The Current PUG Meta (aka ramblings of an old man)

[Apparition]

44 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

 I can see why "need a healer" could be a warning sign?  But other AT's?  I've called for 'em now and again because the team has a weakness, a hole that needs plugging.  Or, sometimes when playing story missions I'm familiar with, I have a plan as to how I want to approach the coming mission.

 

Because outside of things like Master of TFs/SFs, the Lady Grey TF, or Hamidon raids, you don't need one of anything.  Seeing someone forming something state that they need a tank or healer most likely indicates that either the team lead is inexperienced (as EmmySky pointed out), or is just plain bad.

[Solarverse]

14 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

Because outside of things like Master of TFs/SFs, the Lady Grey TF, or Hamidon raids, you don't need one of anything.  Seeing someone forming something state that they need a tank or healer most likely indicates that either the team lead is inexperienced (as EmmySky pointed out), or is just plain bad.

Meh, I don't see it that way. Sometimes players, especially like myself prefer a well rounded team. Has nothing to do with what we need. I guess each will look in to it what they will, but I simply don't agree.

[nzer]

2 hours ago, siolfir said:

Close - I fixed that for you. I wasn't saying that controllers aren't valuable now, which the part I crossed out implies.

Fair correction, and FWIW I agree

[Twisted Toon]

10 hours ago, nzer said:

I'm not entirely sure why people are talking about content requiring optimal team comps when no one has asked for that. The original comment was about players being encouraged, but not required, to have diverse team comps that include support characters rather than being able to steamroll everything with, say, eight blasters, which you can absolutely currently do.

You can absolutely do the same with 8 Defenders as well. And 8 controllers. Never discount the power of Buff/De-Buff sets. Especially when you can stack the benefits x8.

[Seroster01]

I'd like to chime in on the subject on 2 fronts: 

 

1.) I think most of what you're describing wasn't really being replaced by Villain ATs, it was the end result of the IO system. This is primarily bwcause every character can be made at least moderately tanky. To a lesser degree, the potential to have huge amounts of +rech & +recovery that are both passive & permanent also reduced the impact of many Support sets' buffs.

 

2.) I'm not sure what you're really trying to advocate for here? The ATs that keep getting brought up, Controllers & Defenders, are among the most useful ATs in the game. Support sets are massively powerful in CoH, moreso than any other MMO I've played.  This is doubly true for sets that boost effective damage (+dam, -res, +rech, etc). I'd much rather have a Controller than a Dom in the vast majority of situations. Defenders are a bit closer to Corruptors for me, but they still have major advantages in that their support #s are a fair bit higher & they get their powers significantly earlier (that last  one doesn't matter much at 50, but I spend a lot of time doing exemplared TFs & I think that's pretty common, so I'd think that matters a significant amount overall) Interestingly, I can remember reading a bit somewhere on the net about how Defs were actually stronger than Corrs in most situations, because the difference in buff/debuff #s was larger than the difference in their basic damage #s. Scourge is a big boost vs targets with large health pools (AVs & such), but most regular mobs die too fast for it to make a significant difference. Something might've changed since then though, as I believe that was well before shutdown.

 

Aaanyway, the only class that I'd say has a legitimate issue with redundancy in the modern game is Tanks, as increasing survivability is one of the easiest things to accomplish via IOs & high survivability is really the only thing a tank has to differentiate themselves. And even with that being the case, I still see & play with many tankers, because being able to take a big pack's alpha to the face without immediately eating dirt is still a very useful skill. 

 

With all of that in mind, what exactly are you advocating for? Every class is useful, and any given AT may be more or less desirable than any other depending on your groups' current composition & enemy/content type. To me, this is one of the greatest strengths of CoH. What would be accomplished by creating content that REQUIRED specific group compositions? How would you even accomplish this? If nothing else, Support sets are so strong in this game that any given group can clear any content in the game if some character(s) in the group have the right support powersets. A group of just about any 8 defenders is actually ridiculously strong because of buff/debuff stacking, even without significant IO investment (See: an all Emp Defender team, where proper buff usage results in the whole team having capped defenses, huge regen/recovery buffs, significant damage boosts, & maybe more that I can't remember). You'd have to actually gut the classes you seem to be advocating for in order to accomplish what you're asking. And then what would be the positive result of such a change? The only results I really see from such a request are negatives. There would be less choice in which characters are desirable for groups, amd it would require significantly more time/effort to be exerted in putting a group together since the leader would have to continually find & recruit the proper ATs in order for a group to have a composition that's even CAPABLE of accomplish the group's  desired goals.

