Statesman back in the LRSF

[dangeraaron10]

Well, regardless, being HC now maybe these characters can grow a little bit without developer bad blood influencing their growth.  

[DR_Mechano]

I actually am curious as to why the original version of the LRSF wasn't added to Ouroborus. I mean A Hero's hero was added, Sister P was added, even the original Positron was added...but it seems like a very dubious exclusion and I know people were asking for it even back on live.

 

Still, like I said, Dr Aeon had a massive Hate-on for Statesman and responded with a 'really, you were thinking of bringing him back? After all I did to kill him off?' when Positron mentioned the plan to have Tyrant don the mantle of Statesman during the Battalion story line towards the end. It seems like Dr Aeon wasn't very fond of old Jack or his characters and the fact he killed 3 off in one story arc (was Miss Liberty's (not to be confused with her daughter Ms Liberty) death really needed?).

 

I can see why he got accused of 'stuffing women in fridges' syndrome since both Sister P and Alexis were both killed off in that fashion. Though I had heard a truly bizarre rumor at the time that Sister P was killed off because she was the only Freedom Phalanx member who didn't have a unique costume (you can replicate her entirely in the costume creator with ease) but that was just a rumor. Though to be honest the fact she was killed off because she was a Jack Emmert character seems FAR more likely since it did seem like Dr Aeon was systematically trying to kill them off or put them out of action.

Edited February 8, 2020 by DR_Mechano

[Super Atom]

some of these replies are weird.

 

I just want the ability to fight 54 statesman along side the rest of the FP at the end of that TF, be it oro or otherwise. Adding it to oro probably isn't terribly difficult and changes nothing about the game.  Clearly through oro should be the only way its done if its gonna hurt this many feelings.

[Haijinx]

15 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

some of these replies are weird.

Qft

[DR_Mechano]

19 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

some of these replies are weird.

 

I just want the ability to fight 54 statesman along side the rest of the FP at the end of that TF, be it oro or otherwise. Adding it to oro probably isn't terribly difficult and changes nothing about the game.  Clearly through oro should be the only way its done if its gonna hurt this many feelings.

The thing is that its such an obvious and simple solution that I doubt you're going to find anyone to really argue with it, when it has been raised before pretty much everyone (with a few outliers) has said they'd like to see it...hence the discussion splintering off into other things because...well..we've talked about it before and most people said yes, there really isn't much else to say to simply slapping the original version in Ouroborus and as I said I find it a weird oversight it wasn't.

[MunkiLord]

43 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

some of these replies are weird.

See my earlier post:

  

18 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

Have you ever seen comic book/superhero fans try to "hash out timelines" and other details of continuity? I feel this would not be a constructive use of anyone's time. But it would be amusing.

Clearly I'm psychic. So the solution to this entire thing is to place me in the LRSF instead of Yin or Sister Psyche. And while we're at it, just give me Statesman's powers, because why not?

[Chris24601]

6 hours ago, Vanden said:

The conclusion of SSA 2 sees Statesman’s specific powers destroyed and the power that made them up dispersed. You can write that Ms. Liberty gets a powerup, but having her get the same powers as Statesman directly contradicts that.

Not exactly. Here’s the exact words from the SSA;

 

“What happened to the energy contained in Pandora’s Box?”

 

“It has dissipated, Character. The power still exists, yes - in one form or another. But it has spent too long disconnected from a host, and has lost all form. In time, it will manifest in other ways, but never again to the same degree.“

 

As I previously mentioned, Ms. Liberty already has SOME of the power of Zeus. It’s why she has the lightning bolt and  thunder strike powers. Her pulling off grandpa’s lightning doesn’t require her to gain NEW powers (except in the purely game mechanic sense), just a boost to the super strength, invulnerability and lightning powers she already has.

 

The point being; there’s enough wiggle room between the “power collects” and “the power still exists and will manifest again” to justify buffing Ms. Liberty with fly, Hammer of Justice and Zeus’s Lightning... all of which are just boosts to what she already has.

 

 

[Vanden]

10 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Not exactly. Here’s the exact words from the SSA;

 

“What happened to the energy contained in Pandora’s Box?”

 

“It has dissipated, Character. The power still exists, yes - in one form or another. But it has spent too long disconnected from a host, and has lost all form. In time, it will manifest in other ways, but never again to the same degree.“

 

As I previously mentioned, Ms. Liberty already has SOME of the power of Zeus. It’s why she has the lightning bolt and  thunder strike powers. Her pulling off grandpa’s lightning doesn’t require her to gain NEW powers (except in the purely game mechanic sense), just a boost to the super strength, invulnerability and lightning powers she already has.

