Rare power sets that used to be popular.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 3/14/2020 at 10:25 PM, Heraclea said:

This is what I was trying to say earlier.  Regen, with heavy investment in defense and resistance set IOs, and pool powers to boost defense, gets to be where Willpower is out of the box, without those pools or sets.  To me this suggests that it lags far behind.  It needs more base resistance, more always-on and fast acting regeneration,  or relief from the artificial lag of animation times, to enable its repertoire of self heals and trouble buttons to be actually effective in live game play. 

 

Look Im not trying to come off as combative or rude, but your kinda forcing some blunt speech. Now maybe, just maybe, your play style, your approach, just makes regen bad for you? Because seriously I have no trouble making regen viable. I consider it one of the easiest sets to level, and cheapest to make functional, as its clicks while leveling only need 2 heal and 2 recharge IOs to be useful until one is ready to invest heavily.

 

It doesnt need things like the fighting pool. Its a viable choice, as are all pool toggles because regen has high end recov making it a good platform. I favor leadership,stealth,speed,and recall friend on my Dr. character that uses regen. He can stealth, recall, has the day job rez accolade and p2w rez ready to get people up, is never the first person to die so always has a chance to use veng on an ally. Fun build, very effective, and yes because of heavy investment also while being a team build can solo a fair few AVs.

 

Sets, and how we use them can be pretty diverse. and in actual live play, more then numbers and meta metrics matter. Because buffs and how they impact teams are more multiplicative then linear, for example a scrapper that venges can add a lot to a teams over all dps when a casual/new/less developed character gets dropped.

[Heraclea]

3 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Look Im not trying to come off as combative or rude, but your kinda forcing some blunt speech. Now maybe, just maybe, your play style, your approach, just makes regen bad for you? Because seriously I have no trouble making regen viable. I consider it one of the easiest sets to level, and cheapest to make functional, as its clicks while leveling only need 2 heal and 2 recharge IOs to be useful until one is ready to invest heavily.

 

It doesnt need things like the fighting pool. Its a viable choice, as are all pool toggles because regen has high end recov making it a good platform. I favor leadership,stealth,speed,and recall friend on my Dr. character that uses regen. He can stealth, recall, has the day job rez accolade and p2w rez ready to get people up, is never the first person to die so always has a chance to use veng on an ally. Fun build, very effective, and yes because of heavy investment also while being a team build can solo a fair few AVs.

 

Sets, and how we use them can be pretty diverse. and in actual live play, more then numbers and meta metrics matter. Because buffs and how they impact teams are more multiplicative then linear, for example a scrapper that venges can add a lot to a teams over all dps when a casual/new/less developed character gets dropped.

Here is the tale of the tape.  First up is Omphale of Torchbearer, the staff/regen. full incarnate brute I made and invested rather heavily in to see if regen was viable to be ported to tankers. 

 

Resistance:

 

Defense:

 

Next up is Penthesilea of Torchbearer, a Street Justice/Willpower brute that hasn't been played all that extensively (still working on hybrid unlock) but who has also been built for toughness:

 

Resistance:

 

Defense:

 

So the Regen brute built for survival has around 62% resistance, of which 12% is actually from the secondary, with the rest from pool powers and IOs.  At best, she gets 32% defense, but she gets 0% defense from the secondary.  The Willpower brute by contrast has around 71% resistance, of which 32% is from the secondary.  She has around 27% defense across the board, of which anywhere from 4% to 15% comes from the secondary.

 

So choosing Regen automatically puts you in a 15 to 20% hole across the board compared to Willpower.  As I was saying, "Regen, with heavy investment in defense and resistance set IOs, and pool powers to boost defense, gets to be where Willpower is out of the box."

 

 

 

Edited March 16, 2020 by Heraclea

[Brutal Justice]

Seriously, that screen shot shows a fraction of the true story for both power sets.  If you look at the second to last post in that link I provided you can see just how well regen actually does with zero set bonuses.  Right on par with willpower outside of strength of will.  

