Control Oriented Scrapper? Am I crazy?

[Camel]

Was messing around in Hero Designer and had the idea of making a Scrapper as "Controller" like as possible and came up with this build. The idea seems ridiculous but I kept tweaking the build and actually got some decent numbers to boot! I'm slightly convinced this might just be crazy enough to work and even more intrigued to try it out in game. It's only a theory, but check it out and let me know what you think! Has anyone ever experimented with this?
 

Hero Plan by Hero Hero Designer 2.23
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Ice Melee
Secondary Power Set: Dark Armor
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Leviathan Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Frozen Fists -- SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg(A), SprScrStr-Dmg/Rchg(3), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), SprScrStr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprScrStr-Rchg/+Crit(7)
Level 1: Dark Embrace -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(25)
Level 2: Death Shroud -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(7), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(9), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(11)
Level 4: Murky Cloud -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(37)
Level 6: Build Up -- GssSynFr--Build%(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(11)
Level 8: Ice Patch -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 10: Obsidian Shield -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(37)
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(13), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 14: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(15), Rct-ResDam%(48)
Level 16: Dark Regeneration -- ThfofEss-+End%(A), ThfofEss-Acc/EndRdx/Heal(40), ThfofEss-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(43), TchoftheN-Acc/EndRdx/Heal/HP/Regen(46), TchoftheN-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(48), TchoftheN-Heal(48)
Level 18: Greater Ice Sword -- SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg(A), SprCrtStr-Dmg/Rchg(19), SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), SprCrtStr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23), SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23), SprCrtStr-Rchg/+50% Crit(25)
Level 20: Cloak of Darkness -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(21), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(21)
Level 22: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 24: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Freezing Touch -- UnbCns-Hold/Rchg(A), UnbCns-Acc/Hold/Rchg(27), UnbCns-Acc/Rchg(27), UnbCns-EndRdx/Hold(29), UnbCns-Dam%(29), Hct-Dam%(31)
Level 28: Cloak of Fear -- SphIns-Acc/ToHitDeb(A), SphIns-Acc/Rchg(31), SphIns-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(31), SphIns-ToHitDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(34), SphIns-%ToHit(36), UnsTrr-Stun%(36)
Level 30: Tough -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(39), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(40), GldArm-3defTpProc(40)
Level 32: Frozen Aura -- Arm-Dmg/Rchg(A), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Arm-Acc/Rchg(33), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Arm-Dam%(34), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(34)
Level 35: Oppressive Gloom -- Acc-I(A), Stp-KB%(36), RzzDzz-Immob%(37)
Level 38: Weave -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(39), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 41: Water Spout -- OvrFrc-Dam/KB(A), SprFrzBls-Rchg/ImmobProc(42), RzzDzz-Immob%(42), AbsAmz-ToHitDeb%(42), Ann-ResDeb%(43), AchHee-ResDeb%(43)
Level 44: Spirit Shark Jaws -- SprEnt-Acc/Hold(A), SprEnt-Rchg/AbsorbProc(45), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(45), NrnSht-Dam%(45), Apc-Dam%(46), GldJvl-Dam%(46)
Level 47: Hibernate -- Prv-Absorb%(A)
Level 49: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(50), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit 
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(17), Mrc-Rcvry+(17)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-EndMod/Acc(13), PrfShf-End%(15)
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve 
Level 0: Portal Jockey 
Level 0: Task Force Commander 
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion 
Level 50: Cardiac Core Paragon 
Level 50: Void Radial Final Judgement 
Level 50: Cognitive Core Flawless Interface 
Level 50: Ageless Core Epiphany 
Level 50: Control Radial Embodiment 
------------

 

 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2020 by cazden121

[Sovera]

It's not -crazy-, but scrappers are meant for damage and if you check the Controller boards they sigh at the game not really really requiring CC anymore, just force, brute force.

 

I had the same thought as you on a Rad/Atomic Blaster. Go in one spawn and use the T9 (which stuns), next spawn open with the mass hold so everything is choking at clawing at their throats. It worked fine. It also did a two thirds of the damage of a simple Fire Blaster who ignored all the faffing and just killed things dead.

[StrikerFox]

Made a mezzer MA/SR build in Mids' during live but never got around to creating him in game. He would of turned out pretty good. Can probably use an update with the newer IOs. Most of the winter IOs have a chance to mez component.

 

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[Vea]

Haven't got access to Mids right now so can't see the figures.

 

With that being said, Greater Ice Swords sucks, swap it with regular Ice Sword. Freezing Touch is amazing, I'd proc it out.

 

Going with the theme of control, ice patch fits, but generally the long cast time hardly ever makes it a worthwhile power. I've used it maybe twice since hitting 50, and that was in a +4*8 solo ITF.

 

I can't see the superior blistering cold proc to hold - this fires off frequently, and alongside freezing touch and your APP hold should hold down hard targets.

