Scale Knockback Chance,Not Just Magnitude, Across ATs

[Outrider_01]

Welcome to the preshow, hope you used the bathroom and brought a drink.

 

Spoiler

  

19 hours ago, Super Atom said:

 

The problem is knocking them away at all. Scatter isn't great but knocking them back further wouldn't help either. People get annoyed because knockbackers just throw the mobs around and make people miss their AoE's and mess up cones. Not to mention knocking out of debuffs or other patch based powers.

Two options:

Stop grouping, problem solved

Educate the person using it, problem solved.

 

You seem to imply that knockback is causing the sky to fall.  Guess what?  It isn't.  You and every other complainer need to adapt or stop whining.  Its in the game, period.  No toggle, no accolade, no global IO, no gather option reverse repell, ect ect ect can unpucker your butt with the raging anger you feel; of a single effect in a video game.  All you are going to do is cause anyone who isn't gonna use what ever to control KB besides the current IO is going to become a pariah and exiled them from the group.  Because you can't handle it, that is incredibly childish.

 

• It was never a problem, no one ever cared on Live
• No one ever complained as big as the crowd in HC
• Cones?  AoE?  What the bloody F**K is everyone worried about, a good damn bunch of minions that are gonna get flattened anyway? 
  • -  /Beaker from Muppets  - "MINIONS!?!? YAAHAHAHAHAHAH!"
  • Couple extra attacks, won't hurt anyone anyway.
• On that last note, LT/Boss/EB/AV....THEY CAN'T DIE TO AOE?!?!?!? unless at minus infinity hitpoints
  • - There are how many minions that are a real threat?  Sappers, Carnies, few others....everything else is curb stomped

The biggest issue is cones with knockback and a few ranged AoE, anyone sending a single minion/lt/boss isn't going to do jackshit with single target.  Oddballs like Hurricane/Gale...one single -KB IO and the issue is solved, except for the REPEL WHICH ISN'T KNOCKBACK as it is coded; it just acts that way as another form of control because it is as different as Immb vs Hold.  Maybe a -Repel IO....and problem solved, not like there is IO for Repel or Intangible set anyway, maybe turn Intangible to a short duration untouchable hold (now an IO set can exist) with significant amount of damage as the target is "ripped from reality"....and your group can shut up, you did all the work.

 

The other issue is the player using it:

• You  completely dismissed Greycat who says how they can use KB by positional
  • That is the act of a superior player vs the newb slinging it every time the button is not grayed out
• How much of an idiot can you  sound like if you think Greycat is herding an entire spawn?  It is just a few single targets, maybe 2-3 every few mins. They are not acting like a sheep dog, that is what a tank is for.
• Oh, tanks are herding in entire spawns...to be positional...its like the act of doing the KB which uses single target... Eleventyb1!1ion!!! baddies like a lazy tank for the lazy group to nuke.

 

What is the complaint?

• - Speed run TF...you set the weakest settings.  Problem solved
• - Incarnates; flatten all normal content
• - Who really runs like "Ye olden Days" with SO? Sets, Incarnate, ect blow those minions away
• - Are minions a real threat?  Nope, few types and maybe a few groups...
  • - Cryptic/Paragon Studios had to dumb down the Knives of Artemis cause "boo hoo, caltrops slow me down and dot me to death" +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1
  • - Sappers, lets ask for the crappy first electric attack.  Carnies, lets ask them to cast AM on death.  Hey, lets make the game easier and stupid mode!
• Justify ruining a herd for AoE/Cones for those minions...like you want easy mode without a challenge?  Are we playing the same HC right now? You could use brawl, origin attack, and the P2W dagger to kill a +4 AV; with any/all Incarnate powers would be EZPZ using those 3 but takes forever.

 

Christ, people are not trolling a group with KB.  Its just the whiners getting annoyed cause they have less brain function to realize how KB can be used and not bothering to educate someone how/when/where to use it, they just exile someone out of the group acting like a complete dick.

