Fixing Martial Arts

[Aracknight]

Can't say I'd be sad if Storm Kick got the same defense bonus Tanks got (Or Parry in Broadsword, for a direct scrapper analogue).  I'd also not mind it if they turned Storm Kick into a small cone that could hit, lets say up to 3 mobs at once if you line it up just so (also like Slice in Broadsword).

 

I really don't think Martial Arts is broken, not since Cobra Strike got it's damage put in anyway.  But a tweak to make it a little more aoe-y or some mitigation wouldn't suck.  The soft controls are cool, and the damage is "okay" (we all want more damage, just admit it).

[ShardWarrior]

12 minutes ago, NNDeepdish said:

You'd think that but clearly it indeed is difficult to understand.

Yes, the person is obviously looking for more AoE. Your original comment attempts to induce the expectation that he wants the set to be "full of AoE."

 

I have no idea what your definition of "full of AoE" is, but it's your own opinion and was never expressed or defined by the individual you singled out.

If you would like to have pissing contests over what words mean, I am happy to do that.  However, I would suggest it be take to PMs instead of further derailing the thread.

[ZacKing]

51 minutes ago, skoryy said:

The thing is, MA was fixed.  It's just that the fix was Street Justice.

 

I think the bigger issue is that the older powersets could not only use a rework, but also some gimmicks like combos, forms, or such.  But I'm not sure how popular that would actually be.

Yeah no, gimmicks don't necessarily make the set better.  Some of them are total stinkers.  MA is ok as is.  Only slight change I would make is convert storm kick to a cone.

[SeraphimKensai]

Since there's misconceptions about what I suggested for MA, let me reiterate my thought:

 

I said the set lacks AoE options, it's not completely devoid of AoE (unless you're a stalker). I suggested adding an pbaoe attack, and what I would replace honestly would be Crane Kick, turning it into Hurricane Kick (think Street Fighter Ryu/Ken) allowing it to kick everyone around it up to 3 times and on the third kick do the knockback that crane kick had.

[Bossk_Hogg]

56 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Yeah no, gimmicks don't necessarily make the set better.  Some of them are total stinkers.  MA is ok as is.  Only slight change I would make is convert storm kick to a cone.

Why Storm Kick? Its the best single target damage in the set. Thunder Kick is the one that's pointless.

[Galaxy Brain]

Just saying, the combo system in StJ is barely something you need to think about. Attacks build up your bigger attacks, but you can still let your big attacks rip asap for good damage.

[Williwaw]

I just wish Eagle's Claw did more damage (even though I know that'd increase its recharge).  How much more damage?  This much more damage.

 

[WindDemon21]

5 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

MA is a single target set.  A single cone doesn't make sense, the two sets you mention are different from MA such as the fact BS and Katana have a +def attack while MA has soft control in stuns and knock back/down.

Except Ma does have dragon's tail, so it's not just a single target set >_>. No reason a cone for Crane kick woudln't make sense. Whether they'd do it or not is one thing, but that's just stupid to say it doesn't make sense.

 

5 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

It is working as intended, it is an AoE.  Has knockdown from what I remember so its not really a high damage attack as it is soft control.

Can it use a buff?  Sure but it is not broken.  Something to consider is hitbox size, MM bump the me around and a guy mentioned in a farm that smaller characters make it easier to kill; makes sense as I have seen baddies run 180 degrees around me to attack.

Except it's not, and i've proven that it's radius is bugged to be smaller than it should be. At 6ft instead of 8ft (it could be 5 ft even but we know it's at least 6ft or less) It's area is 113.097ft, versus 201.062ft, meaning that it's almost half of the area it's supposed to cover.

 

5 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

Nearly all melee attacks are capped at 5 and 10, 16 steps on the toes of squishes who special in AoE destruction.

Except those attacks have a 15ft or larger radius, and also are ranged so they don't have to risk going into melee to use them.

 

5 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

Well, 16 might mean nothing when IOed out.  I got a build from a guy that turns Foot Stomp from 20 seconds to 4...building my own to see  😁

This was more being said because if the damage was increased to match it's activation time (which should be don regardless) it wouldn't make as much sense for it to recharge in 12 seconds. 16 vs 12 seconds still makes a noticeable difference, and remember as well that the game is balanced around SOs, but if you want it's damage to be proper, and still have that 12s recharge I wouldn't complain, just as long as it's damage is not "less than it should be" for a 2.53s animation time, just because it has a shorter recharge.

 

5 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

And that's why you play a blaster or brute.  Steps on their inherent and you are asking for a combo build up set which MA is not and requires a complete over haul.