 

Willpower has better sustain in a smash/lethal environment.  Outside of s/l regen has better sustain.  Two notes about the numbers showing willpower with higher peak durability than regen.  One, that’s with saturated rttc which means you’re also taking more incoming damage than a regen who is not dependent upon mob size to hit their peak.  Two, the regen peak is not calculating the use of MoG, since MoG essentially makes you immortal for 15 seconds.  MoG is calculated into the sustain of regen which is why the sustain numbers are actually higher than the peak numbers.  

[Greycat]

On 3/10/2020 at 11:15 AM, Draeth Darkstar said:

I gotta be honest, I never understood the zealous adherence to the Cottage Rule the live devs had or that the Homecoming devs have continued to uphold.

They tried breaking it once, when they were going to "redo" Patron pools, removing "unused"/"underpowered" powers and replacing them.

 

Due to the feedback, torches and pitchforks, they started adding a fifth power instead. There may have been boiling oil or tar and feathers threatened a few times, too.

[seresibyl2]

On 3/9/2020 at 12:49 PM, Menelruin said:

IMO as soon as they figure out how to do "negative knockback," FF needs to have a crush/gather power that jams enemies within a certain radius onto a single point, making it easy to herd them for other folks to blast.  They also need a sort of "Force Cage" power where you have a circle radius at an area, and any enemy who tries to cross it gets knocked back towards the middle.  Like a ring of mini versions of the Earthquake pseudopet.

Yaas

 

Let's get some Real bubble going on.

 

	Personal Force Field	1	Toggle: Self +Absorb,, +End on damage taken,
	Deflection Shield	1	Ranged, Ally +DEF(Smash, Lethal, Melee),,+Absorb
	Force Bolt	2	Ranged, Moderate DMG(Smash), Foe Knockdown
	Insulation Shield	6	Ranged, Ally +DEF(Fire, Cold, Energy, Negative, Ranged, AoE),, +End Recovery
	Detention Field	8	Toggle Ally PbAoE, Enemy Slow, Gravity/Repel towards Ally
	Dispersion Bubble	12	Toggle: PBAoE, Team +Def, +Absorb,, +Recharge
	Repulsion Field	18	Targeted AoE pet summon,, knockback to center
	Repulsion Bomb	26	Ranged (Targeted AoE), High Damage, Foe Knockdown, Disorient
	Force Bubble	32	Location AoE Toggle: Foe Repel, Knockdown, Foe -Def,

Edited March 17, 2020 by seresibyl2

[Gobbledygook]

On 3/16/2020 at 9:09 AM, Bentley Berkeley said:

Look Im not trying to come off as combative or rude, but your kinda forcing some blunt speech. Now maybe, just maybe, your play style, your approach, just makes regen bad for you? Because seriously I have no trouble making regen viable. I consider it one of the easiest sets to level, and cheapest to make functional, as its clicks while leveling only need 2 heal and 2 recharge IOs to be useful until one is ready to invest heavily.

 

It doesnt need things like the fighting pool. Its a viable choice, as are all pool toggles because regen has high end recov making it a good platform. I favor leadership,stealth,speed,and recall friend on my Dr. character that uses regen. He can stealth, recall, has the day job rez accolade and p2w rez ready to get people up, is never the first person to die so always has a chance to use veng on an ally. Fun build, very effective, and yes because of heavy investment also while being a team build can solo a fair few AVs.

 

Sets, and how we use them can be pretty diverse. and in actual live play, more then numbers and meta metrics matter. Because buffs and how they impact teams are more multiplicative then linear, for example a scrapper that venges can add a lot to a teams over all dps when a casual/new/less developed character gets dropped.

 

The area where I was forcing blunt speech was in regards to your comment on Fire Melee. 

Do I still hold to beliefs that regen is inferior, and has to work harder and invest heavier than other sets to perform on the same level?

Yes.