 

[SwitchFade]

Oh look, an empty seat!

 

Hi, anyone sitting here? Sorry, I came in from the restroom during the opening scene.

 

What's that? Yes, I'm hoping this flick is scary too, so many of these shows are just kind of a let down.

 

Blood? No, I'm not so much into Gore, but I do hope we get some good thriller scenes.

 

Yeah, of course, you can have some popcorn! Did you want a cup for your own?

 

Now, where are my /jranger 3D glasses...?

 

Ah, good! We started out with flame! This is great!

 

*Munch, munch*

[MunkiLord]

3 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

Welcome to the preshow, hope you used the bathroom and brought a drink.

 

  Hide contents

  

Two options:

Stop grouping, problem solved

Educate the person using it, problem solved.

 

You seem to imply that knockback is causing the sky to fall.  Guess what?  It isn't.  You and every other complainer need to adapt or stop whining.  Its in the game, period.  No toggle, no accolade, no global IO, no gather option reverse repell, ect ect ect can unpucker your butt with the raging anger you feel; of a single effect in a video game.  All you are going to do is cause anyone who isn't gonna use what ever to control KB besides the current IO is going to become a pariah and exiled them from the group.  Because you can't handle it, that is incredibly childish.

 

• It was never a problem, no one ever cared on Live
• No one ever complained as big as the crowd in HC
• Cones?  AoE?  What the bloody F**K is everyone worried about, a good damn bunch of minions that are gonna get flattened anyway? 
  • -  /Beaker from Muppets  - "MINIONS!?!? YAAHAHAHAHAHAH!"
  • Couple extra attacks, won't hurt anyone anyway.
• On that last note, LT/Boss/EB/AV....THEY CAN'T DIE TO AOE?!?!?!? unless at minus infinity hitpoints
  • - There are how many minions that are a real threat?  Sappers, Carnies, few others....everything else is curb stomped

The biggest issue is cones with knockback and a few ranged AoE, anyone sending a single minion/lt/boss isn't going to do jackshit with single target.  Oddballs like Hurricane/Gale...one single -KB IO and the issue is solved, except for the REPEL WHICH ISN'T KNOCKBACK as it is coded; it just acts that way as another form of control because it is as different as Immb vs Hold.  Maybe a -Repel IO....and problem solved, not like there is IO for Repel or Intangible set anyway, maybe turn Intangible to a short duration untouchable hold (now an IO set can exist) with significant amount of damage as the target is "ripped from reality"....and your group can shut up, you did all the work.

 

The other issue is the player using it:

• You  completely dismissed Greycat who says how they can use KB by positional
  • That is the act of a superior player vs the newb slinging it every time the button is not grayed out
• How much of an idiot can you  sound like if you think Greycat is herding an entire spawn?  It is just a few single targets, maybe 2-3 every few mins. They are not acting like a sheep dog, that is what a tank is for.
• Oh, tanks are herding in entire spawns...to be positional...its like the act of doing the KB which uses single target... Eleventyb1!1ion!!! baddies like a lazy tank for the lazy group to nuke.

 

What is the complaint?

• - Speed run TF...you set the weakest settings.  Problem solved
• - Incarnates; flatten all normal content
• - Who really runs like "Ye olden Days" with SO? Sets, Incarnate, ect blow those minions away
• - Are minions a real threat?  Nope, few types and maybe a few groups...
  • - Cryptic/Paragon Studios had to dumb down the Knives of Artemis cause "boo hoo, caltrops slow me down and dot me to death" +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1
  • - Sappers, lets ask for the crappy first electric attack.  Carnies, lets ask them to cast AM on death.  Hey, lets make the game easier and stupid mode!
• Justify ruining a herd for AoE/Cones for those minions...like you want easy mode without a challenge?  Are we playing the same HC right now? You could use brawl, origin attack, and the P2W dagger to kill a +4 AV; with any/all Incarnate powers would be EZPZ using those 3 but takes forever.