 

It sounds to me like your basic goal is to increase the game's difficulty, but very little of the games difficulty is wrapped up in what ATs are brought to a group & the ATs with the MOST impact on making group content easier are the ones you seem to think are currently at a disadvantage. There's already plenty of ways to increase the difficulty of your play sessions if you chose to do so. In any event, I'm pretty sure you could functionally accomplish what you're asking by simply removing IOs... but even then I just fundamentally don't understand what you're hoping to accomplish. If you want things to be more difficult, change things like what you're doing & how you play the game. Removing the IO system would certainly make the game more difficult, but honestly it's one of the largest reasons I even play CoH. That seems to be a common sentiment, & as such removing it from a server is likely going to result in a cripplingly small playerbase. More to what's been discussed here, having certain ATs be nigh-mandatory is just going to result in more group-related stresses & has no benefit I can think of that couldn't be accomplished with the current systems. 

[Megajoule]

3 hours ago, Twisted Toon said:

You can absolutely do the same with 8 Defenders as well. And 8 controllers. Never discount the power of Buff/De-Buff sets. Especially when you can stack the benefits x8.

Two of the most effective teams I've been on, ever, were an all-defender team and an all-spider (Widow and Soldier) team.  In both cases, the main factor was (IMO) the stacked buffs and debuffs.  Enemies just melted.

 

(This was back on Live, by the way.)

Edited November 21, 2019 by Megajoule

[Coyotedancer]

4 hours ago, Megajoule said:

Two of the most effective teams I've been on, ever, were an all-defender team and an all-spider (Widow and Soldier) team.  In both cases, the main factor was (IMO) the stacked buffs and debuffs.  Enemies just melted.

 

(This was back on Live, by the way.)

 

*Nods* Yep. "Green Machine" (all-Empath) teams are terrifying, too.

 

'Most hilariously-silly-yet-scary team I ever saw in action? Back on Liberty, post-IOs but long. long before Incarnates or side-switching became Things, I watched FlyingCodeMonkey (That's Mr. Coyote), on Projector, join seven other Storm Controllers to take on... And complete!... Statesman's task force. Which, at the time, was pretty much considered the toughest content in the game.

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Coyotedancer

[AWOL]

 I've been quoted a lot... "I'd like to see balance introduced that didn't make certain ATs or powersets mandatory but did encourage people to have a good mix" ... with a few different interpretations.

 

I still think that once characters are tricked out with Incarnates they are OPed and their is too little challenge left in the game.  I think there is little need for CC now that there is so much AOE and trash is melted in seconds.  I think that with everyone being defence capped, damage capped, loaded with recharge, endurance flooding out of their ears, etc. then buffs are no longer as valuable.  I think this naturally errodes the value of certain ATs.  I am not saying nobody wants them anymore (as it doesn't matter on a high end team as the content will be melted anyway).  I am not saying that I want certain ATs to be required.  I am saying that we need to either be levelled down as incarnates, or have the content leveled.

 

I am not suggesting my opinion is anything more than my opinion.  I get that some of you like us being gods.

 

 

[AWOL]

Just now, AWOL said:

 I've been quoted a lot... "I'd like to see balance introduced that didn't make certain ATs or powersets mandatory but did encourage people to have a good mix" ... with a few different interpretations.

 

I still think that once characters are tricked out with Incarnates they are OPed and their is too little challenge left in the game.  I think there is little need for CC now that there is so much AOE and trash is melted in seconds.  I think that with everyone being defence capped, damage capped, loaded with recharge, endurance flooding out of their ears, etc. then buffs are no longer as valuable.  I think this naturally errodes the value of certain ATs.  I am not saying nobody wants them anymore (as it doesn't matter on a high end team as the content will be melted anyway).  I am not saying that I want certain ATs to be required.  I am saying that we need to either be levelled down as incarnates, or have the content leveled up.

