The time has come to fix AoE Holds/Mezzes

[Redlynne]

12 minutes ago, Vanden said:

You shouldn't be able to turn entire spawns into statues with a single power every group, though. That's why the AoE controls were nerfed in the first place.

EVERY spawn group would be "a bit much" ... granted ... but I don't have a problem with being able to do that once every 50-60 seconds (when accounting for recharge buffing).  Being able to do that approximately once per minute wouldn't be game breaking.  I mean, to hear people talk about Team-8 steamroller speeds, that would be ... what ... once per 5 to 10+ spawn groups or something?

 

Because, let's be honest ... if you can perma-enforce a City of Statues status once per minute, your rate of XP Gain is going to be pretty darn slow if you're limited to that when solo ... let alone if you're holding back a Team-8 in order to pull that stunt on EVERY spawn group.  Wouldn't you agree?

 

Some people want to make sure that it simply CAN'T BE DONE ... AT ALL ... EVER ... without looking at the flipside of asking what it would "cost" in order to achieve that level of performance.

 

And that's not even considering the fact that there are plenty of damaging NUKE powers that can be used more often(!) which deal damage(!) ... because Defeated $Targets are "controlled" FOREVER ... while Mez durations expire.

[Vanden]

13 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

EVERY spawn group would be "a bit much" ... granted ... but I don't have a problem with being able to do that once every 50-60 seconds (when accounting for recharge buffing).  Being able to do that approximately once per minute wouldn't be game breaking.  I mean, to hear people talk about Team-8 steamroller speeds, that would be ... what ... once per 5 to 10+ spawn groups or something?

Well, that's what you can do now. With 300% recharge, AoE holds are up every 60 seconds.

 

To be clear, I'm not against buffing AoE holds. I think they should definitely lose the accuracy penalties (the PBAoE ones should maybe even get an accuracy bonus), and either get an increase in duration by about 5 seconds or a reduction in recharge time by about 40 seconds (but not both). However, the intention behind the original nerf is still valid IMO, and it shouldn't be undone completely.

[Redlynne]

4 minutes ago, Vanden said:

With 300% recharge, AoE holds are up every 60 seconds.

How ... "common" ... is 300% recharge in Level 50 builds?

 

To be clear, I'm not asking *IF* it can be done, particularly with Alpha slotting for it ... I'm asking how prevalent/common it is.  In other words, how much of an edge case scenario is +300% recharge?

 

In other words, if the vast supermajority of builds out there aren't in the +300% recharge category/range ... should the fact that +300% recharge is possible to achieve be the overriding deciding factor on the game balance involved?

 

Or to put it another way ... does the fact that +300% recharge is theoretically possible and attainable mean that everyone else who isn't at that lofty degree of recharge has to "suffer" for the possibility of getting there?  Does +300% recharge in essence "get veto power" over the balancing of powers and builds?

 

Because if the answer is "YES" then you've just held everyone hostage to the needs of the most powerful builds theoretically possible that most people won't have or be playing.  You're balancing around the maximalist edge case ... not the norm (let alone the median or average) of performance.

[Vanden]

15 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

How ... "common" ... is 300% recharge in Level 50 builds?

 

To be clear, I'm not asking *IF* it can be done, particularly with Alpha slotting for it ... I'm asking how prevalent/common it is.  In other words, how much of an edge case scenario is +300% recharge?

300% recharge isn’t a common number for a build to reach on its own, but I assumed you meant external buffs when you said “accounting for recharge buffing.”

[Haijinx]

if enemy spawns could call for help from other spawns, you could have the AOE holds up a lot more 

[Redlynne]

33 minutes ago, Vanden said:

300% recharge isn’t a common number for a build to reach on its own, but I assumed you meant external buffs when you said “accounting for recharge buffing.”

To a first order simplification ...

• +100%(-ish) from slotting alone
• +100%(-ish) from global set bonuses
• +70% from Hasten

... leaves another +30%(-ish) to be obtained from Alpha slotting to make up the difference getting you to +300%.

 

Obviously this is a "when taken to extremes" build design choice, but that's essentially the direction you'd have to go in to achieve that magnitude of recharge buffing.  Force Feedback also "counts" for this, obviously, but Force Feedback procs are intermittent rather than something which can be reliably perma.

