Consolidated CoH difficulty thread (Includes Poll!)

[Sakura Tenshi]

One difficulty option I'd like to see is to have end mission bosses of various 'generic' missions potentially scale up. Like fighting EBs or even full AV versions of boss critters in Tip Missions and Radios/newspapers. Admittedly, part of this is because I'd like to see this backported to AE so we can get some 'generic AVs/EBs' in enemy factions, even if it means we'd have to live with getting our rears handed to us by AV Flambeaux.

 

[Myrmidon]

Already posted mine.

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

Just to touch base:

 

So far, ~81% of respondents are in favor of sweeping changes to the game when it comes to difficulty, but only if it is optional and has scaled rewards

(32% on the optional diff, 17% on boosted rewards, and 16% on both global diff overhaul and looking into IOs/Incarnates)

 

Only ~19% of respondents are in favor of specialized difficulty content, minor changes, or no changes at all

(8% on minor changes, 6% on only certain special content being difficult, and 5% want no changes)

 

 

 

~46% of respondents want to see new/specific enemy tweaks that likewise carry stronger rewards

(26% want to see "Advanced" enemies introduced, and 20% want to in turn see rewards for harder enemies / groups be boosted)

 

~28% of respondents want to see enemies just have adjusted stats, and/or specific ways to scale vs teams

(14% for both general enemy stat changes and some sort of ramping difficulty per team member)

 

~24% of respondents want to see enemies just have adjusted stats in general, specific ways to scale vs teams, and/or certain enemy groups to be revamped for challenge

(14% for both general enemy stat changes and some sort of ramping difficulty per team member, 9% for enemy group glow-ups)

 

~8% of respondents want to see changes to IO/Incarnate bonuses

 

~8% of respondents answered N/A to specifics

 

 

What I can gather here is that there is a strong desire for a better difficulty option to be available, emphasis on option, where enemies get stronger but more rewarding. Specifically changing up most encounters with new stats as well as special enemies thrown into the mix. There is some backing behind looking into IO/Incarnate values as well, but that is a 2nd place to just reworking the people we fight.

 

 

[gameboy1234]

11 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Just to touch base:

 

So far, ~81% of respondents are in favor of sweeping changes to the game when it comes to difficulty, but only if it is optional and has scaled rewards

(32% on the optional diff, 17% on boosted rewards, and 16% on both global diff overhaul and looking into IOs/Incarnates)

Be careful with this kind of analysis.  We have a very small sample size.  Only 45 people voted out of what I'm sure is a much much larger playing population.  There might be selection bias in that people who want such changes are the ones who would click on a thread like this. Many folks probably didn't bother to read or vote because they weren't interested.

 

This may give us some direction to work towards, but I don't think it's representative of the overall population's views.

[Galaxy Brain]

9 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

Be careful with this kind of analysis.  We have a very small sample size.  Only 45 people voted out of what I'm sure is a much much larger playing population.  There might be selection bias in that people who want such changes are the ones who would click on a thread like this. Many folks probably didn't bother to read or vote because they weren't interested.

 

This may give us some direction to work towards, but I don't think it's representative of the overall population's views.

Well yeah, but this is also based on whoever is interested in the topic to begin with. If people are ambivalent then they probably dont care either way to answer or say something about the difficulty 

 

We could share this to reddit / etc, but that requires a but of momentum too

Edited January 18, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[RikOz]

On 1/13/2020 at 11:17 AM, ShardWarrior said:

Adding more HP and ludicrous spike damage to NPCs is the easy answer, but to me this is not adding challenge, just drawing out the battle.

My years of playing WoW led to me feeling the same way about what I call "mechanics for the sake of mechanics". Stuff that is put in there just for the sake of putting it in there, regardless of whether or not it makes any actual sense. Like one raid boss whose laboratory had an exploding floor. Why would that even exist? "Yes, I choose to do my work in a room that has been constructed in such a way that hellfire randomly explodes from the floor." And then the accepted strategy for dealing with this mechanic (as well as many other mechanics with different encounters) was to "stack". "Stacking" meant to literally stack everybody on the same physical spot, that one spot where they'll be safe from the damage or other negative effect. A true metagame strategy that relies on the fact that there is no character collision detection in that game and multiple characters can simultaneously occupy the same physical space. It completely destroys any sense of verisimilitude.

 

On 1/13/2020 at 8:18 PM, Heraclea said:

Another major issue with goldside is that the alignment system there is team unfriendly from the starting gate.  Separating the player base and missions into Loyalist and Resistance means that you can't join teams running opposite faction content without a penalty.  It was an interesting idea poorly implemented.

