Dark armour

[oldskool]

This thread needs something, but I can't quite put my finger on it...

 

[Obus Form]

21 hours ago, Replacement said:

Dark Armor total end cost before either of the mez auras: 1.41 end/sec

 

Invulnerability end cost for all toggles: 0.73

 

Fiery Aura, all toggles: 1.04 + end refill

 

Shield Defense, all toggles: 0.63

 

One of these is simply not like the others.  It's probably the one with a Click ability that costs 1/3rd of your Endurance bar.  Yeah, I know, theft of essence.  But it's really not even enough.  I think I'd be fine at this point if we just lowered Dark Regeneration's End cost.

 

EDIT: found a comparable one. 

Ice Armor: full cost, 1.56 + End refill.

 

Context and choice.  Then math.

 

Toggle costs

/DA

- 2 resist toggles = 0.21 x 2 = 0.42 end/sec (this is 20% reduced compared to all other resist toggles)

- 1 mez toggle = 0.21 end/sec (this is 20% discount compared to /invuln but /invuln also gives further resist, but same cost as other armor sets)

- 1 def toggle = 0.26 end/sec (/invuln def toggle is 0.21 end/sec)

- 1 damage aura = 0.52 end/sec (same as Electric Field, Blazing Aura, Mud pots is 0.78 end/sec)

- total 1.41 end/sec

 

When it comes to choosing a secondary set, Dark Armour has all the utility of other sets (except random stuff like Phalanx Fighting and Shield Crash from /Shield) with almost no drawbacks (except lower energy rez that is actually the same as /invuln without slotting, and no knockback protection but that's overcome with 1 or 2 slots in travel powers).  If you turn off /DA Death Shroud, the 2 resists + 1 mez + 1 def = 0.89 end/sec and is comparable to other sets.

 

As @Trickshooter mentioned, the set itself has 20% end reduction for its 2 resist toggles.  However, the set has the option to use its other utility tools (damage aura, defense with innate stealth).  You don't have to take those options, or pay for it, but the armor set makes it available if you want it.  My car can have heated seats, over-powered heating/aircon, heated steering wheel (I live in Toronto, in Canada), and super heated back sets (backseat car sex).  When I drive with all my car toggles on I consume gas faster, but its the option of having it that is why I picked those features for my car.  I don't have to use those options all the time when I'm driving.

 

The big heal

It cannot be overstated.  /Dark Armour also has the most powerful heal in the game when comparing Heal%/second recharging (not including the incarnate team heal) that full heals you if you fight 2 mobs every 9-10 seconds (assuming hasten, and fully 6-slot with Preventative Medicine). Compared to the Defender's Empathy power Heal Other, 6 slotted with Preventative Medicine IO set heals 50% every 1.5-3 seconds.  So that's 100% every 3-6 seconds, but it's unreliable to expect your a Defender Empath to correctly know when you will eat damage.  In iTrials, when I am main tanking AVs, my full heal is the 0.5 second reaction I need to stay live FIRST, then my Defender Empathy can pile more heals and our blasters can /Barrier themselves, etc.

 

Here's the chart.  Look at the right column "Heal/Recharge" to see that, at 1 or 2 mobs, DA Dark Regen heals the highest % of HP per second of recharge

Armor set	Power name	Heal %	Recharge	End Cost	Heal/end	Heal/Recharge
DA	Dark Regen at 2 mob	60	30	33	1.818181818	2
DA	Dark Regen at 1 mob	30	30	33	0.909090909	1
Fiery Aura	Healing Flames	25	40	10.4	2.403846154	0.625
Regen	Reconstruction	25	60	10.4	2.403846154	0.416666667
Bio Armor	Ablative Carapace	30	90	10.4	2.884615385	0.333333333
Radiation	Particle Shielding	30	120	10.4	2.884615385	0.25
Ice Armor	Hoarfrost	80	360	14.56	5.494505495	0.222222222
Invuln	Dull Pain	80	360	14.56	5.494505495	0.222222222
Stone	Earth Embrace	80	360	10.4	7.692307692	0.222222222
Electric Armor	Energize	25	120	10.4	2.403846154	0.208333333
Energy Aura	Energize	25	120	10.4	2.403846154	0.208333333