 

The point being; there’s enough wiggle room between the “power collects” and “the power still exists and will manifest again” to justify buffing Ms. Liberty with fly, Hammer of Justice and Zeus’s Lightning... all of which are just boosts to what she already has.

Ms. Liberty doesn't have any of Zeus's powers, because she had her powers while Statesman was alive, and after Statesman died his powers were destroyed. Incarnate powers form into a sort of "build" as an individual incarnate develops them. Statesman's powers were developed by Zeus, and inherited by Imperious and then Statesman after Zeus's death. Prometheus explains in-game that if an incarnate dies but then comes back to life, they would still have their powers only as long as no one else inherited them while they were dead. After Statesman's death and the events of SSA, the powers of Zeus are gone; the building blocks still exist, but they don't have the "build" they used to.  Ms. Liberty's powers are her own, not the ones used by Zeus.

Edited February 9, 2020 by Vanden
It's Prometheus in Ouroboros who explains what happens when an incarnate dies, not a dev in an AMA

[Widower]

Oi, no politics. (Other than that, no comment.)

[Chris24601]

I think you’re overthinking it a bit. Ms. Liberty has essentially the same powers as Grandpa, just not at incarnate strength... as did her mother. Whatever made Marcus Cole an incarnate clearly had follow-on effects since his daughter and granddaughter were also long-lived (Miss Liberty was already active in 1963 so even if she was in her 20’s then she sure didn’t look to be in her 70s when she died almost 50 years later), super-strong, invulnerable and can channel lightning and they had those abilities because of who their father/grandfather was.

 

It may not be incarnate strength Zeus-iness, but it’s definitely inherited because granddad had Zeus’ power inside him. For that matter, the Olympian Guards were non-incarnate clones of Emperor Cole and also possess similar powers.

 

You can say that’s not the power of Zeus, but to me incarnate-boosted lightning powers aquired because an ancestor had the power of Zeus and incarnate lightning powers from a Zeus-shaped connection to the Well feels like a distinction without a difference.

 

We just interpret the lore differently is all, and until someone “official” does something to conform or deny one, the other or both there is no actual right answer.

[siolfir]

4 hours ago, DR_Mechano said:

I actually am curious as to why the original version of the LRSF wasn't added to Ouroborus. I mean A Hero's hero was added, Sister P was added, even the original Positron was added...but it seems like a very dubious exclusion and I know people were asking for it even back on live.

Simple: the devs hate villains. Even Null acknowledges that!

 

I was one of the ones surprised/disappointed that the original wasn't added to Ouroboros when it was updated, and I would be surprised if the original data for it is still around. I'd guess it would have to be remade, which is why I said earlier I'm not sure how much work it would be.

[VileTerror]

Well, looks like some of that timeline work is already done after all!

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Canon_Timeline

[Heraclea]

On 2/7/2020 at 4:08 PM, Sakura Tenshi said:

 but today's Incarnate of Zeus' was yesterday's 'Incarnate of Thor' or going back further some proto-indo-European lightning God.

You mean Perkwunos?  Sweetheart of a guy.  Don't have any problems with him. 

 

Zeus, though?  Athene can run rings around him. 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2020 by Heraclea

[Sakura Tenshi]

20 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

Zeus, though?  Athene can run rings around him. 

Funny thing about that, mythologically, the reason Zeus ate Athena's mother was because Athena was predicted to one day to one day overthrow him. Least as I recall. But no later myths had her try to take over.

[VileTerror]

As I recall, there were variations of the myths.  I have heard that there is historical evidence suggesting that the cult of Athena predated the cult of Zeus.  However, the cult of Zeus became more popular, and then (sort of how the fanfictions of today can sometimes supplant the canon lore in a comic when a new author is given the reins of a long-lasting franchise) the Zeus cult rewrote the Athena lore to suggest she was the offspring of Zeus.  A fully-formed warrior, as a compromise to the old worshippers, but ultimately overwritten.

 

I mean, really . . . these mythologies spanned hundreds of years!  Seeing how quickly variations in modern religions and works of fiction can radically change things in a single lifetime, I kind of think this theory holds some water.  Especially considering that all accounts of ancient mythologies are historical reproductions based on indirect sources, conjecture, and assumptions.  HELL!  Even some of the stuff which is touted as ancient mythology is rooted more in early film and television adaptations of the material than anything more "creditable." 

 

But this whole tangent can head over to the Off-Topic or Geek Culture boards, frankly.  This thread's supposed to be about the original Lord Recluse Strike Force showing up in-game again.