 

I am not suggesting my opinion is anything more than my opinion.  I get that some of you like us being gods.

 

 

 

[Abraxus]

1 hour ago, AWOL said:

 I've been quoted a lot... "I'd like to see balance introduced that didn't make certain ATs or powersets mandatory but did encourage people to have a good mix" ... with a few different interpretations.

 

I still think that once characters are tricked out with Incarnates they are OPed and their is too little challenge left in the game.  I think there is little need for CC now that there is so much AOE and trash is melted in seconds.  I think that with everyone being defence capped, damage capped, loaded with recharge, endurance flooding out of their ears, etc. then buffs are no longer as valuable.  I think this naturally errodes the value of certain ATs.  I am not saying nobody wants them anymore (as it doesn't matter on a high end team as the content will be melted anyway).  I am not saying that I want certain ATs to be required.  I am saying that we need to either be levelled down as incarnates, or have the content leveled.

 

I am not suggesting my opinion is anything more than my opinion.  I get that some of you like us being gods.

 

 

I feel that the Incarnate system was intended for much more development, that could have addressed a lot of the concerns you mentioned.  Unfortunately, most of that never left the development stage, due to the original shut-down.  Now, in the resurrected game, we are dealing with the Incarnates as they were, and the same issues (for some) surrounding them.  If any of the ideas for the development in this area are known, perhaps it will be pursued to the extent possible once the Homecoming team is free to do whatever they wish with the game, with the closure of the NCSoft talks.  Also, to have sufficient manpower to deal with the huge amount of things across the board that folks would like to see improved, augmented, fixed, expanded, or addressed. 

 

I hope someday, all of these things get their moment in the development process to contribute to this game being even better than it is.  But, we have to keep a perspective for the moment, that it is still currently operating is something of a gray area legally, with an all volunteer (and small) team of folks who all have day jobs to support themselves, and do this for nothing more than the love of the game.

[Doc_Scorpion]

10 hours ago, Seroster01 said:

With all of that in mind, what exactly are you advocating for? Every class is useful, and any given AT may be more or less desirable than any other depending on your groups' current composition & enemy/content type.

Now that I've gotten support types up into the 40's...  I'm not so sure I agree.  The majority of the time other folks on the team are IOed out or (worse yet) loaded with Incarnate powers, and I end up feeling like a ninth wheel.  My rad/rad defender almost never gets his debuffs off (unless there's a particularly nasty AV), leaving him mostly acting as a low rent blaster.  And not a particularly useful low rent blaster at that as the mobs are all but melted before my first blast is recharged.

It's demoralizing and actively makes me not want to play those toons.
 

32 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

I feel that the Incarnate system was intended for much more development, that could have addressed a lot of the concerns you mentioned.  Unfortunately, most of that never left the development stage, due to the original shut-down.  Now, in the resurrected game, we are dealing with the Incarnates as they were, and the same issues (for some) surrounding them. 

We're facing two problems here on HC...  The first is the lack of Incarnate content that was in the pipeline and stillborn when the game was shut down.  The second is that HC (as compared to live) has a MUCH higher proportion of IOed out and Incarnate characters.  You can't really directly compare the high level experience on Live to the same on HC.

[Abraxus]

18 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

We're facing two problems here on HC...  The first is the lack of Incarnate content that was in the pipeline and stillborn when the game was shut down.  The second is that HC (as compared to live) has a MUCH higher proportion of IOed out and Incarnate characters.  You can't really directly compare the high level experience on Live to the same on HC.

Perhaps, but the system is at the same stage, with much less development resources to throw at it in the reincarnated version of the game, in order to balance it out.  Especially, when considering how many other aspects of the game need/want attention as well, with the limited resources available.