Except it's not a combo set up, it's just a "do more damage more accurately the more you attack" auto power. similar to kinetic melee's power siphon, only it wouldn't debuff the enemy's damage, and it's max damage would be lower than power siphon since it would be auto.

[Haijinx]

I will point out that damage is not generally adjusted for activation time either. 

 

Though some limited changes to this and actual animations have happened to help sets that were seen as underperforming.  

 

This includes WM and MA.  

 

Eagles Claw has already been "fixed" more than once. First the animation was shaved, then the extra crit buffing other attacks.

 

For IO builds recharge matters less and less.  Which helps something like SJ.  Crushing Uppercut is a great power, but on SOs it wouldn't be nearly as good.  

 

With perma hasten, its up more than you need it.

 

So even a 20 second Eagles Claw would be NBD foe IO builds.  

 

 

 

 

[ZacKing]

2 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Why Storm Kick? Its the best single target damage in the set. Thunder Kick is the one that's pointless.

Why make Storm Kick a cone?  Haven't seen the animation for it I guess...

[Darkir]

4 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

I will say I personally dislike "combos," on any of the archetypes they've appeared. The only set where I think it works in an interesting way is Nature Affinity, where you can mostly ignore it. That's not to say those sets are bad, I'd just prefer existing sets not get those features. That's just my opinion though.

 

The teleport-attack in Savage Assault on the other hand I personally really, really enjoy. It makes Savage Assault feel reactive and like there is no break in the action. For all its flipping around and leaping into the air Martial Arts (and also the Super Reflexes set) feel tied to one spot. To me, it feels incongruous with comic books, where in most of the panels the character is performing flying kicks and punches with forward momentum. But again that may just be me. 

 

 

I agree. I also don't like combos in sets generally as they complicate things and you don't get enough benefit out of it to manage it appropriately. I would say water blast is another one where you can ignore the combo mechanic and everything works just fine.

[Haijinx]

13 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Why make Storm Kick a cone?  Haven't seen the animation for it I guess...

People have suggested it forever, because the animation involves a spinning kick.

 

Its animation is much faster than most Melee cones though. 

 

 

[Bossk_Hogg]

25 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Why make Storm Kick a cone?  Haven't seen the animation for it I guess...

I have, seeing as its my scrapper's most used attack. It makes just as much sense as a single target attack. Moreover, the secondary animation straight up doesnt work as an AE.

 

Its the best DPS in the set, there's no good reason to turn it into a shit DPA 30 degree cone or whatever nonsense it would end up as. You don't completely redesign something that works. Again, change Thunder Kick, that's the one that sucks. 

[oedipus_tex]

Where did the 1.07 second animation for the Dominator Martial Assault power Spinning Kick come from? I assumed it was a Martial Arts power but I don't see a matching animation for it.

 

Anyway, the Dominator version of Martial Arts (ish), Martial Assault, has two PBAoEs. Dragon's Tail and Spinning Kick. So if they ever decide to convert a power in MA to an AoE there's an animation out there that fits naturally.

[Haijinx]

17 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

I have, seeing as its my scrapper's most used attack. It makes just as much sense as a single target attack. Moreover, the secondary animation straight up doesnt work as an AE.

 

Its the best DPS in the set, there's no good reason to turn it into a shit DPA 30 degree cone or whatever nonsense it would end up as. You don't completely redesign something that works. Again, change Thunder Kick, that's the one that sucks. 

Interestingly a lot of sets basically have to use their T1s to make a chain, and TK has the same stats as those T1s.

 

It just is weak compared to all of MAs good ST attacks.  

 

 

 

 

[Uun]

46 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

Where did the 1.07 second animation for the Dominator Martial Assault power Spinning Kick come from? I assumed it was a Martial Arts power but I don't see a matching animation for it.

 

Anyway, the Dominator version of Martial Arts (ish), Martial Assault, has two PBAoEs. Dragon's Tail and Spinning Kick. So if they ever decide to convert a power in MA to an AoE there's an animation out there that fits naturally.

I thought the animation for Spinning Kick was Storm Kick's. It's an interesting power - a non-targeted cone. It hits whatever is in front of you.

[Leogunner]

Ok so people like the idea of a ranged melee teleport.  Who would have thought?

 

As for the other ideas posted so far, I like reading new and outside-the-box ideas.  Personally speaking though, I don't aim to boost damage (directly or indirectly) unless the set is known for lack of damage.  I've always known MA to be a middle-of-the-road DPS-wise set.  It doesn't excel at anything (there's usually always a set better than it at things) but it's never the worst.  It's got a little of everything for everyone.  Some strong KB to make those kicks look painful, mobility hampering skills for the runners, CC for keeping you alive and for the tanks an ability to stack defense.

