Hardcore mode - die once is gameover

[MunkiLord]

23 hours ago, Obus Form said:

Someone previously suggested, and I agree, having a Hardcore mode would make the game 99.99% more interesting - forces careful selection/progression of difficulty and selection of the player's or group's mission level/team size selection, careful selection team AT/powerset composition, careful inspiration management (no longer just a tray of reds for brutes/scrappers/blappers/stalkers), and some modicum of planning when approaching mobs of certain daamage types or mobs with CC.

 

I conjecture it would have to follow the same rules as Diablo 3, where :

- Hardcore characters interact only with other hardcore characters so that all players are playing with an equal amount of risk

- Unlike diablo 3, perhaps the auction houses would be linked to non-hardcore AH to decrease system resource load and have an already seeded market in a "new hardcore world"

- Hardcore mode is rewarded for its own type of gameplay (no extra rewards/higher drop rates)

 

 

Thoughts?

 

I like this idea, except for the AH part. I think everyone using the same AH is the best way to go.

 

So long as people understood the risks I see nothing wrong with it. For example, logging out in the middle of PI and logging back in during the middle of a Rikti Raid and immediately getting defeated by a drop ship means character goes away.

 

As for people telling you it's not possible currently because of dev time, ignore that comment because unless it's a dev or admin, no random forum member speaks for them. Though I do always find it amusing when they try.

[Grouchybeast]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

Good point, a badge for the first debt might be easier then.

I wonder if it would be possible to create the badge so that it's awarded on character creation as the Never Died badge, and then changes name on the first death to the Not So Not Dead Now, Huh? badge.  (I am not good at naming badges.)  Then the hardcore characters would have something nice and shiny to mark them out rather than simply the absence of a badge.

[MunkiLord]

I do think the enter base code exploit should be addressed before any of these suggestions are implemented.

[Troo]

Death's Stranger - avoiding defeat

(it would be crazy if there was a badge that could be lost)

 

I Get Knocked Down - For first debt. Use the song's lyrics as the description

Tubthumping - Use I Get Knocked Down song's lyrics as the description

 

[MunkiLord]

Just now, Troo said:

Death's Stranger - avoiding defeat

(it would be crazy if there was a badge that could be lost)

 

I Get Knocked Down - For first debt. Use the song's lyrics as the description

Tubthumping - Use I Get Knocked Down song's lyrics as the description

 

I find these names incredibly offensive. That damn song would get stuck in my head anytime I see those badge titles. 

[Troo]

hey, you don't have to 'delete' your character but you get that label for all time. =)

 

'Chumbawamba' badge awarded! You get knocked down, but get up again, they are never gonna keep you down.

 

too fun.

[Steampunkette]

31 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

I like this idea, except for the AH part. I think everyone using the same AH is the best way to go.

 

So long as people understood the risks I see nothing wrong with it. For example, logging out in the middle of PI and logging back in during the middle of a Rikti Raid and immediately getting defeated by a drop ship means character goes away.

 

As for people telling you it's not possible currently because of dev time, ignore that comment because unless it's a dev or admin, no random forum member speaks for them. Though I do always find it amusing when they try.

For the record: I'm not saying it's impossible due to dev time.

 

I'm saying it's -such- a niche playstyle that I feel like spending dev time creating the various suggested systems to support it is a waste of dev time.

 

But the badge would be just perfect, if you ask me. Minimal investment of Dev Effort, but gives the Hardcore characters a 100% certainty of who is or isn't "Hardcore"

[MunkiLord]

3 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

For the record: I'm not saying it's impossible due to dev time.

 

I'm saying it's -such- a niche playstyle that I feel like spending dev time creating the various suggested systems to support it is a waste of dev time.

 

But the badge would be just perfect, if you ask me. Minimal investment of Dev Effort, but gives the Hardcore characters a 100% certainty of who is or isn't "Hardcore"

I know, that wasn't directed at your comment. 

[MunkiLord]

9 minutes ago, Troo said:

hey, you don't have to 'delete' your character but you get that label for all time. 😃

 

'Chumbawamba' badge awarded! You get knocked down, but get up again, they are never gonna keep you down.

 

too fun.

Look, I'm not saying you should be banned if this were to happen. But I'm also not not saying it. 

[Roderick]

52 minutes ago, Troo said:

Death's Stranger - avoiding defeat

(it would be crazy if there was a badge that could be lost)

There already is. Nine of them, in fact (Assuming that 1-9 Times the Victor still work the way they did on Live). That means that this would be a relatively low difficulty addition; most of the framework is already in place.

[Yomo Kimyata]

Based on the feedback I've seen, making this badge associated might be problematic.  I mean, the serious badgers sometimes go nuts at the even thought of a new badge that would be, in their opinion, too onerous to add to their collection.  Could you imagine if you threatened to take one away that they already had?

[MunkiLord]

Just now, Yomo Kimyata said:

Based on the feedback I've seen, making this badge associated might be problematic.  I mean, the serious badgers sometimes go nuts at the even thought of a new badge that would be, in their opinion, too onerous to add to their collection.  Could you imagine if you threatened to take one away that they already had?

This is a fair point. But the potential thread drama could keep me entertained for twenty or thirty minutes. 

[Steampunkette]

The badge would work if it was just the "Pay off 1 point of debt" badge. All the Badgers would suddenly just -get- a new badge that is largely irrelevant (And so would most others). And the Hardcore players would get their wish for a way to avoid "Honor System" hardcore.

 

Super easy, super effective.

[Grouchybeast]

4 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

The badge would work if it was just the "Pay off 1 point of debt" badge. All the Badgers would suddenly just -get- a new badge that is largely irrelevant (And so would most others). And the Hardcore players would get their wish for a way to avoid "Honor System" hardcore.