 

Christ, people are not trolling a group with KB.  Its just the whiners getting annoyed cause they have less brain function to realize how KB can be used and not bothering to educate someone how/when/where to use it, they just exile someone out of the group acting like a complete dick.

 

Well said. 

[Super Atom]

I wrote out like a whole thing, but your post was so stupid i just would rather this thread die and i never have to see you again then respond to it.

 

@Outrider_01 My only  hope is you didn't respond to it before i edited it.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Super Atom

[Super Atom]

6 hours ago, Leogunner said:

And this is why we don't let the kids drive the bus.  

Aren't you the same guy who thinks rebalancing to IO's is a good thing?

 

Yeah, i agree. This is why we don't let kids drive the bus.

[SwitchFade]

I think... Random stuff.

 

I digress.

 

ANYHOW... Let's be Frank, he won't mind!

 

Knockback is super annoying. It is! What can I say, troof hurts. Now, I'm cool with it mostly, I love energy blasters, not a huge deal. I love Kheldians, but I'll be a good gal darn, when PB's mass KB things out of all AoE; when stormies use Gale like a mallet at a gopher game, auto fire... You feel me.

 

Hey, stop feeling me! 😋

 

Let's swing the pendulum back to the center, neh? Knockback is not as bad as it is made out to be, knockback is worse than some think it is. And! And!  Knockback should be revised.

 

That said, some of us here were a little too vigoroisly spiteful. Knockback™ it off!

 

See what I did thurr? Really though, let's not be vengeful.

 

Cuz you never know, even though I love you though you hurt me so...

 

I may just pack my things and go!

[Super Atom]

6 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Let's swing the pendulum back to the center, neh? Knockback is not as bad as it is made out to be, knockback is worse than some think it is. And! And!  Knockback should be revised.

 

This is fair. Though i'm not sure it needs revised exactly? I don't like it and i've seen a couple of people make a couple of good suggestions but i can't think of anything to do to it myself without just making everything as baby as possible and nobody wants that.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Super Atom

[Solarverse]

Not even going to go into the argument about knock back...everyone here knows how I feel about knock back. So let's just say I am more specifically talking about knock down here.

 

First, I don't think so. There is no reason at all that I can think of that your defender should be able to knock down more often than my blaster can. I am a blaster, which means I should have complete control over my abilities. Energy Blaster is my primary, it's your secondary. Therefore I as a Blaster should be more skilled with my Primary. I do not believe anyone should have a higher chance to knock down than a Blaster when it comes to ranged abilities. If a Defender has 75, 85 or even 100 percent chance to knock down, then a Blaster should get that same chance.

[Wavicle]

Knockback already does scale with archetype to the extent it needs to which is simply that there are buff and control sets with strong knock down and knock back abilities such as storm summoning, force field, and more.

[oedipus_tex]

2 hours ago, Solarverse said:

There is no reason at all that I can think of that your defender should be able to knock down more often than my blaster can. I am a blaster, which means I should have complete control over my abilities. Energy Blaster is my primary, it's your secondary. Therefore I as a Blaster should be more skilled with my Primary. I do not believe anyone should have a higher chance to knock down than a Blaster when it comes to ranged abilities. If a Defender has 75, 85 or even 100 percent chance to knock down, then a Blaster should get that same chance.

 

Defenders already do more knockback than Blasters do, just measured in Magnitude, not Chance. The point of Defender blasts is supposed to be their added utility. Extra Magnitude does not provide much utility. The utility is in the chance to knockback, which is what should have scaled.

 

Most other secondary effects already scale across archetypes and this is why those blast sets are popular. Archery, Assault Rifle, and Energy Blast barely scale, but would under this proposal.