 

This is also why mobs that stack debuffs and mez should be avoided as a way of artificially inflating difficulty.  That kind of mob punishes you for having a larger team, and devalues aggro attraction especially badly. 

Goldside is also unfriendly to serious altoholics. Back on live, I got one alt all the way through Praetoria to level 20, and in hindsight I think I only managed it because it was still very early in my "career" (I only discovered the game a year before sunset), so I had few alts at that point and it was easy to devote the necessary time to that one character. When I came back for HC, I had 30+ alts almost right out of the gate, due to resurrecting/rerolling a bunch of my old characters. And so right away, my attention was divided between a lot of different characters. So when I rolled a new character goldside, I'd play him for a couple levels, and then play with a number of my other alts, and it might be two weeks before I got back to the goldside alt again. By that time, I'd lost track of where he currently stood in relation to all the double-double-agent stuff going on, and the ensuing confusion made it very difficult to just log him and pick up where I left off. I ended up deleting him and just rerolling him blueside. It was after that that I resurrected my original Praetorian character from live, and just rolled her straight to blueside and wrote a bio about how she can't remember how she got her powers, but she has a vague impression of having once existed in a different world but can't recall anything specific about it.

 

 

In any case, my only combat-related "difficulty" issues in the current game are more limited to low-level mission content, rather than level cap stuff, and also happen need nerfing rather than buffing:

 

The overwhelming prevalence of enemies with abilities that low-level characters lack the tools to counter. Examples: Vahzilok toxic damage, CoT ghosts stacking -ToHit. The CoT thing seemed exacerbated during the first few months of HC, as the CoT maps were overpopulated with those ghosts - at least it's what I was seeing. I certainly understand RNG, but a months-long streak of maps populated almost entirely with ghosts and just a scattered few of the human CoT mobs seems like an oddly specific, overly-long streak of bad RNG luck for one player across multiple alts. The standard advice of "eat a yellow" becomes less than useful when you end up needing to eat them so often that you're out before you're halfway through the mission. In any case, that particular "streak" of ghost-overpopulation ended rather abruptly and the map populations became more balanced after one of the patches, which does make it seem that something was actually "off".

 

There is also the way maps seem to spawn at +1 to whatever my actual notoriety setting says, but doing so with no discernible pattern. I'll run one character through an arc, and every mission spawns +1. Then I'll run the same arc on a different character, at the same level as the previous character, and everything spawns matching my notoriety setting. The only thing that seems to consistently respect my notoriety setting is the named "boss" at the end of the mission. If I'm set to the default +0, the end "boss" is always a yellow-conning lieutenant with white-conning lieutenants, but on some alts everything on the map before him was yellow minions and orange lieutenants. On too many low-level alts, I have to drop to -1 just to get maps to spawn even-level (and then I get a white-conning lieutenant "boss" at the end). It's just weird when the end "boss" is the easiest kill on the map.

[DougGraves]

The problem with CoH is teaming.  If you are soloing I don't care what you do.  But if I am teaming with someone I care a lot about what they can do.

 

For the game to be fun it has to be in the sweet spot of difficulty.  You just die and do nothing is not fun, you press a button and kill all foes everywhere is not fun.  What is fun differs per person.

 

But IO builds and incarnate powers are so overpowered that they let a single player solo +4/x8 content.  Which means they can be on a team with the toughest content and not need the team.  They render any mission they are on not fun.

 

So having optional difficulty per player does not help.  It has to be by server or at least by team.  If you could create teams and set them for no IO set bonuses and incarnate powers, I would be happy with that.  90% of teams probably would not have those options on.  But I would team with the dozens of players who would prefer that.

[RCU7115]

I would love to see someone make a video doing a Solo STF using only Training Origin Enhancements running  on a +4/+8 difficulty setting.  Do it on a live stream so you can not video edit the content.

If someone would do that it would be great.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, RCU7115 said:

I would love to see someone make a video doing a Solo STF using only Training Origin Enhancements running  on a +4/+8 difficulty setting.  Do it on a live stream so you can not video edit the content.

If someone would do that it would be great.

Can you get lvl 50 TOs?

[Lines]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

Can you get lvl 50 TOs?

Just checked on AH and found some for sale, so apparently so.

[Galaxy Brain]

While the other enhancements are available for a sort of hard mode, and a TO run of the ITF would be hilarious, they are still sort of artificial difficulty in that you're just debuffing yourself and you have to go really out of your way to slot up like that...

[RCU7115]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Can you get lvl 50 TOs?

Yes you just go to the Freedom Corps store. Most of the Zones have them. I forget if they are level capped by zone.

[Avoca]

On more than average occasion, I find difficulty to be really easy. A team has higher odds to daydream and be fine. Which gets dull. Some sort of challenge is required to be requiring more focus, teamwork,collaboration. Globally. For every team and on all enemies in every encounter.

