Defender Inherent - Both against theme and often useless.

[Leogunner]

9 hours ago, Replacement said:

This, of sorts.  I have 2 issues with Vigilance:

1. Bad incentive structure. And I should mention my bias here: I do not like vengeance sacrifice tactics. To me, that's the logical conclusion of what would happen if the low hp benefit was actually good.
2. The payoff mostly applies to healers, at least in theory. Ostensibly, the reason for the endurance discount is to help save the low-hp ally. But that context doesn't make sense for most defenders. If you're instead using it for, say, tar patch, then you're back to the poor incentive structure from point #1.

Honestly, I can forgive #1. I want to be clear that it's "a thing that is weird" and this isn't causing me great grief.

But it would be super if their passive was a little more accurate to their role. And if you clean up point #2, you may as well fix #1 while you're there.

 

Edit: I'd be really curious to know what it would take to kill permadom. I would love to see it become less mandatory. But that is certainly worth it's own thread.

I personally don't mind vengeance type tactics but it's also not common despite how effective it can be. The way you view such tactics is the way I view players who advocate never picking up self-rezzes because they build to just never die. It's like being afraid of a little debt, it makes no sense to me. 

 

As for the bonus applying to mostly healers, I don't see the connection since if you're a healer that is healing, you've likely slotted your heal abilities to heal efficiently and you're not using your blasts. No, the bonus effect is for your blasts which might be less efficiently slotted because you upped the damage and secondary effect or only put minimal slotting in them. That being said, I don't literally means vigilance is only for your blasts, I moreso mean it's for any power you don't have optimally slotted and that's not going to be your powers you've slotted for optimal performance (shields, heals, toggle debuffs or if you're an Offender, your offensive powers) , it's going to whatever you're not specialized in. 

 

That being said, if you min /maxed your entire character, you won't see much of a benefit ever from the Inherent. 

[Jeneki]

On 11/11/2019 at 10:19 AM, ShinMagmus said:

The inherent rewards bad play and works better if you let your teammates get abused and die.

(caps removed)

 

Here is the logic flaw in this post.  You cannot heal stupid, nor is it the responsibility of a defender to do so.  But woot, a bonus when the team, not the defender, makes things "interesting".

 

Example: When I run off to get murdered because Rise of the Phoenix is recharged and I would be a bad player to waste that power, it's not because the defender is abusing me.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Jeneki

[SeraphimKensai]

A defender Inherent I could get behind would be:

 

Safeguard. 90 second uptime, 200 second recharge, similar to Domination. As you're buffing/debuffing/healing a bar fills at 90% you can activate Safeguard, and increase the magnitude of your buffs/debuffs/heals by 50%.

[Megajoule]

The real issue, IMO, is that way back when Inherents were added, the Devs flat out acknowledged, in as many words, that Defenders were already exactly in the sweet spot.  But everyone else was getting Inherents, so they had to give them something...

So what we got, basically, was a gold star sticker - a bit of decoration that, in most cases and for many Defender powersets, has little or no noticeable effect.  Purely for the sake of "everyone gets a trophy Inherent."

Edited November 15, 2019 by Megajoule

[CapnFreedom]

What if Defenders got an inherent power similar to a Blaster, being able to cast 1 or 2 signature abilities from their support set even when mezzed? I don't know if copying the code for simply letting them cast tier 1 and tier 2 powers... have not looked at all the power sets. Random thoughts. Thanks for reading a resurrected thread.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, CapnFreedom said:

What if Defenders got an inherent power similar to a Blaster, being able to cast 1 or 2 signature abilities from their support set even when mezzed? I don't know if copying the code for simply letting them cast tier 1 and tier 2 powers... have not looked at all the power sets. Random thoughts. Thanks for reading a resurrected thread.

Why would you give different ATs the same inherent? Even the Kheldians have different inherents depending on whether the character is a Peacebringer or Warshade.

[CapnFreedom]

Just trying to find something to make Defenders more desirable in the current meta. Yes their buffs are nicest. But if Blasters' shtick is a 'best offense' mentality and they can use it almost all of the time... Defenders could/should be able to defend/buff/support their team members the best/most often/even when in a pickle because that's what they do... despite being in a pinch. Being low on END just doesn't happen enough to make their current Inherent that desirable. Just my 2 inf.