Did I admit in this very thread, that I should probably try it now after not having done so in such a long time?

Yes, I did. Possibly even twice. I do believe I even asked if anyone had a decent build for me to try out.

 

As you point out, your playstyle fits your Doctor character, and vice versa. 

I don't enjoy that playstyle. Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with it, everyone is entitled to play the game they think is fun. I have tried it, it's just not for me. I prefer in your face melee mayhem. As an example, I tried KM when it came out. After 12 lvls, I deleted the character, and will probably never try one again. Not until I can turn the sfx off of it. Same with Bio, the minimal fx isn't minimal enough for me. As a nurse, I see someone running down the hallway dripping purulent fluid, it makes me want to tackle them and put them in an iso-room. Mr. MRSA.

 

 

 

[Without_Pause]

On 3/16/2020 at 12:32 PM, Heraclea said:

So the Regen brute built for survival has around 62% resistance, of which 12% is actually from the secondary, with the rest from pool powers and IOs.  At best, she gets 32% defense, but she gets 0% defense from the secondary.  The Willpower brute by contrast has around 71% resistance, of which 32% is from the secondary.  She has around 27% defense across the board, of which anywhere from 4% to 15% comes from the secondary.

 

So choosing Regen automatically puts you in a 15 to 20% hole across the board compared to Willpower.  As I was saying, "Regen, with heavy investment in defense and resistance set IOs, and pool powers to boost defense, gets to be where Willpower is out of the box."

That's a lot of data to miss the actual point of Regen. How does WP do with its click heals? The point of Regen was never to have mitigation equal to others sets. The point was regen and its heals made up for its lack of mitigation.

Edited March 18, 2020 by Without_Pause

[Heraclea]

3 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

That's a lot of data to miss the actual point of Regen. How does WP do with its click heals? The point of Regen was never to have mitigation equal to others sets. The point was regen and its heals made up for its lack of mitigation.

The problem I find with click heals is that when you are in the middle of a fight and you click them, nothing happens. 

[arcanaville]

On 3/8/2020 at 8:21 AM, carroto said:

Way back in the early days Radiation Emission was very popular.  Some people refused to run hard content without one on the team.  I don't recall seeing a single one on HC.  Regen Scrappers were popular too.  I think I might have seen one since the game returned.  I'm curious what power sets are like that for you.  Those that seemed popular once but have fallen out of favor.  Also please share any thoughts you might have on why you think things changed.

 

For Regen as a set I wonder if Arcanaville might have had something to do with it.  As we came to a better understanding of damage mitigation and other game mechanics I think some of the shortcomings of the set became clearer.  I'm sure that's not the only explanation though.  There are plenty of people who don't know or don't care about game mechanics when they make their choices.

 

Probably another factor is simply that there are more sets to choose from these days, so it's only natural that we'd see less of any specific one of them.  Plus many of the new sets are strong and offer things the older ones don't.

Very late to this discussion, but I'll just say that Regen was falling out of favor before the Instant Healing change, a long time ago, and probably not because of anything I had to say directly.  Indirectly, my understanding of damage mitigation did permeate outward and cause many other people to evaluate the sets differently than originally, but you could say that about all offensive and defensive sets.  Remember that the post Perma-Elude post Perma-IH world is the majority of the existence of the game: collectively we had no idea what was what back in I3.

 

The bottom line with regen is that absent exotic mechanics, you're left with a fundamental problem.  Defense and Resistance scale, Regen does not.  Which is to say, because defense and resistance block a percentage of the incoming damage, the more damage that comes in the more damage that gets blocked.  But Regen is fixed: you heal the same amount per second no matter how much stuff is attacking you.  This makes it tricky to balance for scrappers, really tricky to balance for end game scrappers, and an absolute nightmare to balance for tankers.