28 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

if enemy spawns could call for help from other spawns, you could have the AOE holds up a lot more 

If enemy spawns could call for help from other spawns, they ought to be doing it under basically ALL conditions of being attacked, not just when they get mezzed.

 

I'd put that notion under the "be careful what you wish for" category.

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

 

If enemy spawns could call for help from other spawns, they ought to be doing it under basically ALL conditions of being attacked, not just when they get mezzed.

 I would love for that to be a difficulty option.

[RabbitUp]

3 hours ago, Vanden said:

Well, that's what you can do now. With 300% recharge, AoE holds are up every 60 seconds.

 

To be clear, I'm not against buffing AoE holds. I think they should definitely lose the accuracy penalties (the PBAoE ones should maybe even get an accuracy bonus), and either get an increase in duration by about 5 seconds or a reduction in recharge time by about 40 seconds (but not both). However, the intention behind the original nerf is still valid IMO, and it shouldn't be undone completely.

With 300% recharge, I can use my AoE stun every 22.5s, does it really matter than I have to throw an immob after? And if I'm Plant or Elec, my AoE confuse is up every 15 seconds.

[Vanden]

13 minutes ago, RabbitUp said:

With 300% recharge, I can use my AoE stun every 22.5s, does it really matter than I have to throw an immob after? And if I'm Plant or Elec, my AoE confuse is up every 15 seconds.

It matters more than you think. The extra time spent casting adds up, there’s two accuracy checks which means double the chance of some sort of failure, and you’re dedicating two powers and two powers’ worth of slots to the same tactic.

 

As for Elec and Plant’s confuses, the Elec one takes time to affect large amounts of enemies, and everyone knows Plant’s is way too strong.

[Galaxy Brain]

As for an AoE stun, or even the AoE sleep elec has tho... what's the functional difference most of the time vs an AoE hold? Stun maybe has them wander a foot in a direction, sleep and fear they can attack back but it's highly unlikely and they stay mostly immobile, and all these are usually options you can fire per fight.

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

 I would love for that to be a difficulty option.

I'd vote to have this be a thing all the time.  If you want to avoid it, you have to pull them so they didn't have LOS with other groups. 

[SeraphimKensai]

6 hours ago, MetaVileTerror said:

I'd just like to point to Atomic Manipulation's Radioactive Cloud.
Activation:  1.07s
Recharge:  90s !!!
Endurance Cost:  20.18
Accuracy:  1.00x !
Area Effect:  Unlisted?
Target Cap:  Unlisted?
Mag 3 Hold for 17.15s at 35 / 19.07s at 50 !
 

and to Plant Manipulation's Vines.

Activation Time:  3.10s

Recharge:  90s !!!

Endurance Cost:  20.18

Accuracy:  0.80x

Area Effect:  15ft

Target Cap: 10

Mag 3 Hold for 8.58s at 35 / 9.54s at 50

If Blasters are allowed to have this level of AoE Control, why aren't Controllers and Dominators?

I know some people will call for these to be nerfed, but it's not like they're actually overpowered.  They're reasonable, frankly.  What's unreasonable if where the Control Sets' Holds are presently.

If people are honestly, actually concerned about "City of Statues to Beat Up," let's perhaps invest in giving enemies more tools to counter Control in large mobs.  Such as Support units who cast Control Protection Buffs on their allies.  Or low value PBAoE Status Resistance Buffs from Lts and medium value from Bosses, so their presence makes Minions a little more challenging to overwhelm completely.

I guess if you want to be an AoE controller, its better to run as a blaster, aoe hold everything, pop buildup/aim and nuke your own mobs. When slotted out, damn near every mob encounter. That way you can delete your own statues before anyone notices them as statues.

[Leogunner]

6 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Except ... City of Statues is what Controllers are FOR(!!) ... it's what Controllers were MADE to do!

If you can't do damage, you fail at Blaster.

If you can't buff/debuff, you fail at Defender.

If you can't do damage, you fail at Scrapper.

If you can't take aggro/damage, you fail at Tanker.

Quit your bitchin'.

 

You're whining like Controllers can't already incapacitate multiple spawns at once for extended periods of time already.