 

A lot of people are talking about combo mechanics for the set which put a lot of people off.  Mechanics like that don't have to be literal combos like Dual Blades or combo points like Street Justice.  Things like Radiation Melee's mechanics technically could be considered a combo mechanic or heck, the Stalker Assassin's Focus mechanic is basically SJ's combo point system but limited to 1 power as a spender.  There's also concepts like power interactions (kind of like using CAK on a knocked down foe...much easier to land if the foe is KB'ed since they stay down a little longer depending on ragdoll).

 

You can get creative...like if you used the Contamination mechanic from Rad melee and called it "Chi Strike".  Striking with Martial Arts attacks has a chance to cut off a target's flow of Chi, lowering their recovery and increase the endurance cost of all their abilities (a reverse END discount...an END tax, so to speak).  If you strike foes whose chi is blocked, you gain a stacking END discount (stacked up to 3) and grant END to all allies within a 15ft radius.

 

Technically not a combo, technically nothing meta-breaking but it could be something that would open up builds (Martial Arts + Dark Armor) with alternate slotting.

 

You could also come up with suggestions for more damage but you're rubbing against those that think the damage of MA is fine.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Leogunner

[oedipus_tex]

Semi off topic, but perhaps not, I wonder how some of the animations in Staff Melee would look without a staff, paired with the right particle effects. It may not match up great with Martial Arts classic, but it may be enough to come up with some really over the top Street Fighter 2 type stuff for a new set (which I love and would play the heck out of).

Edited January 23, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Redlynne]

12 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

Give me a reason to take Thunder Kick without feeling like I'm having to sacrifice effectiveness. That's all I ask, really.

Already done ... LINK.

 

12 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Eagle Claw straight up needs some more damage though.

Could add "gimmick combo" damage to Eagle's Claw.

If $Target is already Stunned or Immobilized then Eagle's Claw does additional damage (ala Impact mechanics used in Gravity Control) and adds +1 MAG Stun for 4 seconds (100% chance).  That wouldn't seem to be too big of an ask and would make for an interesting way to combo Eagle's Claw with Thunder Kick, Cobra Strike and Crippling Axe Kick without making an explicit combo system to use.  More like an "if you've done your set up, Eagle's Claw does extra" kind of thing.

 

  

8 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

No reason a cone for Crane kick woudln't make sense.

Counter-proposal.

Give Crane Kick the "Propel" (of out Gravity Control) treatment.

 

Basically keep Crane Kick as a single target attack, but have it do an extra (small radius!) AoE Knockdown around the $Target that you hit.  So the Crane Kick does KnockBACK to the $Target you hit and KnockDOWN to whatever was clustered in close around the $Target that you hit.  Doesn't do anything to change the damage production, but does slightly increase the soft control the power offers.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Redlynne

[Lazarillo]

4 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Already done ... LINK.

Interesting.  They're killing Bruising, though, so not sure if that still works the same way.  I wonder if the duration on the EC buff would also apply on Scrappers' critical hit bonus, though.  Could be kinda crazy if so.

 

...it'd make me happy, at least.

[Redlynne]

2 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

Interesting.  They're killing Bruising, though, so not sure if that still works the same way.

You'll notice that my analysis of the Tanker buff from Eagle's Claw doesn't incorporate Bruising into it, so the info I was provided was Bruising agnostic on those terms.  I did however specifically design my attack chains so as to maximize opportunities for Bruising however, because there are times when Thunder Kick would miss or you'd otherwise want to switch $Target(s) and would need to use Thunder Kick more quickly so as to get Bruising back into the mix ... but that's a different consideration outside of working out how to gain maximal advantage out of the damage buff duration that Tankers get out of Eagle's Claw.

 

2 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

I wonder if the duration on the EC buff would also apply on Scrappers' critical hit bonus, though.  Could be kinda crazy if so.

...it'd make me happy, at least.

The buffing from Eagle's Claw for Tankers is QUITE different from the buffing you get on Scrappers.  The main difference is that the buff on Tankers has a sustained duration that will let you animate more than one attack within it (see my post for the analysis of why this is so and the "shape" of that buffing duration and how to best leverage/exploit that).  On Scrappers, the duration of the critical hit chance buff is so short that you can ONLY have it apply to a single following attack, not multiples, and that single following attack basically needs to be queued up before Eagle's Claw finishes animating or you'll miss the window for the critical chance buff (the duration you've got to work with is like ~0.5s which is bad for human reaction speeds when working through network lag/latency and server lag/latency combined).