 

~~~~

Also, unrelated to above:

Quote

other people posting stuff

 

I am not going to dive into a flame war beyond saying I think we'd all be much happier if we assumed other players make their comments in good faith. Let's keep the insults out of it. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Oubliette_Red]

9 hours ago, Troo said:

yep, i think all the ingredients are here. popcorn is ready. 

[Leogunner]

4 hours ago, Super Atom said:

Aren't you the same guy who thinks rebalancing to IO's is a good thing?

 

Yeah, i agree. This is why we don't let kids drive the bus.

You've got the wrong person.

 

Rebalancing to IOs?  What does that mean?  Without context, I couldn't say we should or shouldn't rebalance for IOs.  I DO feel IOs should be rebalanced, likely with categorizing a lot of the +def and +res bonuses to the same tier (tiny, small, moderate, etc) so it's harder to get a large amount of defense or resistance.

 

Should difficulty be balanced around min/maxed builds?  You've definitely got the wrong person if you think I condone balancing around min/maxed builds.

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

Defenders already do more knockback than Blasters do, just measured in Magnitude, not Chance. The point of Defender blasts is supposed to be their added utility. Extra Magnitude does not provide much utility. The utility is in the chance to knockback, which is what should have scaled.

 

Most other secondary effects already scale across archetypes and this is why those blast sets are popular. Archery, Assault Rifle, and Energy Blast barely scale, but would under this proposal.

My opinion: I feel it's not unfair that certain ATs benefit more or differently from certain sets across ATs.  Some coniserations: Stalker Spines takes a penalty in AoE damage, control and crit chance despite their being the burst damage melee but gains some ST DPS.  Brute/Tanker MA gain more benefit from the low tier Storm Kick granting +def which tends to carry more utility than a small +% crit chance.  Anything that grants a substantial amount of +dmg or high scaled damage benefits a Scrapper far more.

 

If Energy Blast's secondary function isn't as beneficial to a Defender or is the same just means you'll have varying degrees of utility depending on AT from a set in a vacuum.

 

If you just want to feel Defender isn't shafted because the secondary effect doesn't scale, why not grant it some other benefit instead, like +range, or slightly reduced endurance costs?  As is, I think Energy Blast specifically is just a middle-ing set.  It grants soft control to any AT that uses it and Blasters and Corruptors just happen to do more damage with it.  Not every set should be taxed the same as every set doesn't have the same levels of output.

[Super Atom]

16 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

You've got the wrong person.

 

Rebalancing to IOs?  What does that mean?  Without context, I couldn't say we should or shouldn't rebalance for IOs.  I DO feel IOs should be rebalanced, likely with categorizing a lot of the +def and +res bonuses to the same tier (tiny, small, moderate, etc) so it's harder to get a large amount of defense or resistance.

 

Should difficulty be balanced around min/maxed builds?  You've definitely got the wrong person if you think I condone balancing around min/maxed builds.

 

how many people with a furry icon could there possibly be.

 

Also that's a decently informed reply, I'm surprised you don't see how knock back is mostly a negative. Also your comment is a little out there as regardless of my opinion on it I've never called for knock back to be removed or changed. Never once have i implied there was even a bus to be driven. Only that knockback was a negative on teams more than it isn't.

 

 

[Leogunner]

5 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

how many people with a furry icon could there possibly be.

 

Also that's a decently informed reply, I'm surprised you don't see how knock back is mostly a negative. Also your comment is a little out there as regardless of my opinion on it I've never called for knock back to be removed or changed. Never once have i implied there was even a bus to be driven. Only that knockback was a negative on teams more than it isn't.

 

 

Am I the only poster with a furry avatar?  Check out my profile for more furryness.

 

If you suggest knockback is mostly negative on teams, I ask for what?  Negative in what way?  Negative to what purpose?

 