Edited July 2 by CapnFreedom

[Rudra]

17 minutes ago, CapnFreedom said:

Just trying to find something to make Defenders more desirable in the current meta. Yes their buffs are nicest. But if Blasters' shtick is a 'best offense' mentality and they can use it almost all of the time... Defenders could/should be able to defend/buff/support their team members the best/most often/even when in a pickle because that's what they do... despite being in a pinch. Being low on END just doesn't happen enough to make their current Inherent that desirable. Just my 2 inf.

As opposed to say Peacebringers or Warshades who only gain a benefit from their inherent when on a team? And only if the team has sufficient variety of team members? Or Scrappers that rely on their ATOs to make their inherent reliable? Vigilance gives its best benefits while solo, sure. Vigilance gives Defenders an increase in their damage output when on a small team, that is to say, a team of 3 including themselves. That damage increase improves if they only have 1 team mate, and improves again if they are solo. Their END cost reduction improves as their team mates suffer greater injury, letting them turn the tide of battle. They have heals? They can use those heals more freely because of the reduced END cost. They have toggle debuffs? They can layer more debuffs with the reduced END cost. They have toggle buffs? They can layer more buffs with the reduced END cost. And they can layer in more of their attacks while applying the increased heals, buffs, and debuffs, potentially saving their team. I don't view Vigilance as a 'keep your team almost dead for max results' ability or as a 'only applies to heals' ability. I view it as a 'holy crap! The team is in danger, time to pull out any remaining stops on my power usage and go nuts' ability.

 

Sure, if you have a strong team, it never comes into play. Neither does the Stalker's Assassinate inherent ability really come into play on those teams either. Or the Corruptor's Scourge ability since Scourge often kicks in just in time to not do anything because of how fast the team mows down the opposition. Half the time neither does the Tanker's Gauntlet since mobs just melt upon contact with the team these days. Or the Sentinel's Opportunity.

 

So though I've been sitting this discussion out, since I'm here now, I have to say I don't see anything wrong with the Defender's Vigilance ability. It all boils down to how you choose to see/interpret the ability, and so apply it.

[srmalloy]

44 minutes ago, CapnFreedom said:

Being low on END just doesn't happen enough to make their current Inherent that desirable.

About the only use I've gotten out of it is for getting a laugh out of the rest of the team when I pop up with "Can you all suck a bit more? I'm not getting any benefit from my inherent here..." in the middle of a mission we're steamrolling.

[CapnFreedom]

I'm not against revisiting the other ATs inherent powers. Many are lackluster or reliant on the ATO sets. I did not create a new thread, but was only concerning myself with making a suggestion for Defenders (at this time) and saw that someone ages ago started the topic.

 

If Corruptors are generally more desirable than Defenders (it seems at least so in the circles/server I play with), then it sounds like Defenders need a little sumthin'. Especially in a game where the Devs are saying that the are encouraging team play and role diversity, support-based sets have been in need for a while. Maybe it is the circles I run with. Damage is king, it seems.

Edited July 2 by CapnFreedom

[kelika2]

a weaker version of power boost on a short cooldown

give it some +dmg and +tohit

either give it a recharge that

 

stronger everything to set them apart from trollers, mms and corrs

[srmalloy]

17 hours ago, CapnFreedom said:

Especially in a game where the Devs are saying that the are encouraging team play and role diversity

I would much rather see the different ATs contributing uniquely to the team, rather than a "We need a Defender for the badge" choice.

[arcane]

The only reason Defenders aren’t S-Tier for desirability is because Corruptors exist. Performance-wise they’re doing great at contributing to teams - they’re in a much better spot than, say, Controllers or Brutes or Masterminds.

[AmbiguousOmen]

Why make it complicated?

 

New Vigilance: Every teammate provides a 3% end discount.

 

It does largely the same thing as current Vigilance, but in a way that is noticeable and that helps Defenders out in lower levels when they don't have the resources for end management.

[Purrfekshawn]

On 11/11/2019 at 8:26 PM, Outrider_01 said:

8% resist? Dark and Radiation can already make the bad guy whiff at you aimlessly with -tohit so why try to reduce the incoming damage if they can't hit you. Time itself is a mishmash of random Defender sets with its effects, so regen or resist depending on the consideration.

