Shock/Elec, will "sapping" now be viable?

[Menelruin]

So as you've probably heard, there's a new set pending, tentatively named "Shock Therapy" (name likely to be changed due to unfortunate connotations).  There's ALSO some new IO sets added for Accurate Endurance Modification.  Between these two things, do you think it'll now be possible to floor a group's endurance fast, and keep it there?  Or an AV's?

 

Also, would an Elec/Shock troller probably be better for this, you imagine?

[Darkir]

3 hours ago, Menelruin said:

So as you've probably heard, there's a new set pending, tentatively named "Shock Therapy" (name likely to be changed due to unfortunate connotations).  There's ALSO some new IO sets added for Accurate Endurance Modification.  Between these two things, do you think it'll now be possible to floor a group's endurance fast, and keep it there?  Or an AV's?

 

Also, would an Elec/Shock troller probably be better for this, you imagine?

I doubt a controller would be better for this due to the higher debuff numbers that defenders get and the easier time getting to softcapped defense. You'll want softcapped defense because the pbaoes will be handy to help debuff end and end recov. I don't know anything about this new set, so all I can say is that if it has tools to floor end recov and take away end, then yes, this is possible. I'd love a -end recov/-end pbaoe toggle, but we'll see what happens. 

[Menelruin]

26 minutes ago, Darkir said:

I doubt a controller would be better for this due to the higher debuff numbers that defenders get and the easier time getting to softcapped defense. You'll want softcapped defense because the pbaoes will be handy to help debuff end and end recov. I don't know anything about this new set, so all I can say is that if it has tools to floor end recov and take away end, then yes, this is possible. I'd love a -end recov/-end pbaoe toggle, but we'll see what happens. 

Details on the new set here:

 

 

[Frosticus]

 

I'd be surprised if you can sap an AV dry. 

And to further move the goal posts - a +3/4 AV.

[Without_Pause]

I found sapping an AV on a Elec/kin controller rather difficult. Even on my main which was the defender version back on Live sapping AVs as always hit or miss. Maybe Shock/elec will be better, but I don't have high hopes in the days of +4 content.

[Coyote]

If you want to sap AVs as a Defender, I think you have to use Poison since its version of Poison Gas Trap does huge -Recovery. Pair it with Electric for the actual sapping and you have a chance. I don't think that the Shock set will do enough -Recovery.

 

Alternate options, that are still better than Shock on Defenders:

1: Electric/Psy Dominator. Electric Control saps better than Electric Blast, and Drain Psyche does very good -Recovery.

2: Electric/Shock Controller, again because Electric Control > Electric Blast.

 

However, I think the best bet for effective AV sapping is a Controller, Electric/Poison. Poison's huge -Recovery along with Electric Control seems like the best pairing.

[Darkir]

21 minutes ago, Coyote said:

Pair it with Electric for the actual sapping and you have a chance. I don't think that the Shock set will do enough -Recovery.

Yeah, it really looks like it is lacking in this department, especially aoe -recovery and end. I mean for a set supposedly focused in end debuffs it seems weak.

[Frosticus]

46 minutes ago, Coyote said:

However, I think the best bet for effective AV sapping is a Controller, Electric/Poison. Poison's huge -Recovery along with Electric Control seems like the best pairing.

i tried an elec/poison troller on test some time ago with this in mind. End mod slotted everything and it was still barely able to put a dent in a pylon's end.

I just slotted acc and end mod in everything, so not a super robust test mind you.

Perhaps adding an incarnate alpha and using powerboost may help.

 

I was unimpressed though and I have doubts it would do much of anything vs +lvl AVs. 

[Lobotomist]

Huh. Was poison's trap adjusted at some point? I could swear it had -1000 recovery, as the counterpart to /trap's -1000 regen. Looking at the ingame info screen it's only -100 recovery.

 

...of course I might be completely wrong.

[Coyote]

Well, if it's -100, that would explain why it would be very hard to drain. At -1000, like it had been for a long time, it really should floor the recovery of +3 AVs. But if it's been changed to -100, then you'd need to dedicate a build to it, and at that point you're probably better off going with Drain Psyche... it's easier to get its -500 almost perma than to get -100 to do enough to matter.

 

Edit: it may be worse than -100... the Poison Trap in Traps shows -1000 Regeneration FOR 10 SECONDS. The version in Poison, shows -100 Recover... but with no duration. So it may be bugged to do NO -Recovery since it doesn't specify a duration for the debuff. Ouch.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Coyote

[Doomguide2005]

I had an Emp/Elec defender build with the ability to generate a power boosted Short Circuit yielding a -200% or so recovery debuff and owing to high global recharge could fire off multiple times within 10 seconds (I want to say about every 7 seconds).  The Short Circuit did not sacrifice damage either. I'll be interested to see how that secondary build would match up paired with Shock Therapy.   

 

What would Benumb do to a +4 AV's recovery debuff resistance do?  (Thinking Cold/Elec of course)?

[Bartacus]

On 2/27/2020 at 2:34 PM, Coyote said:

If you want to sap AVs as a Defender, I think you have to use Poison since its version of Poison Gas Trap does huge -Recovery. Pair it with Electric for the actual sapping and you have a chance. I don't think that the Shock set will do enough -Recovery.

