Can we have Regen, please?

[Yellowjacket]

I know everyone will tell me to just play Willpower or roll a Brute but it's just not the same. The Claws/Regen Brute I made on test was super fun without being OP  steamrolling x8/+4 and I'd love to trade damage for the extra Tanker HP. All my powers fit on 2 trays which was refreshing.

 

I feel like with the ubiquity of buffs and debuffs in the endgame, Regen has the potential to be the most survivable tank set. Is there some game-breaking reason we haven't been given Regen as Tankers? The numbers could largely be ported over from Brute as-is and be just fine for the few of us of us who want it.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Yellowjacket

[SinergyX]

My only gues would be alpha, i dont remember much from regen brutes on original COV apart they had issues taking alpha.

 

However, tank always has a few notches more defense/resist/stuff then brute, cranking up the regen of regen (lol) even more might be a bit off? Though i assume EA could just as well be at the tanker side (brute going 13 atm, while tank 11).

 

But overal, i doubt Regen is even that popular that even if tank would get it, people would use it (i believe it was the most nerfed set out there, sad the sentinal one is actualy nice).

Edited February 1, 2020 by SinergyX

[drbuzzard]

If they translated over the sentinel version, it might be nice. Otherwise, I'd not bother with it and just do willpower. 

[Yellowjacket]

Brutes were meant to main tank on villain side and they got Regen so the alpha argument falls flat. In-set you have MoG and to a lesser extent IH to help with alpha (and technically the revive is for this purpose also). Plus there's plenty of pool powers and outside buffs to help a Regen with alpha these days. 

[Haijinx]

With tanker numbers might be pretty awesome with a full tilt IO build.  

 

On SOs?  Ouch.  Unless you have support. 

 

With support though? Should be good.  FF defender plus Regen?  Etc. 

 

 

 

[HelenCarnate]

Yea lower levels with SOs would really hurt.  IOs at incarnate level, they should be fine.  Just the road getting there would be rough without PLing or twinking them out as you go.

[Yellowjacket]

The Sentinel version would be fun, but would need a bit of testing for Tankers, where resources could be spent elsewhere. I wonder if they have it in mind to test the Sentinel flavor with the other ATs eventually.

 

I would think the Brute version could be added in the meantime without much trouble or testing at all.

[Heraclea]

My experience is that Regen works wonderfully at lower/exemp levels and gets painful the closer you get to 50.  At those levels its strengths - sustain and indifference to damage types - outweigh its weaknesses, and its self-heals and regen tools work well enough to pass.  There's way too much debuff being thrown around in the late game to favor an armor set with little resistance to them.  -Recharge is especially bad. 

 

I have a fire/regen scrapper slotted with generics and handmedowns whose purpose is to farm Synapse and similar lower level content.  Once you get past Numina the character struggles.   She has no taunt aura so she is equipped with Recall and all the teleports.  I did not bother taking Tough and Weave on the character: from where she starts from on resistance and defense they'd basically be lipstick on a pig, and having them would negate her reason for being, which is quick recovery and only one toggle chewing on her blue bar.   She actually fares fairly well in the Rularuu TFs among 40+ content, because damage is damage to her, she has no taunt aura, and she runs Afterburner. 

 

Even adjusting all of her numbers up proportionally to tanker levels, I can't see how it would work without extensive modification. 

[Sir Myshkin]

Have a Regen Scrapper that has absolutely no issue in pretty much any content I've thrown it at. Even took on Crimson Prototype, which is an AV with a design that specifically neuters Regen with stacking -MaxHP debuffs. I did die, but only because we got down to the point where I only had 200 HP after a very long haul. It's not impossible for Regen to hold up to a lot of the content in this game if you build appropriately. It does take unifying additional survival tools to maximize its potential in the 50+ content.

[Heraclea]

10 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

It's not impossible for Regen to hold up to a lot of the content in this game if you build appropriately. It does take unifying additional survival tools to maximize its potential in the 50+ content.

"If you build appropriately."  "Additional survival tools."

 

There's the problem right there.  Yes, you can build a quite tough Regen character, in the same way that you can build a quite tough blaster or defender.  But most other armor sets get to start a lot closer to the finish line. 

[Call Me Awesome]

2 hours ago, Heraclea said:

"If you build appropriately."  "Additional survival tools."

 

There's the problem right there.  Yes, you can build a quite tough Regen character, in the same way that you can build a quite tough blaster or defender.  But most other armor sets get to start a lot closer to the finish line. 

Agreed there.  I've played Regen to 50 several times both on Live and here.  Without additional help it tends to drop quickly in the later levels.  On Live pre-IO I had a Spine/Regen and Broadsword/Regen scrappers.  With the Spine I went through a ton of purples staying alive in tough missions while the Broadsword was better thanks to Parry.