Here's the other chart.   Look at the right column "Heal/End" and you will see that DA is the worst Heal% per point of endurance consumed.  At 2 mobs, /DA heal is only 75% as effective, per point of endurance consumed, as Electric Armor or EA heal.  But /DA heal is 10 times as effective when you want a big heal on short CD Armor set Power name Heal % Recharge End Cost Heal/end Heal/Recharge Stone Earth Embrace 80 360 10.4 7.692307692 0.222222222 Ice Armor Hoarfrost 80 360 14.56 5.494505495 0.222222222 Invuln Dull Pain 80 360 14.56 5.494505495 0.222222222 Bio Armor Ablative Carapace 30 90 10.4 2.884615385 0.333333333 Radiation  Particle Shielding 30 120 10.4 2.884615385 0.25 Fiery Aura Healing Flames 25 40 10.4 2.403846154 0.625 Regen Reconstruction 25 60 10.4 2.403846154 0.416666667 Electric Armor Energize 25 120 10.4 2.403846154 0.208333333 Energy Aura Energize 25 120 10.4 2.403846154 0.208333333 DA Dark Regen at 2 mob 60 30 33 1.818181818 2 DA Dark Regen at 1 mob 30 30 33 0.909090909 1

Edited February 27, 2020 by Obus Form
Grammar/spellingz

[eknudson]

At least IOs brought us decent knockback protection so Acrobatics isn't a requirement anymore. Just one 4 KB level of protection isn't really enough, though.

 

Compare Dark's "armor" toggles to electric, and dark's are a bit cheaper but not as good so probably fair. And electric of course has excellent endurance recovery. Fire's armor toggles are a little more costly and really a little worse-- fire laughs at fire but has a huge psi hole, but fire has Consume.  

 

Cloak of Fear is such a monster toggle to run and needs so many slots to be good I haven't had much use for it. If Dark Regeneration wasn't such a huge end cost--I'd even take a little less healing in trade. Maybe get Soul Transfer buffed so that if you use it when not dead that it gives some kind of end recovery? Of course, by level 38 I'm usually getting endurance better handled. 

[Saiyajinzoningen]

3 hours ago, Solarverse said:

And this right here is how flame wars start. You  come in with an attitude, you got attitude back, and now you want to escalate it with even further attitude, It's one thing to state your opinion. But to end sentence with, "Slot well, play well or try another powerset" is just straight up asking for it. You could have just as easily made your point without the snark.

 

As far as your point goes, it's kind of hard for a lot of players to be willing to be okay with your point since, by time most players reach the final part of their characters, (getting them IO'ed out, Incarnates) they put that character away and start a new journey with a new character, only to break out the fully IO'ed character when called upon...unless...it is their main character and they are always playing to get the next badge.

 

So saying that the build is fine once somebody is fully IO'ed out, isn't really helping. Keep it cool, man. Say your point, give your opinion, you never know, somebody might just agree with you; but adding the snark at the end is pretty much going to guarantee that whoever you're giving the crass to is only going to see the crass and not your point.

 My bad allow me to explain myself.

 

I have a level 50 savage melee/ Dark armor character whom is played exclusively red side and has done as much pre 50 content that a character could do before hitting 50 without turning off experience. Due to choosing savage melee (wisely i might add) that compliments dark armor well due to the endurance discount that comes from blood frenzy i experienced very little endurance issues leveling up. This is not only true for savage melee off of the top of my head Staff also provides and endurance discount with form of the soul. Finally the classic Dark melee has dark consumption. Any of these complimentary sets can assist with the endurance difficulties of Dark Armor. However most of the weapon sets require large amounts of endurance, coupled with dark armor you will immediately notice an endurance deficiency. These deficiencies can be alleviated with proper slotting of IO's OR by using the incarnate system. Dark Armor is not alone in its lack of endurance mitigation "shield, super reflexes, and invulnerability" all have comparatively high endurance costs to run due to this fact. If one plans carefully, epic power pools can aid with a players endurance issues. I personally, cant find a way to make shield work well for me so i avoid that powerset. Others love it and thats fine; but just because i am unable to make it work for me doesn't mean that there is something wrong with shield and that its needs some kind of fix. i apologize if my earlier response seemed terse, not every response needs a /jranger.

[Solarverse]

3 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

 My bad allow me to explain myself.