[azanimefan]

@Galaxy Brain

 

I dislike the format/questions in this poll, it doesn't ask the pertinent question and assumes answers/opinions.  

 

this should be reworked with the questions worded like this

 

Regarding difficulty scaling: (Pick one) 

1) I think HC difficulty is scaled just right, and don't think there should be changes

2) I think HC difficulty is scaled just right, however I am in favor of some changes

3) I think HC is too difficult, and should be made easier

4) I think HC is too easy, and should be made harder

 

(If) you want to change difficulty scaling, what changes are closest to what you'd like (chose as many as apply)

1) Additional difficulty options on the slider (larger team size scaling options such as 9 or 12 team sized options, and/or more level adjustment options such as +5 or -2)  

2) Make everything harder across the board

3) Harder unique foes (Elite bosses, AVs, GMs) across the board

4) Easier unique foes (Elite bosses, AVs, GMs) across the board

5) Make everything easier across the board

6) New unique iTrial/endgame/mission content (harder) 

7) New unique iTrial/endgame/mission content (easier) 

8) N/A (scaling is all right)

 

 

(If) you want additional difficulty options on the slider which changes would you like (chose as many as apply)

1) More level options (such as +5, +6, -2, -3) 

2) more team size options (such as +9, +10, ect) 

3) Other options

4) N/A (I did not want this changed)

 

 

 

 

[Psi]

We currently exist in Syndrome's reality. Everyone is so super that nobody is.

 

Granted, this mostly comes in to play when IOs and incarnates are factored in, but the fact that IOs are still available to anyone that is exemplaring (with the right forethought) means any level content can be and usually is trivial. This causes some scenarios where someone will roll a team focused character (Defender, Controller, etc) and join a Synapse TF, only to see an IOed out brute running through the missions faster than they can even travel there.

 

It's a horrible experience for anyone that's not prepared for it, but especially for new players that don't understand why they aren't being helpful; why they can't even keep up with whoever is moving at mach speed through these missions.

[InfamousBrad]

I voted for the "glow up" to existing enemy groups because there's one particular across-the-board buff to most enemy groups that seems like a no-brainer to me, and like it wouldn't be all that hard:

 

Within a faction, there should be a lot fewer enemy types "dropping out" as you level up. The Circle of Thorns would be more challenging, and more fun, if they continued to spawn Life Mages and Ruin Mages all the way to level 50. (Not to mention how much easier they get when Earth Thorn Casters drop out!) Paragon Police would be a lot more challenging if they continued to spawn SWAT Equalizers and SWAT Ghosts all the way to 50. It makes no sense at all that all level 41+ Crey mobs are power armor tanks.

[Noyjitat]

I dont want any more nerfs and I don't want any global npc improvements to make them harder unless its in the difficulty menu or heroic (hard mode) incarnate trials/tfs. <----- Something I would like to add. Defense means shit without resistance as most of the newer npcs have ways to totally ignore your defense as it is.

 

So in short Im all for optional changes but not globally added changes that update all the npcs and powers without the option to opt out. No nerfs to powers, no nerfs to set bonuses and no nerfs to incarnate powers.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Noyjitat

[HelaChain]

No nerfing period or forcing changes, needs to be optional or nothing at all....maybe a heroic mode that one can choose to have on or not and it would make the NPCs stronger or smarter as oppose to nerfing AT powers globally 

[Shiznaught]

Increasing rewards for sure. Right now, it's (pleasantly) easy to gain Incarnate materials, basically making Dark Astoria content obsolete... considering that's where the defense softcap falls off, I feel like in order to make it relevant again a boost to reward is in order. 

I feel like if it had inf rewards that rivaled solo AE Fire Farms, PI would become a ghost town.

[arkieboy72472]

The social and team aspect of the game is why i like it. Some of us are caretakers and don't get out much. Some of us have zero social life whether on purpose or accident. For some of us, this interaction is a large amount of our whole. I think that ANY difficulty added should be optional. Kinda like that one trial where everything is lvl 54(+3). You best be +3 or wait until you are. Trying it without that equals having a bad time. Likewise it is optional. Some of us like bashing bad guys and dying on occasion just as a way to unwind. I take out my frustration of life on council and roll alts for fun. That said, I WOULD be in favor in a slight overall buff to bad guys in the game, such as a small global resist or defense increase, like 5% or something. Something easy and small. Also maybe a buff for the obviously weak enemy groups also. I would leave the tough ones alone.