If you say team efficiency I'll just reply who cares?  You want to go fast? Pick up stealth, go to the mission objective and solo it.  You want to maximize your AoE? Solo your own spawns. You want to maximize your rewards? Go join a farm or just farm yourself.  If the purpose is to kill everything ASAP, I ask:

 

What the fuck is the rush for?

 

This isn't a standard subscription MMO.  You're not losing money playing this game.  All the rewards are cheap, a farmer can earn a full tricked out build in a day.  So why the F do you need to min/max everything?  I could elaborate on the various positives of KB but it's pointless if the only thing you care about is a useless race to a goal that doesn't exist.

[Super Atom]

Just now, Leogunner said:

Am I the only poster with a furry avatar?  Check out my profile for more furryness.

 

If you suggest knockback is mostly negative on teams, I ask for what?  Negative in what way?  Negative to what purpose?

 

If you say team efficiency I'll just reply who cares?  You want to go fast? Pick up stealth, go to the mission objective and solo it.  You want to maximize your AoE? Solo your own spawns. You want to maximize your rewards? Go join a farm or just farm yourself.  If the purpose is to kill everything ASAP, I ask:

 

What the fuck is the rush for?

 

This isn't a standard subscription MMO.  You're not losing money playing this game.  All the rewards are cheap, a farmer can earn a full tricked out build in a day.  So why the F do you need to min/max everything?  I could elaborate on the various positives of KB but it's pointless if the only thing you care about is a useless race to a goal that doesn't exist.

Thats the joke. the furry thing.

 

I see this a lot, when people defend knockback It's either

 

1. I position myself correctly!

or

2. Why do you care?

 

The answer isn't as complicated as it seems to be. A vast majority of people do not position themselves correctly. This is pretty much known even to those who take option 1. As for option 2, thats a list of excuses a mile long. Why do you care that I'm knocking away enemies at random? Well. It's not about speed, It's not about farming or herding or min/maxing. It's just a negative effect on the team created by a team member. When I'm saying its a negative, I don't mean "Knockback users suck" I mean It's literally a negative ability aimed at your own teams abilities. Cones/Aoes/Debuffs etc are all interupted by a single effect. Yes it slows it down but that isn't entirely the point. The worst offender is energy blast. It catches a lot of flak because it has to deal with knock back in every single ability. It maintains a negative effect in multiple powers but has no real advantage over the other sets. It doesn't do more damage to compensate for it nor does it have some outlier thing where it saps endurance or does -res. It literally just knocks people around. I hope this helps you understand a little better and instead of making random assumptions/excuses can see where I'm coming from on the negative thing.

[Leogunner]

4 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Thats the joke. the furry thing.

 

I see this a lot, when people defend knockback It's either

 

1. I position myself correctly!

or

2. Why do you care?

 

The answer isn't as complicated as it seems to be. A vast majority of people do not position themselves correctly. This is pretty much known even to those who take option 1. As for option 2, thats a list of excuses a mile long. Why do you care that I'm knocking away enemies at random? Well. It's not about speed, It's not about farming or herding or min/maxing. It's just a negative effect on the team created by a team member. When I'm saying its a negative, I don't mean "Knockback users suck" I mean It's literally a negative ability aimed at your own teams abilities. Cones/Aoes/Debuffs etc are all interupted by a single effect. Yes it slows it down but that isn't entirely the point. The worst offender is energy blast. It catches a lot of flak because it has to deal with knock back in every single ability. It maintains a negative effect in multiple powers but has no real advantage over the other sets. It doesn't do more damage to compensate for it nor does it have some outlier thing where it saps endurance or does -res. It literally just knocks people around. I hope this helps you understand a little better and instead of making random assumptions/excuses can see where I'm coming from on the negative thing.

Maybe I'm dense but, the obvious advantage you willfully dismiss is that a foe knocked to the ground is a for unable to act.

 

Everything you just said is countered by that one fact. 

[Super Atom]

Just now, Leogunner said:

Maybe I'm dense but, the obvious advantage you willfully dismiss is that a foe knocked to the ground is a for unable to act.

 