 

Time Manipulation is the powerset with one of the best heals around (Temporal Mending, Chrono Shift AoE, Temporal Selection - single target regen with increased heal input from AoE's) and Heal over Time. Regen looks meh here, while 8% Resistance is exact what my Time-related Defender would love most!

 

On 11/11/2019 at 7:19 PM, Shin Magmus said:

<> TA IS TRASH <>

Trick Arrow (If people seriously aren't going to fix this set)

All 3 buffs at the same time

 

TA once were the trash, but right now it has UNRESISTIBLE debuffs, including Perception Debuff (l still wonder why devs added that, let it be -ToHit (it has -ToHit that affects Archvillains too), but Perception???) and also +RESISTANCE from EMP Arrow. So +Regen all the way to this set, as it has no heals.

 

Alternatively l may suggest making Defender Inherent granting 3 MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE Toggles, similar to Dual Pistol ammo swap, or Bio Armor adaptations. That one would cost no endurance and provide Aura, that gives +REGEN, +RES or +DEF respectively. It won't depend on primary powerset though, so the player could decide if the Defender's player wants to add a trait the Defender lacks (for lnstance Regeneration to Force Field) or even furthur improve the powerset's capacity, for lnstance Resistance to Sonic Resonance.

 

The aura also would work similar to some Tanker auras for enemies, but Defender's aura for allies, granting increased Endurance Discount (for lnstance +1% endurance discount for each affected ally, possibly with first ally affected granting the biggest bonus).

[Rudra]

56 minutes ago, Purrfekshawn said:

including Perception Debuff (l still wonder why devs added that, let it be -ToHit (it has -ToHit that affects Archvillains too), but Perception???)

Flash Arrow from Trick Arrow is set to not notify enemies when used per City of Data. Its -450 feet Perception is much greater than any mobs perception radius. (Snipers have the best perception radius at 149 feet, but reduce that by 450 feet, and you can walk right up to snipers and not have them do anything unless you hit them with another attack. Flash Arrow from Trick Arrow also imposes -9.375% ToHit on mobs, plus another -9.375% ToHit that is unresistable, so they are also losing hit chance from it.

 

Edit:

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=defender_buff.trick_arrow.flash_arrow&at=defender

(And even if it is only -90% with the -450 feet being for players though City of Data does not say the -450 feet does not apply to mobs, that still means snipers can't see you beyond 15 feet, GMs can't see you beyond 10 feet, and other mobs can't see you beyond 5 feet.)

 

Edited July 3 by Rudra

[Purrfekshawn]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Flash Arrow from Trick Arrow is set to not notify enemies when used per City of Data. It's -450 feet Perception is much greater than any mobs perception radius. (Snipers have the best perception radius at 149 feet, but reduce that by 450 feet, and you can walk right up to snipers and not have them do anything unless you hit them with another attack. Flash Arrow from Trick Arrow also imposes -9.375% ToHit on mobs, plus another -9.375% ToHit that is unresistable, so they are also losing hit chance from it.

 

But also AE version of the powerset imposes unresistible -PERCEPTION on players, so that flash actually can blind any player, even with Focused Accuracy and stuff like that. Imagine the superhero has X-Ray vision, echolocation or something. And gets dazzled with some sort if pitiful flash?! This is kinda silly. Why Device's smoke bomb and other blind power has no IRRESISTIBLE -Perception, while TA's flash has?

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, Purrfekshawn said:

 

But also AE version of the powerset imposes unresistible -PERCEPTION on players, so that flash actually can blind any player, even with Focused Accuracy and stuff like that. Imagine the superhero has X-Ray vision, echolocation or something. And gets dazzled with some sort if pitiful flash?! This is kinda silly. Why Device's smoke bomb and other blind power has no IRRESISTIBLE -Perception, while TA's flash has?

That isn't something I can answer. I'm just saying that Flash Arrow does include your requested -ToHit and what good a -Perception effect can be.

 

(Edit: Also, per City of Data, the -Perception from Flash Arrow is not resistable by players or mobs. So it blinds everyone it is used against.) (Edit yet again: However, if you have powers that boost your Perception, then Flash Arrow is less effective against you since you would have more Perception than the default 500 feet players get, offsetting Flash Arrow's -450 feet. Like the Stalker's Shadow Dweller power from Dark Armor. It adds 216.25 feet Perception, so even with Flash Arrow blinding the character, that Stalker still has 266.25 feet of Perception.)

