About Knockback/Sudden Acceleration

[Galaxy Brain]

 

52 minutes ago, Lost Ninja said:

 

Sufficiently high magnitude knock powers should also translate into a lower mag stun... IMO but that is another suggestion... 😄

This would be nice, I feel that high KB should def have bonus effects that make slotting for +Knock great.

[Rathulfr]

2 hours ago, Lost Ninja said:

Add inherent power at level 2 (same as Rest/Fitness/etc).

When on it makes all knock powers knock back, when off it makes all knock powers knock down.

Everyone is then on the same playing field, IOs that currently flip one to the other would still work but in reverse to what the inherent is set to allowing people to have one knock back while running as knock down... etc

 

Sufficiently high magnitude knock powers should also translate into a lower mag stun... IMO but that is another suggestion... 😄

 

A good suggestion, but still problematic.  I like my single-target attacks to have knockback, but I slot my AoEs with the knockdown IO.  Adding a toggle for this unnecessarily complicates my rotation, as I'd have to constantly toggle it off and on as a prerequisite to certain attacks.

 

[Leogunner]

I usually stay out of topics like this. But the costs it has on balance might be too high. 

 

The elephant in the room is Bonfire. Some other questionable shifts are Shockwave (both of them), Gale, Repulsing Torrent. I'm sure there are others. IMO, the issue isn't the damage potential (I assume that is the purpose players slot the IO in the first place), it's the mitigation and that tends to revolve around the chance of KB (in those powers, it's 100%) and the rech (most of those powers recharge quickly). This tends to eek out powers already balanced to perform with KD (ice slick /patch, oil slick, dragon's tail, 1k cuts, etc). 

 

In some cases, it's not hard to just ignore (like Shockwave vs 1k cuts) as being different enough. But it's harder to do in cases like with Bonfire vs ice slick. Then you're talking about buffing ice control (I don't think anyone would be opposed) but it would continue this chain reaction of buffing more stuff because of other buffs. 

 

That being said, you could alter the IO to debuff the power you slot it in to have a longer recharge time or maybe reduce the chance of the KD from occurring to a flat 10%.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Leogunner

[0th Power]

3 hours ago, Lost Ninja said:

Add inherent power at level 2 (same as Rest/Fitness/etc).

When on it makes all knock powers knock back, when off it makes all knock powers knock down.

Everyone is then on the same playing field, IOs that currently flip one to the other would still work but in reverse to what the inherent is set to allowing people to have one knock back while running as knock down... etc

 

Sufficiently high magnitude knock powers should also translate into a lower mag stun... IMO but that is another suggestion... 😄

I'd be all for this if the off condition was KB, and the on condition was KD.

[MunkiLord]

19 minutes ago, 0th Power said:

I'd be all for this if the off condition was KB, and the on condition was KD.

It's like it to able to add KB to literally every power I have. That way anytime I buff a teammate they go flying. Those AoE buffs would get real fun, real fast. 

[Broken_Prey]

4 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

It's like it to able to add KB to literally every power I have. That way anytime I buff a teammate they go flying. Those AoE buffs would get real fun, real fast. 

Need to make sure the kb is like  mag 13 so even the melee alt go flying 😂 

[MunkiLord]

I'm totally on board with that. I'd make defenders just to do this for shits and giggles. I'd also crack up if I was fighting an AV or large mob with a Scrapper and the kin gave me Speed Boost and I went flying.

[Dragon Crush]

Buff KB would need to bypass protection so tanks aren't left standing. Would actually be useful on MMs with ranged pets, toss a buff on them to get them back out of melee without bunch of clicking/binds.

 

Although more serious, they could implement something like that for Pocket D only.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Dragon Crush

[MunkiLord]

So it seems like we're all in agreement! Time to increase KB mag across the board.

[Rathulfr]

19 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

So it seems like we're all in agreement! Time to increase KB mag across the board.

+1

 

[roleki]

3 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

 

A good suggestion, but still problematic.  I like my single-target attacks to have knockback, but I slot my AoEs with the knockdown IO.  Adding a toggle for this unnecessarily complicates my rotation, as I'd have to constantly toggle it off and on as a prerequisite to certain attacks.

 

That's why I thought an Accolade with toggle would be the way to go; people who wanted the KB:KD effect wholesale could put in the effort to earn it, which leaves 'normal' people alone to navigate KB however they choose, whether that be ignoring it, slotting it like crazy, or eliminating it by ones and twos with the Sudden Acceleration F piece.  

 

I admit the Bonfire question is sticky.  It's so good with the KB:KD enhancement, it completely changes it from a 'strategic clickable' to a power that's the centerpiece of my attack chain on characters who can take it. 

 

That said... eh, I don't want to go off on a tangent.  Suffice to say, I think "OP Bonfire" would be a weird place to start caring about power creep.

[srmalloy]

On 10/29/2019 at 8:15 AM, Crysta Clear said:

Do you know what is already a KB to KD toggle? Hover.

 

If you are above your target, you knock them back... away from you. Which is down.

 

Don't ever tell me what I have to slot.

Try that in an office hallway. It is not a sinecure.

