Trick Arrow Mastermind picking between Demon and Necromancy

[Talionis]

I am planning on returning and think I’ll play a Trick Arrow Mastermind and I am leaning towards Demon or Necromancy for a cursed bow theme.  Either could work.  Which will be more fun.  I am leaning towards a Heat/Fire Ancillary for Hellfire.  
 

Seems like Demon is more offensive and Necromancy is more defensive.  Any suggestions or hidden gems in making the decision?

[plainguy]

Demons have hell on earth which fits with the theme. 

 

And from what  I hear the Soul extraction isn't anything to waste your time on. Its a power you need to be cognizant of to use. Which means you will be forgetting to use it during a fight. 

I think also as you mentioned  as well. Demons being defensive fits well with the debuffs of Trick Arrow.

[Talionis]

Demons seem offensive in nature, not defensive.  Am I missing something?   I haven’t played either set. 
 

The main biproduct of Demons is reducing enemy resistance.  
 

The main biproduct of Necromancy is minus enemy to hit and Life Drains heal and the minions Life Drain attacks.  
 

Trick Arrows Flash Arrow stacks with the minus to hit for enemies.  I think one of the Aeros also reduces incoming damage which would stack with the resistances that the Demon minions use.  

[plainguy]

Was going to edit my post but would be confusing..

 

You are correct I meant to say Demons are OFFENSIVE..  

Sorry for the confusion.

 

I didn't want to get into the mechanics but since you brought up defenses..

 

Simple suggestion is Range Cap Hover blaster.. Use super speed and Hover..  Turn hover on when the fight is about to start and turn off super speed to save endurance.

 

Maybe try to get Aid other and Aid Self  to help out the pets. 

 

 

 

[Talionis]

I was. Thinking fire for my ancillary.  Is that smart it works on theme and gives me Bonfire and Fireball (if I want it). Char can stack with our single target hold.  

[Crysis]

All I’ll share is that my Demons/TA MM was the only AT on Live I ever took to 50 and then fully IO’d and T4’d out.....and then deleted in disgust.  Nothing I tried would really improve the set.  It’s likely the weakest combo I’ve ever played.  Thematically it all worked.  But the TA power set for MM’s is very watered down.  
 

Procs in HC may augment it better now but it left such a bad taste in my mouth back then I’ve never looked back.

[Talionis]

5 hours ago, Crysis said:

All I’ll share is that my Demons/TA MM was the only AT on Live I ever took to 50 and then fully IO’d and T4’d out.....and then deleted in disgust.  Nothing I tried would really improve the set.  It’s likely the weakest combo I’ve ever played.  Thematically it all worked.  But the TA power set for MM’s is very watered down.  
 

Procs in HC may augment it better now but it left such a bad taste in my mouth back then I’ve never looked back.

Cry sis,  that doesn’t bode well.  Necromancy would work too but that’s likely less damage.  The problem for you was the lack of power in Trick Arrow?

[tjknight]

2 hours ago, Talionis said:

Cry sis,  that doesn’t bode well.  Necromancy would work too but that’s likely less damage.  The problem for you was the lack of power in Trick Arrow?

Trick Arrow is awesome on Defenders but noticeably weaker on Masterminds.  TA for MM's is better on Pet Sets that not only can buff themselves, but buff you as well. With that in mind I'd go Demons or Robots.  Here's an old Demon/TA build that might give you some ideas.. 

 