 

 

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, RabbitUp said:

With 300% recharge, I can use my AoE stun every 22.5s, does it really matter than I have to throw an immob after? And if I'm Plant or Elec, my AoE confuse is up every 15 seconds.

Doh! But we're balancing around SOs!  IOs don't matter! derp da derp da derp da derp!

 

This just solidifies that the AoE holds SHOULD NOT be buffed.

[RabbitUp]

3 hours ago, Vanden said:

It matters more than you think. The extra time spent casting adds up, there’s two accuracy checks which means double the chance of some sort of failure, and you’re dedicating two powers and two powers’ worth of slots to the same tactic.

 

As for Elec and Plant’s confuses, the Elec one takes time to affect large amounts of enemies, and everyone knows Plant’s is way too strong.

Not really a problem when you would be taking and slotting your immob anyway, because Controllers have very limited AoE damage.

 

But even if we remove the immob from the equation, is the fact that a stunned mob can wander a few steps really a reason for the massive difference of cooldowns?

 

And if Plant is OP, how come nobody's complaining about it the way people complain about a potential AoE hold buff?

 

1 hour ago, Leogunner said:

Doh! But we're balancing around SOs!  IOs don't matter! derp da derp da derp da derp!

 

This just solidifies that the AoE holds SHOULD NOT be buffed.

Other powers overperforming is the reason not to take a look at a power that is supposed to be the crown jewel of every control set but is actually entirely skippable and close to a noob trap?

 

Can't argue with that logic.

[Galaxy Brain]

3 minutes ago, RabbitUp said:

And if Plant is OP, how come nobody's complaining about it the way people complain about a potential AoE hold buff?

I tried to have TW toned down a smidge and that caused a hellstorm, and even after showing numerical data it is still downright heresy to ask for a nerf. Bringing it up for Plant will have the same reaction lol

[Haijinx]

35 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I tried to have TW toned down a smidge and that caused a hellstorm, and even after showing numerical data it is still downright heresy to ask for a nerf. Bringing it up for Plant will have the same reaction lol

I think maybe they should revert TW momentum to what was actually tested.  

 

It will still be out in front I'd guess, but at least War Mace could keep close.

[boggo2300]

5 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

 I would love for that to be a difficulty option.

That would be so awesome, however I suspect the disaster that is the mob ai code will make it, er tricky...

[boggo2300]

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

I'd vote to have this be a thing all the time.  If you want to avoid it, you have to pull them so they didn't have LOS with other groups. 

I wonder if there is a way to trick the infamous mob ai by adding a pretend, invisible splash damage to aggro the nearby mobs...

Edited December 31, 2019 by boggo2300
removed redundant splash

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, boggo2300 said:

I wonder if there is a way to trick the infamous mob ai by adding a pretend, invisible splash damage to aggro the nearby mobs...

Have boss mob cast a taunt effect on the players?  Idk

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

Have boss mob cast a taunt effect on the players?  Idk

Ooh yeah, thats a better idea!!

[Leogunner]

8 hours ago, RabbitUp said:

Other powers overperforming is the reason not to take a look at a power that is supposed to be the crown jewel of every control set but is actually entirely skippable and close to a noob trap?

 

Can't argue with that logic.

You're self-proclaiming the AoE holds are crown jewels.

 

If you ask me what the crown jewel of Ice Control is, it's Ice Slick.  The crown jewel of Gravity Control is Wormhole.  The crown jewel of Plant Control is Seeds of Confusion.

 

 

[Myrmidon]

57 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

You're self-proclaiming the AoE holds are crown jewels.

 

If you ask me what the crown jewel of Ice Control is, it's Ice Slick.  The crown jewel of Gravity Control is Wormhole.  The crown jewel of Plant Control is Seeds of Confusion.

 

 

Indeed.

[Myrmidon]

6 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Have boss mob cast a taunt effect on the players?  Idk

Make it one pulse of the current Rise to the Challenge (Mag 3, 2.5 second duration). That way it wears off quickly enough that aggro can be taken by others.

[boggo2300]

50 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

Make it one pulse of the current Rise to the Challenge (Mag 3, 2.5 second duration). That way it wears off quickly enough that aggro can be taken by others.

I'm really liking how this thought is going, maybe it should get it's own thread to draw dev attention?