 

Super easy, super effective.

Exactly.  It would work like the 'X Times the Victor' badge someone mentioned above.

 

New character created, zero debt: awarded the Never Dead badge.

Character has at least 1 point of debt: Never Dead badge changes into the Has Died badge.

 

The badge count always stays the same, only the name changes.  And if there happen to be any DIY hardcore characters already out there, they would automatically be awarded the Never Dead badge when it went live, because they would have 0 debt.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Grouchybeast

[MunkiLord]

Debt wouldn’t work though, doesn't patrol xp protect your from debt?

[Steampunkette]

Maybe just put an Exploration Badge in every hospital in the room you teleport into?

[Grouchybeast]

35 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

Debt wouldn’t work though, doesn't patrol xp protect your from debt?

Hmm.  I guess it depends on how the game keeps track of it in the background.  I just checked with a level 13 character, and being defeated didn't count towards the 'paid off debt' badge, so it looks like at the moment the debt cancels out the patrol XP but doesn't register as debt for the badge.  That doesn't mean the game couldn't use it as a test to award the badge, though, since the debt must still be calculated.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Grouchybeast

[Tugzug]

My main group played an 8-person Hardcore challenge at one point. It's a cool idea in theory, to be sure--but then we accidentally walked into a double-spawn and lost 3 people in the same fight at a around level 14. The other 5 didn't want to go on after that...

 

I definitely think this has to be self-inflicted, as I highly doubt there would be many people interested in doing this to make it worth implementing as a feature.

[ShardWarrior]

On 2/28/2020 at 12:22 PM, Obus Form said:

having a Hardcore mode would make the game 99.99% more interesting

No, it would not.

On 2/28/2020 at 12:28 PM, Super Atom said:

So just do it?

 

You don't need the game to do it for you.

^ There you go.  Zero development time required.

[MTeague]

I don't know.  I very much enjoyed Hardcore Mode in Diablo 2 and Diablo 3, and could not take the "regular" version of either game seriously once I got used to it. 

 

I mean, sure.  It sucked to stare at the "You Have Died.  Your Deeds of Valor Shall Be Long Remembered..." screen for a lvl 84 Paladin in D2, knowing that no matter why you died, even if it was not your fault, just an internet glitch or even a power outage or even a bug in the game, too bad, that was it, that characters is forever dead, no saving throw.  But I would never have played D2 or D3 anywhere near as extensively as I did without it.   and other Survival type games, like Subnautica, or DIshonored, I very much enjoy with a One-Life-Only mode.  

 

But the game needs to be designed around such a mode for it to be viable, I think.

 

Counter-Example.  I could never ever play Fallout 4 or similar games with 1 life only.  Because the game is freakishly unfair to that concept, there are ambushes where a foe has incredibly good sight and cover and a Fat Man Nuke Launcher.  Or rooms with mines galore that are very well hidden.  The designers fully INTENDED for you to die multiple times as you play that game.  I could only really do a one-life-only playthrough by completely forsaking all character immersion and repeatedly drawing upon knowledge of me-the-player as opposed to what my character "should" know.  And that would eliminate the point of even playing that kind of game for me. 

 

I think you'd have to re-engineer a LOT of city of heroes to make it viable as a one-life-only game. 

 

Now, would I be willing to try it out?  Join a premade with one single character with other like minded folks and see how we do?   Maybe.   It would be very slow levelling and very cautious play compared to any other play anywhere else in the game, and I don't know how much people would really enjoy it. 

[ineffablebob]

On 2/29/2020 at 11:44 AM, Sailboat said:

The Iron Eagles had several 50s, including some Blasters, believe it or not.

True! My personal best in the Eagles was Ayburn, 50+3 Inv/Fire tank. She eventually met her end in the Underground iTrial, back in the days when no one quite understood how to avoid those nasty league-decimating AV attacks. Man, I miss that group. I've been thinking for a while about recreating it, maybe I'll finally do it.

[Doomguide2005]

I was in an SG similar to Iron Eagles, I believe on Justice.  Like the Eagles several made it to 50, though unfortunately my effort ended at level 20 while solo (Traps/Fire defender).  But at least it was my mistake.  I've been on a Master run when an SG mate's internet connection went bad while they were pulling one of the final 4 AV's ... and they promptly had them as a light snack.  

 

I think an SG is probably the best way to go about finding folks of like minded folks rather than use developer time to do it.  On top of the other reasons mentioned it allows the group to decide just what is allowed or not for that group as like just about anything else in life folks tend to have different ideas about what counts and what doesn't.

 

And for the really crazy 😜 how about seeing how far you can get trying to do one of each AT to max consecutively.  Any order goes.

[CursedSorcerer]

My biggest concern is that it just plain wouldn't be fun, for any game. Sure, some people might enjoy it, but others would complain about frustration!

 

Imagine this: let's say I get a character to level 49 without dying once and suddenly I get killed, and said character is DELETED! How do you think I'd feel? How would YOU feel? 

[Troo]

Hard core mode would be fun for some folks.

Of course it would only be optional and there would be no additional rewards for playing that way.

 

There are clever folks involved with the game. There are lots of ways to set something up.

For example: A temp power could be used for those wanting to play hardcore mode. Then set the parameter for the temp power to be removed.

Could even then award another temp for the defeat. It's not rocket science.

[golstat2003]

On 4/8/2020 at 2:53 PM, ShardWarrior said:

No, it would not.

^ There you go.  Zero development time required.

Pretty much this. This suggestion isn't worth the dev time when you could just do it yourself.