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.962
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Demon Summoning
Secondary Power Set: Trick Arrow
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Presence
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Summon Demonlings -- BldMnd-Acc(A), BldMnd-Dmg(3), BldMnd-Acc/Dmg(5), BldMnd-Dmg/EndRdx(7), BldMnd-Acc/EndRdx(7), BldMnd-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(25)
Level 1: Entangling Arrow -- GrvAnc-Acc/Immob/Rchg(A), GrvAnc-Acc/Rchg(37)
Level 2: Lash -- ExpStr-Dam%(A), FrcFdb-Rechg%(3), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg(5), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), CrsImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43)
Level 4: Glue Arrow -- ImpSwf-Acc/Slow(A), ImpSwf-Dam%(37), ImpSwf-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(37), ImpSwf-Acc/EndRdx(40), ImpSwf-Dmg/Slow(46), ImpSwf-Rng/Slow(46)
Level 6: Enchant Demon -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Corruption -- WntBit-Acc/Dmg(A), WntBit-Dmg/Rchg(9), WntBit-Rchg/SlowProc(9), WntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(11), WntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(25)
Level 10: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 12: Summon Demons -- SvrRgh-Acc/Dmg(A), SvrRgh-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(13), SvrRgh-PetResDam(13), BldMnd-Acc/Dmg(19), BldMnd-Dmg(23), BldMnd-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(23)
Level 14: Tactics -- AdjTrg-ToHit/EndRdx(A), RctRtc-ToHit/Rchg(15), RctRtc-ToHit(15)
Level 16: Poison Gas Arrow -- LthRps-Acc/Rchg(A), LthRps-Acc/Sleep/Rchg(17), LthRps-Acc/Sleep(17), LthRps-EndRdx/Sleep(50)
Level 18: Hell on Earth -- CaltoArm-+Def(Pets)(A), ExpRnf-+Res(Pets)(19)
Level 20: Acid Arrow -- AchHee-ResDeb%(A), TchofLadG-%Dam(21), PstBls-Dam%(21), RechRdx-I(40)
Level 22: Provoke -- MckBrt-Taunt(A), MckBrt-Taunt/Rchg(43), MckBrt-Taunt/Rng(46), MckBrt-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(50)
Level 24: Kick -- KntCrs-Acc/KB(A)
Level 26: Summon Demon Prince -- BldMnd-Acc/Dmg(A), BldMnd-Acc(27), BldMnd-Dmg(27), BldMnd-Dmg/EndRdx(29), BldMnd-Acc/EndRdx(31), BldMnd-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(31)
Level 28: Disruption Arrow -- RechRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(29)
Level 30: Tough -- RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctArm-ResDam(31), RctArm-EndRdx(33), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(33), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(33), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(34)
Level 32: Abyssal Empowerment -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Oil Slick Arrow -- TmpRdn-Acc/Dmg/Slow(A), TmpRdn-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(36), PstBls-Dmg/Rchg(36), PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36)
Level 38: Weave -- RedFrt-Def(A), RedFrt-EndRdx(39), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(39), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(39), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 41: Charged Armor -- Ags-Psi/Status(A), StdPrt-ResKB(42), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(42), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(42), Ags-ResDam(43)
Level 44: EMP Arrow -- Lck-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(A), Lck-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(45), Lck-%Hold(45), Lck-Acc/Hold(45)
Level 47: Maneuvers -- RedFrt-Def(A), RedFrt-EndRdx(48), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(48), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(48), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 49: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Supremacy 
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(34)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 50: Spiritual Partial Core Revamp 
------------

Edited December 29, 2019 by tjknight

[Crysis]

3 hours ago, Talionis said:

Cry sis,  that doesn’t bode well.  Necromancy would work too but that’s likely less damage.  The problem for you was the lack of power in Trick Arrow?

I really thought that Demons and the -RES of poison and gas arrow would synergize better than they actually did.  For MM’s I think the -RES is around 15%, which isn’t trivial (stacked) but really not enough to make a big difference in actual play.

 

Beyond that you’ve got...oil slick.

 

The issue isn’t Demons, it’s Trick Arrow.  Ironically the best combo I’ve found for /TA MM’s is Bots/TA, because of all the burn patches.  But I can’t think of a more thematically incompatible build.

 

Ninja/TA has some synergy but lolNinjas.

[Redlynne]

2 hours ago, tjknight said:

Trick Arrow is awesome on Defenders but noticeably weaker on Masterminds.  TA for MM's is better on Pet Sets that not only can buff themselves, but buff you as well.

The problem is that Trick Arrow is debuff only and does pretty much NOTHING to buff your Pets (and I'm counting healing them as a subset of "buffing" their HP).  That's a problem because Pets get damaged ... no matter what you do, your Pets will always take damage ... and without a means/method to counter (or heal) that damage, it just pushes you towards resummoning because your Pets are going collapse on you ... A LOT.

 

Trick Arrow is "fine" for a Mastermind who never draws aggro personally and/or their Pets never draw aggro.  Pets that don't draw aggro don't take as much damage as Pets that have drawn aggro.  So the moral of the story is that if you've got a scheme for PREVENTING the drawing of aggro, you can get away with playing Trick Arrow on a Mastermind ... but that's a pretty difficult row to hoe on a consistent basis.