 

Overall, seems like a fun and survivable build. WM could be a contender for soft control with the amount of KUP in the attack chain.

[Redlynne]

First I was a Scrapper.

Then I was a Scraptroller.

Eventually I graduated to become a Pocket Scranktroller.

 

After that, it was just a matter of humiliating multiple (5) Rikti Magus at the same time ...

[gurugeorge]

On 1/20/2020 at 9:01 AM, Sovera said:

It's not -crazy-, but scrappers are meant for damage and if you check the Controller boards they sigh at the game not really really requiring CC anymore, just force, brute force.

 

All MMOs seem to go to the "damage is king" graveyard eventually.  While I'm loving that the old gal is up and running again, it's really not the same teamed gameplay as the game had originally, with actually quite well defined interactivity between the ATs needing and depending on each other.

 

Although I have to say that I see a lot of Control both from Doms and Controllers - it's actually necessary because nobody seems to have the patience for proper Tanking/herding/nuking these days.

 

I remember thinking at the time when CoV came out that the effect of a red side team was totally different from hero side, it was a "steamroller" effect - which perfectly suited the villainous trope.  At that time, hero side still had that interdependency.  But in the years I was gone (from about 2009 to 2012) the game went that way for all ATs, with everybody doing damage.  

 

It's still fun, and it's still CoH in that you get to exercise your creativity, and you still get to be in a flow state while chatting in casual teamed play.  But it's all a bit of a hurried, rushed affair now.

[ninja surprise]

On 2/22/2020 at 5:47 PM, gurugeorge said:

Although I have to say that I see a lot of Control both from Doms and Controllers - it's actually necessary because nobody seems to have the patience for proper Tanking/herding/nuking these days.

 

That's because waiting for a tank to herd is a waste of time. Tank needs to get out there and gather the mobs before the team arrives!

Plus, aggro caps are low so big herds aren't really viable.

[MunkiLord]

For Scrappers and Blasters I tend to find soft controls to be more effective for larger mobs. Holds are great if you need them for bosses(think Ice Blaster), but I find the slows and knockdowns much more effective on those ATs.

[gurugeorge]

43 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

That's because waiting for a tank to herd is a waste of time. Tank needs to get out there and gather the mobs before the team arrives!

Plus, aggro caps are low so big herds aren't really viable.

I dunno, tanks who go too far ahead are another kind of problem, I think.  That often leaves squishies behind to deal with troublesome mobs on their own, that kind of thing.  I've seen it happen lots of times.  Downtime comes from lots of sources, not just lack of speed in and of itself.

[biostem]

On 2/22/2020 at 7:47 PM, gurugeorge said:

All MMOs seem to go to the "damage is king" graveyard eventually.  While I'm loving that the old gal is up and running again, it's really not the same teamed gameplay as the game had originally, with actually quite well defined interactivity between the ATs needing and depending on each other.

 

Although I have to say that I see a lot of Control both from Doms and Controllers - it's actually necessary because nobody seems to have the patience for proper Tanking/herding/nuking these days.

 

I remember thinking at the time when CoV came out that the effect of a red side team was totally different from hero side, it was a "steamroller" effect - which perfectly suited the villainous trope.  At that time, hero side still had that interdependency.  But in the years I was gone (from about 2009 to 2012) the game went that way for all ATs, with everybody doing damage.  

 

It's still fun, and it's still CoH in that you get to exercise your creativity, and you still get to be in a flow state while chatting in casual teamed play.  But it's all a bit of a hurried, rushed affair now.

It's the like old adage;  A dead enemy can't kill you.  It's great and all to be able to keep an enemy locked down, but it's even better to take their piece off the gameboard and move onto the next group.

 

I chalk a lot of this movement up to how binary the hold system is;  Perhaps if mez effects worked on a sliding scale from doing nothing to being completely locked down, then such powers would be more useful...

[gurugeorge]

8 hours ago, biostem said:

It's the like old adage;  A dead enemy can't kill you.  It's great and all to be able to keep an enemy locked down, but it's even better to take their piece off the gameboard and move onto the next group.

 

I chalk a lot of this movement up to how binary the hold system is;  Perhaps if mez effects worked on a sliding scale from doing nothing to being completely locked down, then such powers would be more useful...

This is true in the abstract, but is it fun?  You can mow down lots of grey mobs like this - mow them down, move on to the next.  They can't kill you.  But it's not fun (well, for a few it is, but not for most, I'll wager).  Why?  Because they can't kill you, because they're too weak to do anything to you and there's no risk involved (plus psychologically, they're grey, not purple 🙂).  Same syndrome as it was with God Mode in single player games.  It sounds like just the ticket, but you find it kills all your interest in a game once you cross that barrier.

I think generally people have the most fun playing these games when they are "in the pocket" in terms of a balance between there being some actual danger of losing, and coming out the victor.  The best fights are where everyone has comes out the other end with some chunk of their health taken away (as a symbol of just how much danger they were in), when they know they could have lost.