[Seroster01]

1 hour ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Now that I've gotten support types up into the 40's...  I'm not so sure I agree.  The majority of the time other folks on the team are IOed out or (worse yet) loaded with Incarnate powers, and I end up feeling like a ninth wheel.  My rad/rad defender almost never gets his debuffs off (unless there's a particularly nasty AV), leaving him mostly acting as a low rent blaster.  And not a particularly useful low rent blaster at that as the mobs are all but melted before my first blast is recharged.

It's demoralizing and actively makes me not want to play those toons.

I'd rather have any toon with AM & Enervating Field on my team than any blaster or Dom. AM is a great buff & EF will significantly increase the kill speed of any group, because with how all the combat numbers work -res is one of the strongest Debuff effects kicking around & it isn't as widely available as most others. Fallout gets a bad rap bc it requires a teammate death, but it's actually pretty powerful if someone dies in a convenient location/situation. I'd agree that Radiation Infection has seen a significant loss of impactfulness because of IOs, but I'd still say Rad is one of the stronger support sets when taken as a whole. The one support set I will say has probably become redundant is Force Fields, as +def is one of the easiest things to boost with IOs & I can't recall it having any Offensive buffs to pair with it. Certainly not useless, but other powersets can boost defense AND increase the group's damage output. 

[Shred Monkey]

1 hour ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Now that I've gotten support types up into the 40's...  I'm not so sure I agree.  The majority of the time other folks on the team are IOed out or (worse yet) loaded with Incarnate powers, and I end up feeling like a ninth wheel.  My rad/rad defender almost never gets his debuffs off (unless there's a particularly nasty AV), leaving him mostly acting as a low rent blaster.  And not a particularly useful low rent blaster at that as the mobs are all but melted before my first blast is recharged.

It's demoralizing and actively makes me not want to play those toons.

This issue is more specifically related to debuffs.  Buffs persist from spawn to spawn since they're used on teammates.  Debuffs are used on enemies that keep dieing before the debuffs matter.  It's similar to "corpse blasting" except it's "corpse debuffing."

 

The solution is obvious to me.... and it's... Oh wow, look at that bird up there in the sky!  .... *runs ahead and attacks the next spawn before anyone else gets there*  

 

 

 

 

 

[Solarverse]

2 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

...as the mobs are all but melted before my first blast is recharged.

It's demoralizing and actively makes me not want to play those toons.

This I feel is the primary issue. Mobs melting before you can even pull off a long animated AoE.

 

Even worse as you have mentioned, the mobs are destroyed before you can even cast your primary debuff.

 

This IMHO is the primary and root foundation for the cause of threads popping up like this one.

[Abraxus]

It's not perfect, but there are things that, fortunately, are available to mitigate things a little.  Difficulty settings set sufficiently high enough to present more of a challenge.  Teaming with folks that wish to play with the same preferences as oneself, just to name a couple. 

 

It may not be perfect, but it's still more fun for me than anything else I've played in the years since it was gone.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Abraxus

[golstat2003]

On 11/20/2019 at 1:47 PM, ShardWarrior said:

I agree.  The suggestion seems to be coming from a false premise that support ATs (eg. Defenders / Controllers) are in some way not desirable.  In my experience, this simply isn't true.  Any AT is desirable and welcome on any team I run.  All of them bring something to the table and I have been on many successful TFs without the "optimal" team makeup.  The "trinity" as a requirement is a relic in my opinion.  

 

I've said this in other threads - the problem is not with power creep or incarnates overpowering everyone.  The problem is there is not enough content designed for Incarnate level teams to be a challenge for them. 

Pretty much where i was coming from.

[golstat2003]

On 11/20/2019 at 2:12 PM, nzer said:

I'm not entirely sure why people are talking about content requiring optimal team comps when no one has asked for that. The original comment was about players being encouraged, but not required, to have diverse team comps that include support characters rather than being able to steamroll everything with, say, eight blasters, which you can absolutely currently do.

I don't think that needs any encouragement at all. Others disagree. /shrug.

[golstat2003]

22 hours ago, Apparition said:

 

Yep.  I am happy to have whatever on my team and play with whatever.  But if I see someone forming something in LFG and they say, "Need a tank!"  Or "Need a healer!" that's a very large warning sign.