[Crysis]

14 hours ago, Redlynne said:

The problem is that Trick Arrow is debuff only and does pretty much NOTHING to buff your Pets (and I'm counting healing them as a subset of "buffing" their HP).  That's a problem because Pets get damaged ... no matter what you do, your Pets will always take damage ... and without a means/method to counter (or heal) that damage, it just pushes you towards resummoning because your Pets are going collapse on you ... A LOT.

 

Trick Arrow is "fine" for a Mastermind who never draws aggro personally and/or their Pets never draw aggro.  Pets that don't draw aggro don't take as much damage as Pets that have drawn aggro.  So the moral of the story is that if you've got a scheme for PREVENTING the drawing of aggro, you can get away with playing Trick Arrow on a Mastermind ... but that's a pretty difficult row to hoe on a consistent basis.

This is well said.  And exactly the issue I had with Demons/TA.  My Demons could take care of themselves more or less, but I could do very little to help them along other than twang twang twang piddly debuffs.  It's just not a fun set (for me anyways) and not a very effective set relative to just about all the other secondaries available to a MM.

[SeraphimKensai]

I also have a demon/ta mm, and mind you it's only lvl 41, never in all my years of joking about a healing/buff arrow has the notion of one been so moreso desired in the mm version of trick arrow.

 

That and I honestly wish the debuffs for TA were more impactful, but that's a bit of another discussion.

[Brutal Justice]

If only you could make a tactical arrow instead of a trick arrow would you feel better off?   Seriously, how has tactical arrow remained at its current level and trick arrow received nothing as compensation?!  

 

On a a more positive note, I had a merc/ta on live that was fun.  It wasn’t top tier performance but it was fun.  With the ranged pet fixes coming I am hoping for some better value out of trick arrow.  Every little bit helps.  

[oedipus_tex]

Trick Arrow is an underperforming set on any AT, but particularly on Masterminds. 

 

Storm Summoning accomplishes what TA is trying to do, be an effective damage and debuff set that allows you to overlook lack of buffs. Storm succeeds because the damage is respectable. TA not so much. 

 

Adding damage to a few TA powers and cutting the recharge on Oil Slick to Storm-ish levels would help a lot.

[Force Redux]

IMO trick arrow only really shines with Illusion Control. It does nothing to protect the user or allies. It needs a complimentary set that is able to cover that glaring weakness.

 

For MM I'd only ever consider it with Beasts because they can self cap Defense through Fortify Pack, and the pets have some minor healing and good resists. Even then I'd rather go Kinetics or Time. I mean thematically Beasts and TA go well together. Mechanically it leaves much to be desired.

 

Back on track, of the two proposed I'd reluctantly go with Demons. Lich is not reliable enough control on his own, so I'd rely on Demon's superior damage, resists. Also the OF kd proc in T1 pets to help add more mitigation. 

 

Unfortunately it still sounds like a chore ☹️.

[Redlynne]

5 hours ago, Force Redux said:

IMO trick arrow only really shines with Illusion Control. It does nothing to protect the user or allies. It needs a complimentary set that is able to cover that glaring weakness.

THAT makes a LOT of sense ... and once you put it that way, the truth/reality of the situation is glaringly obvious.

5 hours ago, Force Redux said:

For MM I'd only ever consider it with Beasts because they can self cap Defense through Fortify Pack, and the pets have some minor healing and good resists.

Makes for something of a "whacktastic Hunter" styled character.  But again, now that you've said that, it does make a fair bit of sense.  Glue Arrow helps prevent runners.  Flash Arrow helps you set up ambushes.  Poison Gas Arrow helps ... somehow.  Disruption Arrow makes $Targets go down faster.

 

Throw in all 3 personal attacks so as to ground flyers (among other things) and you'd have a decently active Mastermind to play who isn't JUST a debuff dispenser for your Pets.

5 hours ago, Force Redux said:

Even then I'd rather go Kinetics or Time. I mean thematically Beasts and TA go well together. Mechanically it leaves much to be desired.

Agreed on all counts.  The weakness of the combination lies in the performance profile of Trick Arrow being so lacking relative to the alternatives.  You give up much to gain not a lot with Trick Arrow.

[Force Redux]

You are quite on point, Redlynne. Trick Arrow plays like half of a set - from the earliest days when devs seemed unsure of the role of debuffs. From the longish recharge times, to half hearted debuff numbers. 