 

Here on HC I have a Fire/Regen Stalker at 50 who's fairly capable, but I built for soft capped S/L defenses.  Frankly as a Tanker primary I wouldn't play Regen, it would be too squishy to take alpha strikes as it stands now.  A tough alpha strike is fully capable of killing an unarmored tanker in a couple seconds... possibly even faster than you can hit Dull Pain or Reconstruction.  The problem with Regen is that it's unarmored and has no way to mitigate incoming damage other than healing it.  When incoming damage exceeds Regen capacity you're headed to the floor.

[Haijinx]

6 hours ago, Heraclea said:

"If you build appropriately."  "Additional survival tools."

 

There's the problem right there.  Yes, you can build a quite tough Regen character, in the same way that you can build a quite tough blaster or defender.  But most other armor sets get to start a lot closer to the finish line. 

This is true, but the regen will have some interesting advantages when built up that would be unique. 

 

Fast recharge Self heal + perm max hp heal, massive regen click , etc.

 

The downside though is as you say its a bigger hill to climb. 

[Haijinx]

In that no one else can build the kind regen plus self healing a regen gets on SOs, but the regen might be able to build to softcap some defenses and get high s/l resist.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Haijinx

[Sir Myshkin]

8 hours ago, Heraclea said:

"If you build appropriately."  "Additional survival tools."

 

There's the problem right there.  Yes, you can build a quite tough Regen character, in the same way that you can build a quite tough blaster or defender.  But most other armor sets get to start a lot closer to the finish line. 

I’m talking casual things that every set is already taking advantage of: Tough, Weave, IO’s, stuff of that nature. One doesn’t have to build abnormally or otherwise uniquely specific just for Regen.

 

Yes some sets innately survive specific circumstances better in say an SO environment, or exclusively on their own without power pools, but every set, in a vacuum of itself, has inherent weaknesses we, as players, build to improve.

 

My own Regen, since I can only speak for myself, has only 33% S/L/Melee Def and ~50% S/L resists among other meandering values, and has Shadow Meld as an additional ability beyond Tough/Weave. I have absolutely zero issue “tanking” and soloing +4/x8 content in this game. If I’d wanted to I could’ve shifted to 45% S/L Def at the cost of some proc choices I made instead.

 

The core difference in survival is the willingness of the player to pay attention, and that’s part of why I personally think so few people like playing Regen. It can be a far more challenging/frustrating set to attune to.

[Brutal Justice]

All I want is a regen tank.  Give it to me just like the brutes have just with tanker numbers.  

[Sarrate]

37 minutes ago, Mr.Sinister said:

All I want is a regen tank.  Give it to me just like the brutes have just with tanker numbers.  

Just pointing out that Tanker numbers would affect the following:

 

1) Resilience (9.38% -> 12.5% resistance)

2) Moment of Glory (71.3% -> 95% defense & resistance)

3) Lower regeneration cap (3,000% for Scrappers/Stalkers, 2,500% for Brutes/Tankers) - not that this matters, with 3 slotted Health, Fast Healing, Integration, and Instant Healing, you're still only at ~1560% regen

 

Those are the only powers that'd change in numbers. Due to having more health as a Tanker, you'd have stronger heals and regenerate more hp/sec, though.

[Snarky]

As has been pointed out this is horrid on a Tank. Regen mechanics only work if you get a breather. Being able to step away for 5-10 seconds resets your entire defensive structure. You cannot do this on a Tank and your team will suffer. 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Snarky

[Snarky]

On 1/31/2020 at 5:07 PM, Yellowjacket said:

Brutes were meant to main tank on villain side and they got Regen so the alpha argument falls flat. In-set you have MoG and to a lesser extent IH to help with alpha (and technically the revive is for this purpose also). Plus there's plenty of pool powers and outside buffs to help a Regen with alpha these days. 

Originally Brutes were designed as Redside Scrappers. Sooooo No

 

Believe it ir not the Devs thought MMs in Bodyguard mode would be Redside Tanks

 

The players immediately ghetto Tanked with Brutes for speed and the game evolved

 

But the argument stands. Regen on Brutes was not a nod to Regens ability to withstand an Alpha and hold agro.

 

Also a good example of why taking the Devs actions as “The Word of How Things Should Be” is not a great idea

 

We all know Regen for Tanking is a iffy idea at best in perfect situations. Try rolling  ANY Regen with best i/O build and farming with it. At best you will struggle and get through. The increase in health on a Tank will help Regen but not enough to solve the problem it faces in trying to withstand constant pressure

Edited February 3, 2020 by Snarky

[VV]

On 1/31/2020 at 2:30 PM, Yellowjacket said:

I feel like with the ubiquity of buffs and debuffs in the endgame, Regen has the potential to be the most survivable tank set. Is there some game-breaking reason we haven't been given Regen as Tankers?