Everything you just said is countered by that one fact. 

 

Unable to act for like 3-5 seconds? While now also knocked out of cones/patches/debuffs/aoes/pbaoes/potentially knocked off a high spot forcing a chase or a possible miss and backtrack in a defeat all, maybe even knocked through a wall and the map. Yeah 3-5 seconds is totally worth all of that being disrupted. That doesn't counter anything because you know what achieves the same thing? Knockdown.

[Leogunner]

2 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

Unable to act for like 3-5 seconds? While now also knocked out of cones/patches/debuffs/aoes/pbaoes/potentially knocked off a high spot forcing a chase or a possible miss and backtrack in a defeat all, maybe even knocked through a wall and the map. Yeah 3-5 seconds is totally worth all of that being disrupted. That doesn't counter anything because you know what achieves the same thing? Knockdown.

Knock down last even less time that kb and the pro is that it can take effect without stacking magnitude. 

 

And if something is knocked out of range of some AoE, there exists single target effects and single target focused sets for a reason. 

 

You can come up with whatever fringe scenario of how KB is so negative and I bet you any amount of money that I can name another fringe scenario where KB saved me or was just a net positive. 

[Super Atom]

Just now, Leogunner said:

Knock down last even less time that kb and the pro is that it can take effect without stacking magnitude. 

 

And if something is knocked out of range of some AoE, there exists single target effects and single target focused sets for a reason. 

 

You can come up with whatever fringe scenario of how KB is so negative and I bet you any amount of money that I can name another fringe scenario where KB saved me or was just a net positive. 

 

You're just skirting around what I'm saying by only saying there is positive. You're either naive or intentionally misleading. I never said It's a pure negative. Only that it's more negative than positive. We can disagree on that sure, but for you to sit here and say there is no negative to KB is objectively false.

 

[oedipus_tex]

In the case of Energy Blast I have to assume the player took that power set seeing knockback as part of the equation. It's the main feature of the set. If they suck with it, well, that's their Yelp review to manage. 😄

 

For some reason the developers gave Defenders higher Magnitude knockback than Blasters, and from all appearances it was a belief that the extra distance would be useful. IMO it didn't work out that way. A better proxy for Knockback to make it analogous to -ToHit, -Damage, -Resist and so on is not its Magnitude but its Chance. 

 

[Outrider_01]

6 hours ago, Super Atom said:

I wrote out like a whole thing, but your post was so stupid i just would rather this thread die and i never have to see you again then respond to it.

 

@Outrider_01 My only  hope is you didn't respond to it before i edited it.

The only stupid posts contain rhetoric complain there is a problem with KB and "trolling the group".  I didn't see your post and chose the spoiler tag to keep it short and avoidable if you wanted.

 

You and everyone that post the same stupid about KB need to get over it.  Nobody is trolling the group; they either have no clue how to use it properly in a group and I doubt you bother to educate them.  The AoE defense "ruins it" is laughable, as I said the only thing you AoE/cone are minions since it should be noticeable that its about 6 minions/1 LT/1Boss (bigger for higher difficulties) so who need to hit more than 1 target that is tagged Lt/Boss.

 

My only beef is the revulsion and hatred directed towards a player with knockback powers more then KB itself.  No power in the game itself can troll as is, its the player behind it and how its utilized so either its intentional or ignorance.  Most of the time its ignorance; educate them how to use it (the part where you dismiss someone who knows how to use it, you should be happy as it is one less migraine and ulcer to worry about).

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, Outrider_01 said:

blah blah blah blah

 

"Get over it." "It's everyone elses fault not mine" "You should just learn to play better"

 

Neat dude.

[Haijinx]

That devolved quickly. 

 

 

[Super Atom]

10 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

That devolved quickly. 

 

 

 

You're right and to be honest, I'm sorry @oedipus_tex for derailing your thread.

 

Knock back is a spicy subject.

 

It's like saying Titan weapons is boring. 😉