[Heraclea]

IMO the place where Statesman's absence is felt most keenly is in the Maria Jenkins Hero's Hero arc.  This has been downgraded from 'go save the hero who is the public face of the game and the most famous guy in Paragon City' to 'go save the guy who gives you level 8 task forces.'  This is not an improvement, nor is the replacement of many of the original enemies with IDF, which are the Longbow and Arachnos of the late game.   I don't know if the original version is available in Ouroboros, because the whole thing is too long to finish in one sitting.  It should be if it isn't. 

[DR_Mechano]

12 hours ago, Heraclea said:

IMO the place where Statesman's absence is felt most keenly is in the Maria Jenkins Hero's Hero arc.  This has been downgraded from 'go save the hero who is the public face of the game and the most famous guy in Paragon City' to 'go save the guy who gives you level 8 task forces.'  This is not an improvement, nor is the replacement of many of the original enemies with IDF, which are the Longbow and Arachnos of the late game.   I don't know if the original version is available in Ouroboros, because the whole thing is too long to finish in one sitting.  It should be if it isn't. 

a Hero's Hero is indeed in Ouroboros (a Hero's Epic is its replacement arc) with all things still intact.

[Super Atom]

2 hours ago, DR_Mechano said:

a Hero's Hero is indeed in Ouroboros (a Hero's Epic is its replacement arc) with all things still intact.

 

Statesman is also still in the mender silos mission. He appears in a couple oroborus things, that's why it would not be out of place to add the LRSF.

[CU_Krow]

Since this thread is leaning more towards the "Bring old LRSF, but in Ouroboros." Long as the proposition sticks in that direction, I'm more willing to change my previous vote to yes. 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 2/8/2020 at 9:36 AM, Vanden said:

So essentially you refuse to separate a character with his creator and conflate them as if they were the same person, and intentionally try to take the most negative possible interpretation of a character as the baseline. It sounds like you shouldn’t be trusted in any lore discussions.

 

The conclusion of SSA 2 sees Statesman’s specific powers destroyed and the power that made them up dispersed. You can write that Ms. Liberty gets a powerup, but having her get the same powers as Statesman directly contradicts that. And if you replace Statesman with someone with different powers, you miss the point of this complaint; the suggestion keeps showing up because people miss fighting big lightning bolt boy.

Im not the one who began the tradition of dev game avatar.  I had regular interaction back on live with Infernal and Ghost Falcon, the in game characters very much were each the personal pet of the dev behind the avatar and yes that is why we see such ego from Statesman because that was Jack, and why they chose to kill him off in a rather pathetic and obvious trap, Jack was not very well liked the those who became Paragon after they broke off from NC soft.

 

Its not some mystery that a number of coh heroic icons are at best barely deserving of being called hero. Blue Steel is a perfect example and should have been punished for what he did to the teen age boy who would become the clockwork king, but was basically given a free pass for being one of statesman's crew. Meanwhile the Mistress of the carnival of shadows, whose major early crime was avenging a friend who would not otherwise of had justice because of the power and connections protecting the scum. The carnival in general is more a vigilante/rogue group and mainly only does harm to the wealthy elite men that get away with abusing women. Vanessa was a far greater instrument in saving the world from the initial rikti assault, yet not given a pass because she was not a part of the main hero teams.

 

Not to mention unless you are pro Zeus, or think a god raping mortal women is ok, and prior to the whole well of furies incarnate fine tuning near the end of live, the idea was statesman was indeed fighting for control of his body with said deity. That is why Cole couldnt draw on his full power because more power less control.

 

Really there isnt all that much in lore to make characters like Staresman all that likeable. I mean I cant think of any lore really that does, can you? Simply fighting bad guys and saving the day isnt enough in my book to like him.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 2/8/2020 at 5:41 PM, Chris24601 said:

I think you’re overthinking it a bit. Ms. Liberty has essentially the same powers as Grandpa, just not at incarnate strength... as did her mother. Whatever made Marcus Cole an incarnate clearly had follow-on effects since his daughter and granddaughter were also long-lived (Miss Liberty was already active in 1963 so even if she was in her 20’s then she sure didn’t look to be in her 70s when she died almost 50 years later), super-strong, invulnerable and can channel lightning and they had those abilities because of who their father/grandfather was.

 

It may not be incarnate strength Zeus-iness, but it’s definitely inherited because granddad had Zeus’ power inside him. For that matter, the Olympian Guards were non-incarnate clones of Emperor Cole and also possess similar powers.

 

You can say that’s not the power of Zeus, but to me incarnate-boosted lightning powers aquired because an ancestor had the power of Zeus and incarnate lightning powers from a Zeus-shaped connection to the Well feels like a distinction without a difference.