I think you answered your question right there. With all the Def/Res IO set bonuses, and Incarnates, and Pool Powers, you could almost certainly get a ridiculously OP Regen/ tank that basically couldn't be killed.

 

I know a lot of people mentioned alphas, but I'm not convinced that would be a problem. For most mobs, even at 4x8 the alpha hardly bothers my tricked out controller, it shouldn't be a problem for a tricked out regen tanker. When going in on a hard target, pop a few Insp to ward off the alpha, then the rest would be cake.

 

Sure, an SO'ed Regen tanker would probably underperform a SO'ed anything else tanker, but with both equally tricked out, it seems like the Regen will come out on top.

[Brutal Justice]

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/2065-a-guide-to-health-amp-regeneration-and-how-they-work/

 

if you read this guide you’ll see that at a certain point adding +hp has a much greater effect than adding more regen.  The tanks base hp pool will help immensely.  

 

My brute doesn’t have an issue taking an alpha with just his base hp.  It’s really not much different from willpower in how it takes an alpha.  It is different in how it handles after the alpha.  

 

You absorb the alpha and pop reconstruction.  Recovering from the alpha.  Often times your base regen will sustain you through the rest of that fight.  Reconstruction is probably recharged by the time you get to the next mob.  If it’s not, regen has a lot more tools.  You can hit dull pain after the next alpha, which will carry you for a long time with the extra 1k hp.  You can MoG and have no alpha.  You can hit IH and just roll through the alpha.  It’s about timing rather than set and forget.  

 

Stalkers and scrappers have much lower hp pools so they are much less capable of that alpha.  Tanks are a different beast.  I farmed the sig arc at lvl 40 for fake nems with my regen brute, at x8 he did just fine with zero IOs.   My regen stalker is much more susceptible to spike damage because of the low hp.  Regen is active and capable.  Give it to me on a tank and stand back.  

[Yellowjacket]

2 hours ago, Snarky said:

Try rolling  ANY Regen with best i/O build and farming with it. At best you will struggle and get through.

As I said I did try it on beta with a Claws/Regen Brute and it worked swimmingly. I didn't even use incarnates.

[Snarky]

Nice info Sinister. So it does work well as long as you are willing to work the gears like a Goblin snorting Superadine lol

 

i am used to invulnerability. Which performed well for me for years on SOs and now... fughedaboutit. No literally don’t even think about it.  Would almost respec out of Dull Pain because i never use it.  Except for low level stuff. If anything does get through. MoM trial or Hami then Dull Pain may dull it but gou are still dying. Say hi to my little floor patch

[ShardWarrior]

On 2/2/2020 at 10:21 AM, Heraclea said:

"If you build appropriately."  "Additional survival tools."

 

There's the problem right there.  Yes, you can build a quite tough Regen character, in the same way that you can build a quite tough blaster or defender.  But most other armor sets get to start a lot closer to the finish line. 

^ Sums up the issue quite perfectly.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Mr.Sinister said:

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/2065-a-guide-to-health-amp-regeneration-and-how-they-work/

 

if you read this guide you’ll see that at a certain point adding +hp has a much greater effect than adding more regen.  The tanks base hp pool will help immensely. 

Still trying to wrap my head around this. What the sentence says (basically) is that all tanks are better because all Tanks have more health. Sets with powers like Dull Pain that inflate your actual Health and not just heal are even better

 

But that still leaves the old wisdom Def>Res>Heal sitting on the table. Tanks are not good DPS (not starting a war here just stating an arguable point) but if you take Regen and spend half your time planning  and managing your armor how much time does that leave you for DPS?  I run Invulnerable Tanks and  have zero Defense maintenance (i click Dull Pain maybe once a Task Force and that includes the accidental clicks while searching for another power) yet i still am spending a lot of time Taunting and herding. On a Brute I learned to kill what was nearest me, hopefully not corpseblasting, but just kill kill kill whatever is.nearest. On a Tank I am instead Taunting and organizing. If i was also health bar managing personally my attacks would go to almost nothing

Edited February 3, 2020 by Snarky

[Yellowjacket]

This got a lot of (mixed) attention in the Tanker forum so I figured I'd post here as well.

After having a blast doing +4x8 maps on a Claws/Regen Brute on beta, I'd like to see Regen proliferated to Tanker! I think it would be a fun addition for people that like to play with fringe builds like myself.

Here is the original thread:

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/14862-can-we-have-regen-please/