 

Compare to Cold Domination or Time Manipulation.

 

How TA came from the same original development pool as Dark Miasma, I'm not sure. It bears the same overcautious, punitive handiwork that originally designed the scrapper/tanker armor sets that had exclusive armor toggles (I.e Dark Armor, Invul, etc. 

 

All my grumbling aside, Beasts is a terrific set to run some of the less solo-friendly support secondaries. If you'd reconsider using Beasts over Demons or Necro, I'd enjoy hearing about your experiences with the combo. I just took a Beasts/Time to 50 last night and it's become my new favorite MM over my Thugs/Time (or even my old fave, Bots/FF). 🙂

[Crysis]

BTW, don't know if anyone already mentioned it or not, but in the Flavor of the Month thread, there were currently ZERO Necro/TA Masterminds at 50, and if I read it right, very few at all.

 

That should tell you something right there.

 

….or that could be a challenge for you!

 

Personally, Archery attacks and Tactical Arrow has more than filled the twang twang twang need for me.  If that's your thing, go check out anything other than a MM.  Between Lore Pets and the Epic/Patron pools, you can still get some pets around you.  

 

*EDIT* Found the post

 

 

Bottom three LEAST popular sets for MM's:

 

 

101	Mercenaries	Trick Arrow	2
102	Thugs	Trick Arrow	2
103	Demon Summoning	Trick Arrow	1

 

 

Number to left is rank, number to right is number of players using that AT at 50.  Truthfully, I think I may have been the sole Demon/TA player.  I tried it again thinking perhaps the procs would make a difference.  I PL'd one back in May and then deleted it once I realized the Procs made almost zero difference to how it played in Live.

 

If you surf the whole thread, you'll also see that while a handful of hardy souls started Necro/TA MM's, none had made it to 50.  That would make it a "unicorn" if you did.

 

Archetype	Primary	Secondary	Level 50s	Total Attempts
Mastermind	Necromancy	Trick Arrow	0	65

 

Edited December 31, 2019 by Crysis

[Talionis]

That settles it, I’ll go Necromancy to be the Unicorn.  Any advice on ancillary/patrons?  Since I’m going into uncharted territory....

[Force Redux]

7 hours ago, Talionis said:

That settles it, I’ll go Necromancy to be the Unicorn.  Any advice on ancillary/patrons?  Since I’m going into uncharted territory....

I'd recommend Heat Mastery for Bonfire. Lights up Oil Slick, and provides more needed mitigation, plus damage.

 

RotP can get you back up again if things go south. You should be playing this build at range, well behind your pets, so aggro on rez should be minimal.

[Redlynne]

30 minutes ago, Force Redux said:

I'd recommend Heat Mastery for Bonfire. Lights up Oil Slick, and provides more needed mitigation, plus damage.

Unnecessary.

According to @Sir Myshkin's research on Defender Proc Monsters you can slot a Positron's Blast proc into Acid Arrow (base recharge 20s with 8ft radius) and pretty reliably proc Energy damage ... which is exactly what you need to light an Oil Slick (and doesn't require a power pick).

[Force Redux]

Ooooooohhhhhh. Niiiice! 😃😃

 

I would still think about Bonfire tho. TA tends to play at the edge of the battle zone. 

Edited January 1, 2020 by Force Redux

[Talionis]

5 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Unnecessary.

According to @Sir Myshkin's research on Defender Proc Monsters you can slot a Positron's Blast proc into Acid Arrow (base recharge 20s with 8ft radius) and pretty reliably proc Energy damage ... which is exactly what you need to light an Oil Slick (and doesn't require a power pick).

Is there something better mechanically than Heat?

[Dr Causality]

On 12/31/2019 at 2:22 PM, Talionis said:

That settles it, I’ll go Necromancy to be the Unicorn.  Any advice on ancillary/patrons?  Since I’m going into uncharted territory....

 

How's that Necro/TA MM going?

[TheSpiritFox]

On 1/1/2020 at 12:00 AM, Redlynne said:

Unnecessary.

According to @Sir Myshkin's research on Defender Proc Monsters you can slot a Positron's Blast proc into Acid Arrow (base recharge 20s with 8ft radius) and pretty reliably proc Energy damage ... which is exactly what you need to light an Oil Slick (and doesn't require a power pick).

Come on now lighting oil slick is an ancillary benefit you take bonfire for the mitigation.