 

[Rathulfr]

7 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

Try that in an office hallway. It is not a sinecure.

Or a purple cave hallway. 

[Rathulfr]

1 hour ago, roleki said:

That's why I thought an Accolade with toggle would be the way to go; people who wanted the KB:KD effect wholesale could put in the effort to earn it, which leaves 'normal' people alone to navigate KB however they choose, whether that be ignoring it, slotting it like crazy, or eliminating it by ones and twos with the Sudden Acceleration F piece.  

 

I admit the Bonfire question is sticky.  It's so good with the KB:KD enhancement, it completely changes it from a 'strategic clickable' to a power that's the centerpiece of my attack chain on characters who can take it. 

 

That said... eh, I don't want to go off on a tangent.  Suffice to say, I think "OP Bonfire" would be a weird place to start caring about power creep.

 

My problem with the Accolade is two-fold:

1. I'm a bit of an achiever, so if you put an Accolade out there, I'll try to get it.  But I'm effectively penalized for doing so by the effect it will have on my game play (the conversion of KB to KD).  I'm unaware of any other Accolade in the game that someone might want to actively avoid.  "More HP?  No thanks, Atlas Medallion.  KD instead of KB?  No thanks, Roleki Medallion."
2. How does one "turn off" an Accolade reward?  Heck, I've never even considered trying to delete any powers associated with an Accolade, but I suppose it's theoretically possible.  And if I did so, would I ever be able to get it back again later, if I wanted it?  Again, I'm not sure that's something that's even possible: I think Accolades are one-time binary switches.  Do they reset if deleted?

The suggestion, although creative, basically subverts the fundamental conceit of an Accolade in the first place: a one-time achievement with a singular reward (or singular reward set) that's universally desirable.  And since KB2KD conversion isn't universally desirable, it's not a good fit for an Accolade.

 

[Dragon Crush]

Just now, Rathulfr said:

How does one "turn off" an Accolade reward?  Heck, I've never even considered trying to delete any powers associated with an Accolade, but I suppose it's theoretically possible.  And if I did so, would I ever be able to get it back again later, if I wanted it?  Again, I'm not sure that's something that's even possible: I think Accolades are one-time binary switches.  Do they reset if deleted?

 

Some of the accolade powers are clicks, not auto. Vanguard medal, eye of the magus, geas of the kind ones and elusive mind are click buffs that last a minute on long timers. Someone else suggested, and I expanded on the idea of the accolade granting a toggle power so you can switch between KB and KD.

[Rathulfr]

1 minute ago, Dragon Crush said:

Some of the accolade powers are clicks, not auto. Vanguard medal, eye of the magus, geas of the kind ones and elusive mind are click buffs that last a minute on long timers. Someone else suggested, and I expanded on the idea of the accolade granting a toggle power so you can switch between KB and KD.

 

Right, another creative suggestion that I dislike at first glance, because it complicates my rotation.  I'd have to routinely switch it off and on depending on which attacks I happen to be preparing to use to determine which get KB vs KD. 

 

While more flexible than an automatic universal switch (such as a Null the Gull option or Accolade stat buff), a toggle is still a universal switch after all: I presume it would apply to all or none of my attacks.  How do I include/exempt specific powers from the effect of this toggle? 

 

This is the heart of the problem for me with most of these suggestions that come up every few weeks: they're not better than the current solution, which is to simply slot a KB2KD IO wherever needed/desired.  So far, that seems to be the only solution that offers the best flexibility for everyone.

 

[Dragon Crush]

Well in the case of getting a KB->KD toggle you'd at least have the option of simply not using it and continuing as is regardless of obsessive badge collection (something I suffered from on live as well).

I don't think it's possible to come up with a perfect solution simply because everyone will have differing desires, some of which can change minute to minute, at best we can look for a wide reaching "good enough" patch that doesn't break things for others.

 

Edit to add -

And IOs are also imperfect since as others have said, sometimes you want KB in some situations, and in others you want KD, and carrying a ton of unslotters and changing IOs multiple times a session is infeasible.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Dragon Crush
added comment about IOs

[roleki]

6 minutes ago, Dragon Crush said:

 

Some of the accolade powers are clicks, not auto. Vanguard medal, eye of the magus, geas of the kind ones and elusive mind are click buffs that last a minute on long timers. Someone else suggested, and I expanded on the idea of the accolade granting a toggle power so you can switch between KB and KD.

This guy has the right of it; my original proposal was for an Accolade that granted a toggle, and I later suggested giving that toggle an endurance cost of .33 end/s.

 

I felt an Accolade more appropriate than an inherent or a temp power, because in my OPINION, that leaves KB alone for those who do not care one way or another, doesn't make it too easy to just fundamentally change the way a powerset works, and for those people to whom the distinction matters, they can just look and see that that En/En has the accolade so it must be someone else knocking everything asunder.

 

I felt it should be a toggle because KB is a big help when soloing, or at least, I find it is, and it would be a shame to have to make a choice between nerfing yourself for solo play in trying to be a more effective teammate.  

 

I felt it should cost some non-trivial endurance (but not too punitive as to be unworkable) because you ARE changing the way the game works for YOU, and that should cost you something.  In my opinion.