 

I have a level 50 savage melee/ Dark armor character whom is played exclusively red side and has done as much pre 50 content that a character could do before hitting 50 without turning off experience. Due to choosing savage melee (wisely i might add) that compliments dark armor well due to the endurance discount that comes from blood frenzy i experienced very little endurance issues leveling up. This is not only true for savage melee off of the top of my head Staff also provides and endurance discount with form of the soul. Finally the classic Dark melee has dark consumption. Any of these complimentary sets can assist with the endurance difficulties of Dark Armor. However most of the weapon sets require large amounts of endurance, coupled with dark armor you will immediately notice an endurance deficiency. These deficiencies can be alleviated with proper slotting of IO's OR by using the incarnate system. Dark Armor is not alone in its lack of endurance mitigation "shield, super reflexes, and invulnerability" all have comparatively high endurance costs to run due to this fact. If one plans carefully, epic power pools can aid with a players endurance issues. I personally, cant find a way to make shield work well for me so i avoid that powerset. Others love it and thats fine; but just because i am unable to make it work for me doesn't mean that there is something wrong with shield and that its needs some kind of fix. i apologize if my earlier response seemed terse, not every response needs a /jranger.

I have actually rolled a Savage Melee/Dark Armor. I have not leveled him very far, but It's good to know that it complements the set well. I kind of figured it would, but what you say confirms it for me. I tried TW/Dark once, got about 12 levels and said, "NOPE!" haha.

[Replacement]

@Obus Form Thanks, that's good stuff.  But I still cannot accept the premise of "just disable what you're not using."  Not because it's lazy, but because other sets don't need to -- I'll pre-emptively concede Ice Armor does need to early-game, and that Stone Armor is Bad™.  My issue, as I brought up in the last thread on the topic, is that Dark Armor, on a toggle-for-toggle basis, isn't getting meaningfully more than other sets.  I could forgive all of that if it didn't also have a Click that took 33.3 Endurance.

 

The other issue with Dark Regeneration is that it's... kind of too good.  With even just 1 Healing IO, 2 targets yields an 85% heal, which is realistically already later than you would be hitting that button.  You could reduce the healing potency and endurance cost by 1/3rd each and have no noticeable drop in healing power during standard play, while being far more forgiving to Endurance Bars the world over.

This discussion on Dark Armor Endurance Slurping is old as dirt.  If masses of people keeps independently arriving at the conclusion that it feels off or too punishing, at what point do you recognize that making some changes wouldn't be a bad idea?

 

[ChocolateMercenary]

What if Dark Regeneration was replaced with Stygian Circle?

Edited May 14, 2020 by ChocolateMercenary
Typed too fast, spelled too bad.

[Pzn]

1 minute ago, ChocolateMercenary said:

What if Dark Regeneration was replaced with Stygian Circle?

That would be a huge nerf

[Naraka]

On 2/25/2020 at 9:41 PM, KelvinKole said:

I'd want to see a debuff resistance added before an endurance discount. Most other sets get debuff resistance of at least one kind: Defense, slow, recovery, etc.. I think dark armor should have tohit debuff resistance. It does get some protection from end drain, which is nice given its high demands. 

I'm in agreement with this.  Having the END costs shaved would decrease the likelihood that an appreciable addition to the set could be made, like ToHit debuff resistance and maybe adding utility to Soul Drain.  That and just conforming every set to be built the same makes the sets mechanically perform the same.  As is, DA kind of already performs very similarly since it's mostly just some toggles and a click, but what you're doing while you're playing can change and how you're stacking the effects with outside buffs, debuffs and controls is the main style that makes DA different.

On 2/25/2020 at 8:08 PM, Razor Cure said:

Key phrase. Very key phrase.

Build considerations don't always require IOs though.  The powers you don't choose can also be as defining to your build as powers that you do.  You don't *have* to run Cloak of Fear and Oppressive Gloom at the same time, you can run one, the other or neither depending on how you build and synergize your powers.  I didn't take Genetic Contamination on my Bio/Fire Tanker because he mostly wasn't using it and while the -dmg would be useful, the extra damage tics go to waste because he's built to use breath attacks a majority of the time.  He kept Evolving Armor for tanking purposes though.

 

Ultimately though, I'd rather have something that I can benefit from vs having no use for and END is one of those buffs that, when on teams, is either a waste or a godsend.  I prefer things to have utility and I prefer build options to have meaning.  Just because an option is an IO doesn't suddenly put it off the table completely for consideration.  They can be a goal like getting a new power or getting a new costume option.

 

That being said, while I don't advocate for IOs to be the standard build balancing metric, I find it amusing how this is the only MMO where what amounts to as "gear" is supposed to be completely ignored...but at the same time, we're making comparisons to difficulty settings meant to be for advanced builds.  You can't isolate IOs from the discussion while also setting the bar at +3/x4 and above.