 

Also, in addition to making optional very tough arcs, task forces, and badges (think the hard way badge), I would NOT be opposed to making it where you have to unlock them somehow. This way you knowingly are playing them. Not only that, you earned your way in to access. This could also be used to add player volume to lesser used zones and areas. This could be at all levels and not just 50+. Lastly, rewards could be merits or just a badge. You at least want something to make it worth your while. Maybe even a costume piece or flair you can show off somehow. People like to chase swag.

[arkieboy72472]

32 minutes ago, Shiznaught said:

I feel like if it had inf rewards that rivaled solo AE Fire Farms, PI would become a ghost town.

Back before AE, PI basically was AE. For every mission team filling up for arc runs, you had 5 calls asking for bridges (pre exemp changes which i think was issue 16) or people for Battle Maiden farms (before 2XP system issue 16). AE basically cordoned off the farmers to their own areas. Farming is what it is and some like it. I tend to leave it alone. It serves a purpose. PI is what it is now and what it should be, casual lvl 40+ arcs and AV fights. AE is what it is now and what it should be also. Having perspective on how things used to be will better help you understand why they are how they are now.

[silver2019]

Not all of us can handle or want a Dark Souls experience when playing City of Heroes! Many of us love the game just the way it is now. Still if you must change things, here are 3 possible ways to introduce more difficulty without affecting the game as it stands:

 

1. Create some additional missions with higher level difficulties. Some of the Incarnate Trials are pretty challenging and require tight League organization to complete. A few more mid-level and Incarnate-level Trials would go a long way to satisfying the people who want more of a challenge.
2. Add some new Radio style missions that are a higher challenge, but don't require a League to run - for teams of up to 8 players. Maybe don't call them "Radio" missions, but some new category all of their own. Possibly something like the redo-able missions in Dark Astoria, except designed for a wider range of character levels. 
3. Create new Villain Groups to battle in enhanced, more challenging missions/arcs.

Summary:
Please please do not increase the difficulty of City of Heroes! Instead, add more challenging content for those who want that level of difficulty.

Edited January 20, 2020 by silver2019

[Elegy]

With the current difficulty there is a disconnect between what is intended and how the game actually plays. As it stands now, there is currently no content in the game that actually requires that the Tanker class be played whatsoever, as nothing deals enough damage. This includes enemies with specialized ways of dealing damage, such as the Hamidon. There is also no need for dedicated healing at all, such as the Pain and Empathy powersets, as nothing deals enough damage. Specifically with the SCoRE changes to Blasters, there is nothing really to stop a player from single-handedly steamrolling through all of the games content on a ranged DPS'er, as they have access now to an undue amount of survivability that eliminates any challenge to staying alive they might face. There is also very little in the way of enemies that have enough HP and damage output that actually requires a team. Both the Hamidon and Really Hard Way Tyrant are somewhat easily disposed of with merely 4 players, despite being challenges intended for very large groups of players. While certainly not everyone is going to be able to pull this off, the fact that it is even possible in terms of numbers suggests a large gap between how powerful player characters are expected to be and how powerful they currently are. In particular, the Destiny slot stands out as particularly broken as a mechanic, with the values for returns on virtually every destiny being much too high for literally every person in a team or league having them.

Additionally, economic and character progression changes have trivialized access to the power ceiling for any given character. Being able to obtain normal rewards in AE, incarnate xp from all content, gaining immense rewards simply by leveling via veteran levels, and having prices cut on all very rare/end game items at both merit vendors and on the auction house reduce the effort needed to bring a character to the point where the game is trivially easy. While the item economy is preferable to what was available on live, the ability to fully equip a character with tier 3 incarnates in every slot 2 hours after freshly rolling the character via AE farming is excessive.

A good difficulty change would force players to actually need to use mechanics found in other RPG style games, such as aggro management or focused targeting, while still allowing the level of build diversity that characters enjoy in CoH, without being able to fully max out your character shortly after rolling them.

[Foxfyre]

None of this is needed, at all.  City has the absolute most options in customizing your difficulty already.

The big difference here is that the original devs didn't have time to really flesh out a lot of incarnate content before the game closed, and the game was NEVER built around IO's. (Nor was it intended to be)

You want the game to be harder?  Turn the difficulty up.  Run a SO build instead of IO's.  Run more incarnate content. Run Ouro flashbacks with the difficulty settings turned on.

There's plenty of ways for you to make the game harder for yourself already.

[ziquapix]

On the survey, I didn't see the option most people joke about after +4x8 is too easy...everyone always says something like, "Time for +5x16!"

 

So, I'd like to see:

 

+5

 

and

 

x16

 

Seriously, I like thick mobs, and I like to herd up big ones, so I'm talking multipliers of 8.  x16, x24, x32...

Edited January 20, 2020 by ziquapix
Clarity