It's for the devs to find that balance, but find it they must.  Once "damage is king" the game is basically dead.

[biostem]

1 hour ago, gurugeorge said:

I think generally people have the most fun playing these games when they are "in the pocket" in terms of a balance between there being some actual danger of losing, and coming out the victor.  The best fights are where everyone has comes out the other end with some chunk of their health taken away (as a symbol of just how much danger they were in), when they know they could have lost.

It's for the devs to find that balance, but find it they must.  Once "damage is king" the game is basically dead.

Well, I'd wager that a good chunk of people's satisfaction is tied to the reward one gets from defeating enemies.  It's cool and all to see an enemy struggling against your holds/mezzes, but they yield no rewards until defeated.  Similarly, you can mow down all those grey-con enemies with little to no risk to yourself, but again you get very little from doing so.  I wholeheartedly agree that a good balance is what's called for, being "in the pocket" as you say.  The difference here is that pretty much anyone can deal damage whereas content gets to a point where the current mez system is nearly useless or actually a hindrance to defeating the enemies and getting those sweet eckspeez, hence why I mentioned the "sliding scale" mez system...

[gurugeorge]

8 hours ago, biostem said:

Well, I'd wager that a good chunk of people's satisfaction is tied to the reward one gets from defeating enemies.  It's cool and all to see an enemy struggling against your holds/mezzes, but they yield no rewards until defeated.  Similarly, you can mow down all those grey-con enemies with little to no risk to yourself, but again you get very little from doing so.  I wholeheartedly agree that a good balance is what's called for, being "in the pocket" as you say.  The difference here is that pretty much anyone can deal damage whereas content gets to a point where the current mez system is nearly useless or actually a hindrance to defeating the enemies and getting those sweet eckspeez, hence why I mentioned the "sliding scale" mez system...

"Everyone can deal damage" - well yeah, that's what I mean by "damage is king."  When everyone in a group is a self-contained damage dealer, pretty much, that's it, game over.  

 

I agree that they should look into the mez system.  Also, since most complaints about damage dealing come from soloers, the best way to compensate for that is to have people doing more damage when they're playing solo, regardless of AT (and something like that exists for Defenders IIRC).  But as with all things, it's about ROI, and any tweak takes time and effort, so I suppose devs have to weigh that up.

[Xandyr]

I have (the only) level 50 DA/MA tank, and it plays like a tanktroller. So I understand what you're going for. I can literally jump into a mob, hit Taunt, and do nothing. DA's toggles keep mobs mezzed, disoriented, feared,etc etc. Add in procs, and well, you're a troller with a ton more health,defenses,resists, and damage. Quite fun actually.  

Good luck!

[Camel]

2 hours ago, Xandyr said:

I have (the only) level 50 DA/MA tank, and it plays like a tanktroller. So I understand what you're going for. I can literally jump into a mob, hit Taunt, and do nothing. DA's toggles keep mobs mezzed, disoriented, feared,etc etc. Add in procs, and well, you're a troller with a ton more health,defenses,resists, and damage. Quite fun actually.  

Good luck!

More of a theory-craft as opposed to something I was going to make on Homecoming. I did make it on the test servers and was pretty surprised! It did pretty stellar damage and was able to handle mobs at +4x8. I wasn’t able to get Leviathan Mastery when I initially made it, so I went with Blaze instead. Water Spout was where a lot of my control (I think) was going to come from, and even without it, mobs were pretty debuffed/controlled.

[Xandyr]

Oh....waterspout with a KB->KD IO...nice.

[hejtmane]

It was better pre-ed back in I3 for dark armor control when you had a mag 3 cloak of fear and you could lock up lieutenants as while oh those were fun days for a short time because it last a short time because da sucked before i3 no stacking armors lol

[hejtmane]

9 hours ago, gurugeorge said:

"Everyone can deal damage" - well yeah, that's what I mean by "damage is king."  When everyone in a group is a self-contained damage dealer, pretty much, that's it, game over.  

 

I agree that they should look into the mez system.  Also, since most complaints about damage dealing come from soloers, the best way to compensate for that is to have people doing more damage when they're playing solo, regardless of AT (and something like that exists for Defenders IIRC).  But as with all things, it's about ROI, and any tweak takes time and effort, so I suppose devs have to weigh that up.

This is nothing new in city of heroes back in i2 it was all about damage hell survivor ability was even better for some sets than with IO's it was down right dumb. You know the no xp from mobs and portal was because of super strength tankers. Litterally they would do the Circle of Thorns missions sit outside the range of not damaging the portal sit with footstomp on auto go watch tv, eat a sandwich and everyone in the group would sit at the door and rack up xp or the classic dumpster diving one tank to heard and a blaster and a 6 slotted t9 kill 100+ mobs rinse repeat.

 

The list goes on and on that was all pre-ed

Edited February 26, 2020 by hejtmane