 

We just interpret the lore differently is all, and until someone “official” does something to conform or deny one, the other or both there is no actual right answer.

Uhm I could be fuzzy on this as its beena  while since Ive read up on the liberty ladies, but I could of sworn the first liberty and her 2 heirs drew their power from the artifact Hera's Girdle. Statesman was a gods avatar, he was indicated several times to be ageless and even immortal prior to the ritual draining his power away. Nothing I can recall reading suggest the power passed on.

[Super Atom]

1 hour ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Im not the one who began the tradition of dev game avatar.  I had regular interaction back on live with Infernal and Ghost Falcon, the in game characters very much were each the personal pet of the dev behind the avatar and yes that is why we see such ego from Statesman because that was Jack, and why they chose to kill him off in a rather pathetic and obvious trap, Jack was not very well liked the those who became Paragon after they broke off from NC soft.

 

Its not some mystery that a number of coh heroic icons are at best barely deserving of being called hero. Blue Steel is a perfect example and should have been punished for what he did to the teen age boy who would become the clockwork king, but was basically given a free pass for being one of statesman's crew. Meanwhile the Mistress of the carnival of shadows, whose major early crime was avenging a friend who would not otherwise of had justice because of the power and connections protecting the scum. The carnival in general is more a vigilante/rogue group and mainly only does harm to the wealthy elite men that get away with abusing women. Vanessa was a far greater instrument in saving the world from the initial rikti assault, yet not given a pass because she was not a part of the main hero teams.

 

Not to mention unless you are pro Zeus, or think a god raping mortal women is ok, and prior to the whole well of furies incarnate fine tuning near the end of live, the idea was statesman was indeed fighting for control of his body with said deity. That is why Cole couldnt draw on his full power because more power less control.

 

Really there isnt all that much in lore to make characters like Staresman all that likeable. I mean I cant think of any lore really that does, can you? Simply fighting bad guys and saving the day isnt enough in my book to like him.

 

You absolute hypocrite, venessa wears a mask that literally tried to steal her body. the same thing you gave sister crap for, despite her not stealing anyone's body. Also venessa ate unwilling subjects souls to sustain herself to fight the rikti, of course she didn't get a pass while someone who rescued people and was a larger part in stopping the rikti did. She manipulates young girls to do her bidding and kills anyone she deems unworthy and thats your idea of a hero? No wonder you dislike statesman, someone who time after time put himself at risk to prevent disaster.

 

Statesman,  a brave soldier who sought to stop himself from succumbing to mustard gas got the powers of a god and devoted himself to protecting innocent people. He helped stop the nazi's from ruling the world and he isn't likeable? What's wrong with you?

 

and stop it with the Zeus rape stuff, you're grasping at straws to condemn someone for something they didn't even do and would have stopped if he could.

Edited February 10, 2020 by Super Atom

[Super Atom]

On 2/8/2020 at 1:08 PM, dangeraaron10 said:

Well, regardless, being HC now maybe these characters can grow a little bit without developer bad blood influencing their growth.  

This.

 

Statesman dying the way he did was a giant slap in the face to the overall story of CoH. If the devs truly wanted him to die, they could have killed him any number of ways that would of been more fitting and progressed the story much further but no they chose to take a petty hatred for a former coworker and kill his characters off in a lame side story. They could have used Statesman's death to show how dangerous the battalion was or maybe even for rikti round 2.

[Sakura Tenshi]

I mean, personally, if I had written the SSA, I actually would have had Statesman live, just be depowered. Blah blah blah, stuff I've said a million times... Statesman dies holding off swarms of incarnate powered Praetorian invaders with an SMG, hotblood, and the power of God and Anime on his side and found on his feet when dead like Cu Chulainn.

 

That said, if I had been the one in charge of the SSA it might have been a copout with only Miss Liberty dying (then)

[Vanden]

2 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Not to mention unless you are pro Zeus, or think a god raping mortal women is ok, and prior to the whole well of furies incarnate fine tuning near the end of live, the idea was statesman was indeed fighting for control of his body with said deity. That is why Cole couldnt draw on his full power because more power less control.

Yeah, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You want to push this narrative so bad that you're either ignoring or missing that Zeus is not the same person as the Well of the Furies or Statesman, two very important aspects of the lore.

 

1 hour ago, Super Atom said:

If the devs truly wanted him to die, they could have killed him any number of ways that would of been more fitting and progressed the story much further but no they chose to take a petty hatred for a former coworker and kill his characters off in a lame side story.

The SSAs are not side stories, they're major story arcs, more important than most TFs, even.