 

So the key thing is that when you can buff more than one power after Eagle's Claw, the combination of Thunder Kick+Storm Kick delivers more damage to a single target than any of the alternatives, and you can STILL buff another attack(!) beyond just those two on a Tanker.  On a Scrapper though it's just a single attack after Eagle's Claw, so you simply don't have the opportunity to stretch the critical hit buff to Thunder Kick+Storm Kick plus something else and the Bits o' Cleverness™ you can do on a Tanker just simply isn't available on a Scrapper.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Redlynne

[WindDemon21]

7 hours ago, Haijinx said:

I will point out that damage is not generally adjusted for activation time either. 

 

Though some limited changes to this and actual animations have happened to help sets that were seen as underperforming.  

 

This includes WM and MA.  

 

Eagles Claw has already been "fixed" more than once. First the animation was shaved, then the extra crit buffing other attacks.

 

For IO builds recharge matters less and less.  Which helps something like SJ.  Crushing Uppercut is a great power, but on SOs it wouldn't be nearly as good.  

 

With perma hasten, its up more than you need it.

 

So even a 20 second Eagles Claw would be NBD foe IO builds.  

 

 

 

 

Just because it has been "fixed" (quotes to emphasize that it is in fact, still not fixed), doesn't mean that it's damage is anywhere near where it should be at for how long the animation is. Flat out, the damage needs to be increased to match the animation time. It's DPA is only at 64.82 base, where most any other sets are around 100. Meaning it needs almost a 50% boost in damage which mean's it's hugely undercut. Now that needs done asap regardless, but of course with that rech/end wouldn't make sense, which is why they would be turned up to at least 16 seconds to compensate. And not everyone builds for super recharge, so you can't say it's negligible, and it does still make a difference regardless.

 

It's supposed to be the "big" finisher attack that you also have to wait all the way till tier 9 to get, and it is literally the worst DPA in the set and barely even more damage than 3 other attacks in the set as well. Pretty sure of any melee attack as well besides ice melee (which needs some small damage/animation tweaks as well for FF/GIS ).

Edited January 23, 2020 by WindDemon21
More to say

[Haijinx]

38 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Just because it has been "fixed" (quotes to emphasize that it is in fact, still not fixed), doesn't mean that it's damage is anywhere near where it should be at for how long the animation is. Flat out, the damage needs to be increased to match the animation time. It's DPA is only at 64.82 base, where most any other sets are around 100. Meaning it needs almost a 50% boost in damage which mean's it's hugely undercut. Now that needs done asap regardless, but of course with that rech/end wouldn't make sense, which is why they would be turned up to at least 16 seconds to compensate. And not everyone builds for super recharge, so you can't say it's negligible, and it does still make a difference regardless.

 

It's supposed to be the "big" finisher attack that you also have to wait all the way till tier 9 to get, and it is literally the worst DPA in the set and barely even more damage than 3 other attacks in the set as well. Pretty sure of any melee attack as well besides ice melee (which needs some small damage/animation tweaks as well for FF/GIS ).

Except again, DPA was never a major balance consideration.  

 

They hadn't even considered it at all until the game was fairly mature.  

 

Singling out Eagle's claw for a DPA based rebalance over all the other sets out there?  

 

You also can't just look at T9s in isolation.  For example look at T2s, MA has one of the best DPA T2s there is.  Should this get lowered to be closer to other sets? 

 

MA isn't the worst set for DPA overall, far from it.  

Edited January 23, 2020 by Haijinx

[WindDemon21]

4 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Except again, DPA was never a major balance consideration.  

 

They hadn't even considered it at all until the game was fairly mature.  

 

Singling out Eagle's claw for a DPA based rebalance over all the other sets out there?  

 

You also can't just look at T9s in isolation.  For example look at T2s, MA has one of the best DPA T2s there is.  Should this get lowered to be closer to other sets? 

 

MA isn't the worst set for DPA overall, far from it.  

To an extent yes. Can it always be easily quantified by straight exact damage numbers for all sets, no. But the fact remains that it's damage is so bad in comparison it's cringeworthy to use and that shouldn't be the case. So maybe considering everything maybe not a 50% buff to damage to make it in line *exactly* with other sets, but at the very least a 25% or more reasonably 33% increase in damage should be done to make it worth actually using with that animation time.

[Megajoule]

Part of the issue, IMO, is that in these days of IOs and Incarnates and massive AoE spam, by the time your Big Wind-Up Attack actually lands, your target and half or all of the spawn are already dead.  (This is hardly exclusive to MA, of course.)