 

Edit again: Maybe the devs will give players an echolocation power or a radar power or something similar that can ignore being blinded, but we don't have those powers in this game except as background fluff we type up for our characters.

 

Edited July 3 by Rudra

[Purrfekshawn]

On 11/11/2019 at 7:19 PM, Shin Magmus said:

<> STRONG SETS WHICH BOTH HEAL AND BUFF RESISTANCE <>

Nature Affinity,  Pain Domination,  Thermal Radiation,  Kinetics

+5% Defense (All)

 

 

Also since the post seems to has been made before Electrical Affinity. But that one has both Heals (including +ABSORB) and Resistance, so that one would have using the author's logic +5 to DEF too.

[Shin Magmus]

8 hours ago, Purrfekshawn said:

 

Also since the post seems to has been made before Electrical Affinity. But that one has both Heals (including +ABSORB) and Resistance, so that one would have using the author's logic +5 to DEF too.

Yeah that makes sense.  This is an ooolllllld post by this point, but most people in charge like Defenders having a useless inherent.

[shortguy on indom]

• IMHO - THE EXTRA ENDURANCE IS SOMEWHAT USELESS, AND IT RESULTS IN BEING UNUSED.
• IF INHERENT RECHARGE RATE WAS PROPORTIONALLY INCREASED ALONG WITH ENDURANCE, NOW THE DEFENDER COULD USE THE END INCREASE EFFECTIVELY.
• THE INHERENT MAY ACTUALLY BECOME FUNCTIONAL AND FUN, IF POWERS COULD BE CLICKED 'FIRE AT WILL.'

[Shin Magmus]

Also you guys understand that patches exist and that several of these sets, notably TA and FF, are very different now than they were in 2019, right?

[MsSmart]

Frankly, I would rather have a non conditional inherent, why should a defender after having 4 members in a team, essentially have no inherent?

 

I suggest give Defenders a practical inherent, that is available always regardless of team size.

 

Sue

[Neogumbercules]

The viability, usefulness, or necessity of Vigilance as it's currently designed isn't even the real issue in my opinion.

 

Vigilance is poorly designed, simplistic, boring, and only exists to throw defenders a bone when solo'ing or playing on small teams. It doesn't help define defenders, or have any impact on how a defender plays. It doesn't factor into your power picks or cause any kind of engagement on behalf of the player at all. It's not visible in any way, and it's literally turned off when you're on a team. On many defender primaries it's pretty much useless, because the defender can boost itself.

 

I just think from a game design standpoint, it sucks because it's...boring, like I said.

 

Even completely passive inherents, like Scrappers critical hits, or Corruptor scourge are visible and satisfying when they pop. And you can actually play around them to an extent.

 

Vigilance is just invisible and literally non-functioning most of the time.

Edited July 4 by Neogumbercules

[Rudra]

47 minutes ago, Neogumbercules said:

It doesn't help define defenders

It defines Defenders as the AT that steps up when things go south for the team, cutting loose in ways the other ATs can't, to keep the team alive.

 

47 minutes ago, Neogumbercules said:

or have any impact on how a defender plays.

It's impact surfaces when the Defender is needed most, when the team is in a lurch and the Defender can cut loose with their reduced END until the team recovers or wipes.

 

47 minutes ago, Neogumbercules said:

It doesn't factor into your power picks

None of the AT inherents factor into their power picks, nor should they. That is the point. The inherents are not supposed to force you into a specific play style or power choices. That would take away from one of the best things the game has, the ability to make your character how you want.

 

47 minutes ago, Neogumbercules said:

It's not visible in any way

It is quite visible, when it is needed. It is also just as visible as other AT inherents that passively affect the character/team.

 

47 minutes ago, Neogumbercules said:

and it's literally turned off when you're on a team.

No, it is not. You lose the damage portion of the inherent when you are teamed with 3 or more other characters, but that END reduction when the team hits a rough spot is still very much there. It's an inherent that functions like some powers, there when you need it, but not when you don't.

 

Edit: Look, I get that there are players that don't like the Defender inherent. However, don't lie about it or ignore what it does to pitch your case.

 

Edited July 4 by Rudra