 

At no point did I suggest an auto-power that permanently removes KB from the equation for anyone who has the misfortune of earning it!  That is the opposite of my suggestion!  I would never want to purposely or inadvertently change the way any individual pursues their free time. 

 

All I am looking for is a way for individuals to earn a workable solution to an... effect(?) that varies in nuisance from one character to the next.

[roleki]

20 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

 

Right, another creative suggestion that I dislike at first glance, because it complicates my rotation.  I'd have to routinely switch it off and on depending on which attacks I happen to be preparing to use to determine which get KB vs KD. 

 

While more flexible than an automatic universal switch (such as a Null the Gull option or Accolade stat buff), a toggle is still a universal switch after all: I presume it would apply to all or none of my attacks.  How do I include/exempt specific powers from the effect of this toggle? 

 

This is the heart of the problem for me with most of these suggestions that come up every few weeks: they're not better than the current solution, which is to simply slot a KB2KD IO wherever needed/desired.  So far, that seems to be the only solution that offers the best flexibility for everyone.

 

Sigh.  You know how many times I have used the Kind Ones power, despite having it on numerous characters?

 

Never.  No, I take that back, I used it once, thought, well.that was underwhelming, and moved on.  Same goes for the  XB-9 or whatever.  Just because something appears in your tray doesn't mean you are contractually obligated to use it. 

 

Personally, I find temp powers and clicky accolades to be unnecessary interlopers to my usual order of operations, in that, by the time I actually earn them, I'm level 50 with a fully fleshed out character, I don't need these things.  

 

That said, if I accidentally earned a -KB:KD accolade power, I would probably try it out, and if I didn't appreciate the results, remove it from my tray and it can gather dust with the rest of them. 

 

Really not seeing what the hangup is here.

[Rathulfr]

5 hours ago, roleki said:

Sigh.  You know how many times I have used the Kind Ones power, despite having it on numerous characters?

 

Never.  No, I take that back, I used it once, thought, well.that was underwhelming, and moved on.  Same goes for the  XB-9 or whatever.  Just because something appears in your tray doesn't mean you are contractually obligated to use it. 

 

Personally, I find temp powers and clicky accolades to be unnecessary interlopers to my usual order of operations, in that, by the time I actually earn them, I'm level 50 with a fully fleshed out character, I don't need these things.  

 

That said, if I accidentally earned a -KB:KD accolade power, I would probably try it out, and if I didn't appreciate the results, remove it from my tray and it can gather dust with the rest of them. 

 

Really not seeing what the hangup is here.

 

I think my hang up depends on whether or not the Accolade switch or toggle power is in addition to, or a replacement for, the KB2KD IOs.  If it's in addition to, then I have no hang up: I'll earn the Accolade and then never use it, just like the Crey CBX-9 Pistol.  But if it's a replacement for the KB2KD IOs, then I'm hung up, for the reasons stated above.

 

This is why these suggestions always have to be carefully considered, discussed, qualified, and explained.  It's far too easy to overlook some aspect or assumption, until we've thoroughly hashed it out, as we're doing now.  Please understand that I've been trying to offer constructive criticism and drive out these kinds of concerns, instead of just dismissing the suggestion out of hand.  I think the suggestion is a good one, and I appreciate your trying to think outside of the box on this.

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Rathulfr

[Dragon Crush]

Can't speak for roleki, but I hadn't thought of replacing the IOs, rather adding another option.

Plus I'd like to see KB distance badges (if that's something the game could track).

And just thought, maybe could add a second 1 minute click with recharge similar to geas that massively increases KB distance (+1000% mag, +10mag) just to toss mobs across the zone. Combine it with the joke buff KB and it'd be a new travel option.

[Lost Ninja]

16 hours ago, 0th Power said:

I'd be all for this if the off condition was KB, and the on condition was KD.

I wasn't so much indicating which state was on/off but that one state was it off and one state was it on. Would it really make a difference to flip the switch in the other direction?

[Lost Ninja]

18 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

This would be nice, I feel that high KB should def have bonus effects that make slotting for +Knock great.

High knockback already has the mitigation of the mob being further away. High knockdown doesn't, so high knockdown should get additinal chance to stun as it's mitigation. Was my thought.

[Lost Ninja]

18 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

 

A good suggestion, but still problematic.  I like my single-target attacks to have knockback, but I slot my AoEs with the knockdown IO.  Adding a toggle for this unnecessarily complicates my rotation, as I'd have to constantly toggle it off and on as a prerequisite to certain attacks.

 

It wouldn't change it all from what you have now though really. Ignore the toggle and you have the current model, use the toggle if you prefer knockdown over knockback. You'd still end up slotting some reversal IOs but wouldn't need them in every power if you prefer not to do so.

[golstat2003]

21 minutes ago, Lost Ninja said:

High knockback already has the mitigation of the mob being further away. High knockdown doesn't, so high knockdown should get additinal chance to stun as it's mitigation. Was my thought.

And how would you balance that around powers like Bonfire/Ice slick, which arguably should not have ANY Stun whatsoever from a balance perespective? Just exclude them? Okay great. 😄