 

Tankers have fundamental problems that were being discussed when the game was still live; you combine the "Tankers should soak more damage" rule with the "everyone should be able to solo at similar speed" rule, and Tankers are already a contradiction.  You add the damage mitigation that doesn't scale to the equation (which has a corollary: it has no downtime) and you have a very interesting game design problem to solve.

 

So why did Brutes get Regen, and why did Tankers get Willpower?  That's a very long story.  Short version: most people don't see Brutes the way they were originally designed, and players only got Willpower because the devs didn't understand its true power in the first place.  I know because I warned them when it was still in beta.

[carroto]

17 hours ago, arcanaville said:

most people don't see Brutes the way they were originally designed

Just to be clear on what you're saying here: I presume you mean that Brutes were meant to be the villain Scrapper analog, but players tend to see them more akin to Tankers.  I see this claim made and I wasn't privy to the devs' discussions on the matter, but I've always found it hard to believe that they meant MMs to fill the tank role given how unsuited they are to it in many ways.

17 hours ago, arcanaville said:

players only got Willpower because the devs didn't understand its true power in the first place.  I know because I warned them when it was still in beta.

On Tankers only, or all ATs?  Are you saying you would have nixed the powerset, or at least made significant changes before releasing it?

 

Also just curious on your thoughts on Regen for Tankers.  I think I can read between the lines based on what you already said, so would this be accurate?:  Regen would be so difficult to balance for Tankers, and would require so many changes, it should never be proliferated to them.  There's no reason to bother, because they already have that set: Willpower.

[Without_Pause]

On 3/18/2020 at 12:13 PM, Heraclea said:

The problem I find with click heals is that when you are in the middle of a fight and you click them, nothing happens. 

I've gotten better at it. Clicking on inspirs though. I don't know the numbers but outside out super quick deaths which are very few, it feels like all other are me sitting there clicking on one and seeing me faceplant.

[Seed22]

I think regen is pretty okay...on a stalker. But outside of them, it's simply outclassed in every feasible way, not just in-AT but in other ATs who don't even HAVE survival sets. It could use some help

[Ironblade]

21 hours ago, carroto said:

Just to be clear on what you're saying here: I presume you mean that Brutes were meant to be the villain Scrapper analog, but players tend to see them more akin to Tankers.  I see this claim made and I wasn't privy to the devs' discussions on the matter, but I've always found it hard to believe that they meant MMs to fill the tank role given how unsuited they are to it in many ways.

Yeah, you and the rest of us.  This was one of those things where the player base said, "Really?  What were you thinking?"

[cranebump]

Regards the original topic...

 

Today I ran with a good old-fashioned TP’ing Stone Tank. Haven’t seen many of these since reboot. For awhile, I thought Bio arrmor had replaced it entirely.

 

On the flip side: lots of water slingers. The color combos make me feel like I’m teaming with a crazed Jackson Pollock.

Edited March 30, 2020 by cranebump

[ZorkNemesis]

I remember making an energy/energy Blaster when that combo was flavorful (as in everyone was doing it).  Even with the knockback stigma I recall people still liked it for it's high overall damage output.  These days I hardly run into anyone with Energy Blast, not sure why either.  Sure KB can be annoying when used wrong, but it's still fun.

 

Also Stone Armor is pretty rare now.  I guess Granite's no longer the big damage tank when inventions let you tailor most defensive powersets into Granite tankiness without the speed or damage penalties.  And Ice Control was super common too, with Ice Slick being an insanely good power before Bonfire and KB>KDs took over.  It still is, but Ice's overall softer controls seem to lag behind most other control sets these days.

[carroto]

On 3/26/2020 at 3:20 AM, ZorkNemesis said:

Ice Control was super common

Was it?  I guess now that you mention it, I did see it more back in the day.  Kind of surprising because one complaint about it was that the AoE immobilize countered the KD of Ice Slick.  However somewhere along the way that got fixed, didn't it?  I seem to remember people asking for that to be changed for a long time but the devs wouldn't give in, but I think it finally did happen.  So I'd expect the set to be more popular now, not less.