 

Alternate options, that are still better than Shock on Defenders:

1: Electric/Psy Dominator. Electric Control saps better than Electric Blast, and Drain Psyche does very good -Recovery.

2: Electric/Shock Controller, again because Electric Control > Electric Blast.

 

However, I think the best bet for effective AV sapping is a Controller, Electric/Poison. Poison's huge -Recovery along with Electric Control seems like the best pairing.

I've never played Electric Control, but I don't think Electric Blast is as bad as people remember it. The Snipe changes helped out the set immensely as far as having a good attack chain. I've been playing a Storm/Elec Defender lately and enjoying it a LOT.

[Doomguide2005]

What is the base Endurance of a lvl 50+ AV?  The number I'm thinking I remember is fairly huge.  Big enough that one tic of recovery would likely let it fire off almost any power it had available.  Haven't been able to find it yet on the Wiki.

[Coyote]

I believe AVs (all levels) have 800 Endurance.

[Bopper]

I am curious how effective Shock and possibly G.Sentinel are in sapping an AV. With shock doing -75% base for 25 seconds, and GSentinel doing 50% base for 10 seconds, it might be effective.

 

I dont know if -recovery stacks from same caster, but if it does (it does on Beta), it's reasonable to spam Shock every 4 seconds, which would get you to a consistent 6 stacks. With 100% endmod enhancement, that would turn into -150%x6 recovery from shock, which is -900%. I think Electrical Affinity has more single target sapping potential than expected. Especially since that sapping also does -150 endurance every 4 seconds.

[_NOPE_]

What are you talking about, sapping is viable NOW...

Short Circuit + Power Sink,

Short Circuit + Personal Force Field + Short Circuit

[Bopper]

6 minutes ago, The Philotic Knight said:

What are you talking about, sapping is viable NOW...

Short Circuit + Power Sink,

Short Circuit + Personal Force Field + Short Circuit

Is that enough -recovery for an AV? It'll certainly sapp a mob.

Edited March 6, 2020 by Bopper

[_NOPE_]

Oh, I didn't think about AVs. I tend to never fight them, or at least have a team by my side if I do. I can't speak to that.

[Without_Pause]

You'll need more than Short Circuit, Just going to restate what I said above. I was running on my Elec/kin controller and got nowhere on runs against a number of AVs. I don't have Power Boost, but even on my defender version back in the day with Power Boost, it was hit and miss.

[Coyote]

3 hours ago, Bopper said:

I dont know if -recovery stacks from same caster, but if it does (it does on Beta), it's reasonable to spam Shock every 4 seconds, which would get you to a consistent 6 stacks. With 100% endmod enhancement, that would turn into -150%x6 recovery from shock, which is -900%. I think Electrical Affinity has more single target sapping potential than expected. Especially since that sapping also does -150 endurance every 4 seconds.

 

It's looking like an Ele/Ele/Mu Controller should be able to sap AVs eventually. Not sure how fast it'll bottom them out, but -1000% Recovery will floor a +4(3) AV's Recovery. And you can probably get a consistent 200-300% from Gremlins/Mu Guardian, plus some from Jolting Chain, so... you should be able to stack up to -1000%. Not sure how much time you'll have to actually attack if you're spamming Shock/Jolting Chain, but it's a possibility. Especially with Musculature for increased End Mod slotting.

[Darkir]

3 hours ago, Coyote said:

 

It's looking like an Ele/Ele/Mu Controller should be able to sap AVs eventually. Not sure how fast it'll bottom them out, but -1000% Recovery will floor a +4(3) AV's Recovery. And you can probably get a consistent 200-300% from Gremlins/Mu Guardian, plus some from Jolting Chain, so... you should be able to stack up to -1000%. Not sure how much time you'll have to actually attack if you're spamming Shock/Jolting Chain, but it's a possibility. Especially with Musculature for increased End Mod slotting.

Sure or you could just hold them.

[Coyote]

15 minutes ago, Darkir said:

Sure or you could just hold them.

 

Hold.. a 54 AV? Only Dominators can do that, and not all powersets, and it requires some build trade-offs (can't slot the Hold for mixed Hold/Damage, need to take an Alpha that increases the Hold enhancement, etc). A Controller can't Hold AVs when the purple triangles are up, but it may be possible with Electronic Domination to sap them. Well, with Electric primary, also.

[Doomguide2005]

Why Hold?  (vs Immobilize).   The PToD don't provide protection vs Immobilize (or Sleep) and if sapping works a drained and immobilized AV is going to be essentially as vulnerable to our sapper as a Held one to being defeated.

[Darkir]

1 hour ago, Coyote said:

 

Hold.. a 54 AV? Only Dominators can do that, and not all powersets, and it requires some build trade-offs (can't slot the Hold for mixed Hold/Damage, need to take an Alpha that increases the Hold enhancement, etc). A Controller can't Hold AVs when the purple triangles are up, but it may be possible with Electronic Domination to sap them. Well, with Electric primary, also.

You are right, sorry, only Dominators can.

[Tugzug]

If I'm not mistaken, Endurance Drain does not actually have AT scaling, and has equal numbers across all archetypes.