Pretty much this. I avoid those teams like the plague.

[golstat2003]

19 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Meh, I don't see it that way. Sometimes players, especially like myself prefer a well rounded team. Has nothing to do with what we need. I guess each will look in to it what they will, but I simply don't agree.

How long are you waiting wait around for that team if what you need isn't on? 15 minutes? 30, and hour?

Personally when I form teams I adjust my expectations and go. If a team leader forming a tf is waiting around for "such and such" I pretty much excuse myself and get on a team that is already to go with whoever answers the tells. We pretty much do fine.

 

Incarnate Content/trials different story. I can see why those would wait for the right mix depending on the trail. Anything outside of that . . . . ummm no. I'm sorry but this game just isn't that difficult. And I'd bet a vast majority of folks prefer it that way if a poll was run.

 

We have some content that requires that kind of setup where more balanced teams are a good thing, and hopefully the devs will build more. I just don't think outside of Incarnate content it's needed to be encouraged.

Edited November 21, 2019 by golstat2003

[Solarverse]

7 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Pretty much this. I avoid those teams like the plague.

I never have requested specific roles...not normally. It's rare. But I don't think that players who do are bad. That's a badly generalized assumption. I have no issues joining teams who are looking for specific roles. I don't recall them ever being bad teams any more than I experience bad teams on any other aspect of the game.  That's just from my perspective. 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Solarverse

[golstat2003]

4 hours ago, AWOL said:

 

And I completely disagree. The value of certain ATs has not been erroded. Certainly not for controllers, dominators, defenders, etc.

 

Your experience just isn't what I've been seeing since COH HC came online.

[Solarverse]

8 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

How long are you waiting wait around for that team if what you need isn't on? 15 minutes? 30, and hour?

Personally when I form teams I adjust my expectations and go. If a team leader forming a tf is waiting around for "such and such" I pretty much excuse myself and get on a team that is already to go with whoever answers the tells. We pretty much do fine.

 

Incarnate Content/trials different story. I can see why those would wait for the right mix depending on the trail. Anything outside of that . . . . ummm no. I'm sorry but this game just isn't that difficult. And I'd bet a vast majority of folks prefer it that way if a poll was run.

 

We have some content that requires that kind of setup where more balanced teams are a good thing, and hopefully the devs will build more. I just don't think outside of Incarnate content it's needed to be encouraged.

Trust me, I have said, "Let's just rock with whatever we get" several times. Like I said, it's rare when I try to build well rounded teams. Most of the time I rock with whatever.  When I do try to build well rounded teams, it's mostly because of the nostalgia I get when I see a team with a Controller, a couple Defenders, a couple Blasters, a Scrapper and a Tank. It's a lot of fun for me. As said before, has nothing to do with "need."

Edited November 21, 2019 by Solarverse

[golstat2003]

19 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Trust me, I have said, "Let's just rock with whatever we get" several times. Like I said, it's rare when I try to build well rounded teams. Most of the time I rock with whatever.  When I do try to build well rounded teams, it's mostly because of the nostalgia I get when I see a team with a Controller, a couple Defenders, a couple Blasters, a Scrapper and a Tank. It's a lot of fun for me. As said before, has nothing to do with "need."

As an interesting counter to some of the things said in this thread, please read this thread . . . especially about the first page.

I would say be careful what you wish for.

 

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by golstat2003

[quixoteprog]

9 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Trust me, I have said, "Let's just rock with whatever we get" several times. Like I said, it's rare when I try to build well rounded teams. Most of the time I rock with whatever. 

And maybe "rock with however many" as well? Especially if you are just running a mish team. I know the team XP bonus is better when you have larger numbers and the overlapping buffs and other synergy of a full group often allows you to do more difficult stuff == more XP as well. I just prefer to have the time I spend in game playing the game and not waiting to reach some optimal setting so we  can run +4/x8 safely.

 

I prefer to spam in LFG for members a couple times, when you get 3-5 if no one responds after a couple minutes just run with it. On most content, especially radio missions. You can still send invites as you go. If you have a bad mix or weak group set the diff. low and as people get added/switch out, you can up it.