 2000dmg or something to make sure whatever you just clobbered isn't left wandering around the map.

 

Would HC consider patronage powers?  I would pay green money to see that enhancement in-game.

Edited October 31, 2019 by roleki

[0th Power]

2 minutes ago, roleki said:

And not to derail things further, but I think it would be cool to have another, similar toggle that AMPLIFIES KB, but only works in PvE and only on mobs that con -10 or lower.  Because I do miss visiting AP with the sole aim of blasting -49 Hellions into the zone barriers from the other side of the map.

This x 1,000,000

[Rathulfr]

3 minutes ago, roleki said:

Because I do miss visiting AP with the sole aim of blasting -49 Hellions into the zone barriers from the other side of the map.

FORE!!!

[Lost Ninja]

18 hours ago, Dragon Crush said:

Given KD just just KB at less than mag 1, how would even add something to "high mag KD" in the first place? That's even setting aside if KD needs more anyway for the moment.

My original thought wasn't really the point of my post. It was just an aside.

 

As I understand it the way knock (in any direction) works now is that under a certain amount you have knock down, over that amount you have knock back which is why some powers that are knock down knock back when used against targets sufficently low enough to you or if they are fully slotted with knockdown. The knockback to Knockdown in SA (I'm unfamiliar with the other one) I think just removes 1k knock from which ever power it's slotted in making knock back automatically knock down. So adding stun to that wouldn't make any sense. However if you said that no knock back/down was 0, knock down was any negative value and knock back was any positive value (-knock = knock down, +knock = knock back). Knockback IO sets would then apply an increase to that value, not sure how to describe it mathematically, but if you have a negative value you remove more so the IO makes knockdown stronger, if already positive it increases that positivist. The proc IO then just flips the sign positive to negative (or the reverse).

 

The inherent I suggested would do the same thing as the proc and flip the sign. With the inherent unused nothing changes for the end users, extreme knock back (+knock) would still knock things back extremely (Hellion Ball in AP). Knock down (-knock) similarly would work the same. Using the inherent toggle would flip the two round.

 

So if the above were true (as is not the case currently), adding something like a major stun on low duration to -knock at low enough magnitude (as in mag 0 knock is no knock back, -1k mag knock is a "high" mag knock down) which would indicate that not only has the mob been punted into the ground but hard enough to stun them.

 

Of course there will be edge cases that the above doesn't address, I don't have intimate knowledge of the entire game and every power in it. I can think of a couple of things that any change to overall knockback to knockdown wouldn't address. There are a couple of powers that do knockup... I don't know if that is a knock down with a n animation that makes it a appear back to front, or a low mag knock back that directs the mob up from the ground... possibly test it with a Wisp as they have an inherent irremovable fly (IIRC), but really I don't care enough... 😕

 

My OP was really I would like to see a global toggle for +knock to -knock, but I don't want it locked behind an accolade. Unless the accolade is account bound or so easy to achieve (that you might as well make it inherent).

[MetaVileTerror]

I think it bears noting in this thread that the current Devs /have/ been working on Vectored Knock code.  That is to say, Knock Powers which allow for directions other than Up, Down, and Back.  I suspect that the vectoring code could also be extended to things like Repel mechanics too, thus gaining a "Pull" mechanic at last.

Much of the feelings expressed on the great Back-vs-Down debate may find themselves severely redirected once that code is working and goes live.

[Chrome]

i disagree having t waste a slot is exactly why Sudden acceleration is good... it makes you think about how you are building and why.  changing it to a toggle would make something i thought was cool into something boring... the full 6 set bonus is not horrible and is worth getting...however i do think it is odd that if you want to take the full 6 piece set that you lose out on damage because half of the pieces are ENHANCING knockback only to have the 6th piece negate half of what the enhancements do...  I propose that we change the knockback enhancements in Sudden Acceleration to Range that way taking the full set will not feel half useless and giving another unique option for players...you could still use it as is, it wont break any builds using the one piece to change kd to kb and builds that currently use the 6 piece set will still maintain the effectiveness  and even be better off!   it can even offer a reason to get the 5 piece set for people that like KB and enhance the range of the abilities instead of increasing the KB.   

[Bossk_Hogg]

35 minutes ago, Chrome said:

i disagree having t waste a slot is exactly why Sudden acceleration is good... it makes you think about how you are building and why.  changing it to a toggle would make something i thought was cool into something boring... the full 6 set bonus is not horrible and is worth getting...however i do think it is odd that if you want to take the full 6 piece set that you lose out on damage because half of the pieces are ENHANCING knockback only to have the 6th piece negate half of what the enhancements do...  I propose that we change the knockback enhancements in Sudden Acceleration to Range that way taking the full set will not feel half useless and giving another unique option for players...you could still use it as is, it wont break any builds using the one piece to change kd to kb and builds that currently use the 6 piece set will still maintain the effectiveness  and even be better off!   it can even offer a reason to get the 5 piece set for people that like KB and enhance the range of the abilities instead of increasing the KB.   

If they change them to range you still end up with 60% damage or so. The damage should at least hit the ED cap. Swapping the KB/Recharge and KB/Accuracy to Damage/Recharge and Damage/Accuracy will satisfy that, while leaving the three triples open to new types of enhancement (range, endurance reduction, etc).

Edited November 1, 2019 by Bossk_Hogg

[Chrome]

7 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

If they change them to range you still end up with 60% damage or so. The damage should at least hit the ED cap. Swapping the KB/recharge and KB Accuracy to Damage/Recharge and Damage/Accuracy will satisfy that, while leaving the three triples open to new types of enhancement (range, endurance reduction, etc).

i initially thought that would be a fix as well and then i realized the set is not meant to increase damage it is not a damage set at all. changing the set to range keeps it within the flavor of the set and doesn't make it just another damage set, we dont need that.  the broken part about the set is that 3 or 4 of the pieces enhance the knockback and then the final piece strictly nerfs what those pieces are doing...changing them to range keeps it with in the flavor of the set and will still impact abilities that are knockbacks and don't do any damage at all

Edited November 1, 2019 by Chrome

[Bossk_Hogg]

26 minutes ago, Chrome said:

i initially thought that would be a fix as well and then i realized the set is not meant to increase damage it is not a damage set at all. changing the set to range keeps it within the flavor of the set and doesn't make it just another damage set, we dont need that.  the broken part about the set is that 3 or 4 of the pieces enhance the knockback and then the final piece strictly nerfs what those pieces are doing...changing them to range keeps it with in the flavor of the set and will still impact abilities that are knockbacks and don't do any damage at all

The people who currently use the proc want a damage set that mitigates KB. Why not make the set more for them, than for some nebulous group that wants a half-ass damage set? Likely very few use the rest of the set anyways.