Super Reflexes: Quality of Life Improvements

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

33 minutes ago, Uun said:

Hardly. It's completely superfluous the way it is. If I'm running 50-60% defense to all positions w/o Elude (on a tank), do I really need Elude for the recovery, run speed and jump height buff on a 17 minute recharge? Providing massive +def to a set that can soft cap already is silly, so I skipped the T9. I'd like to see Elude get the Meltdown/Strength of Will/MoG treatment (more modest buffs on a shorter timer) - cut the +def in half (or more) and add some combination of +res or +hp or +rech.

Yeah throw all the elude builds under the bus good plan. I myself go the ignore toggles and focus on elude route and favor it. Now as a Tank set maybe your ideas are the better path, but on scrappers sorry yeah no thanks.

[Caulderone]

Just now, Bentley Berkeley said:

Yeah throw all the elude builds under the bus good plan. I myself go the ignore toggles and focus on elude route and favor it. Now as a Tank set maybe your ideas are the better path, but on scrappers sorry yeah no thanks.

That is a very rare route to take.  Elude cannot be perma, or even remotely close.  Most folks aren't willing to stand around that long between spawns.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

2 minutes ago, Caulderone said:

That is a very rare route to take.  Elude cannot be perma, or even remotely close.  Most folks aren't willing to stand around that long between spawns.

Your wrong, one can actually get Eludes recharge so low a single phase shift will keep you safe between the down time, and thats on ones own. If you run with a time or kin you will indeed end up perma elude with ease. I actually know very few SR users who dont have elude, and do everything they can to shorten its recharge time. But again i am talking from the scrapper/brute side, not the tanker side. Which is basically what this thread is about, because SR tanks get their powers faster, and at higher%s due to being tank.

 

While I do think SR tanks have a place in the discussion, the focus of this thread is clearly on the scrapper 2ndary SR rather then the tanker main SR. And I fully agree a tank SR whose toggles easily push them into the 60s really doesnt need elude at all. IMO we may be reaching an era where more difference is needed between tank and scrapper sets that are shared. Honestly id likely give tanks an offensive T9 in their SR akin to Shields Shield charge, like the vorpal judgement. The tnak version of Flash hitting everyone to stun and disarm them. Liek isntead of a dps rush it would be a stun/imm CC rush strong enough to glue everything down and give everyone a breather.

[Caulderone]

8 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Your wrong, one can actually get Eludes recharge so low a single phase shift will keep you safe between the down time, and thats on ones own. If you run with a time or kin you will indeed end up perma elude with ease.

Recharge cap is +400%, so base recharge/5.  1000/5 = 200

So, you can't every actually perma it, but the phase shift thing I can see.

 

Given how easy it is to get any version of SR into the 50s in defense, I don't see wanting to ever have to stop every little bit.  But, that does give an option I hadn't looked at.  So, I say:  Fine, leave Elude alone.

 

There's plenty of other tweaks suggested that would work fine while leaving Elude alone.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Caulderone
speeling

[SwitchFade]

Uh, scraps rarely take elude because it's superfluous, by and large.

 

MyKat/SR has 53-57%% to positionals at all times, 49% s/l DR with 20-30% others (not including 10% scaling). Elude is unnecessary and so is a self heal. In the rare occasions where incarnate content might prove more problematic (if ever) rebirth is there. I have used it once in a year.

 

And this is without divine avalanche, the Kat party, skipped that too as it's unessential.

 

A normal day for this scrap is faceloling everything, AV's, GM's, 17 for cap...

 

This set needs no functional changes. Power reorder for AoE? Good discussion and probably a bump to 26-28.

 

Dead no vote on changing quickness.

[Bopper]

I really like the ideas offered here. The only hangups I have is the absorb mechanic being introduced. It doesn't really fit with speed. I know Reaction Time is already a power, but if it removed the Absorb, and replaced it with +move and +recharge (instead of waiting for the detoggle, which always seemed clunky), then it would feel more fitting with super reflexes.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

43 minutes ago, Caulderone said:

Recharge cap is +400%, so base recharge/5.  1000/5 = 200

So, you can't every actually perma it, but the phase shift thing I can see.

 

Given how easy it is to get any version of SR into the 50s in defense, I don't see wanting to ever have to stop every little bit.  But, that does give an option I hadn't looked at.  So, I say:  Fine, leave Elude alone.

 

There's plenty of other tweaks suggested that would work fine while leaving Elude alone.

If you go back and reread my first post, my own ideal would be to see all the current toggles turned into autos, remove the scaling DR,, replace that with heal rate boosting, and make Elude a toggle that would be only the defense and move speed buffs. IMO a set for speedster themes should be all about defense, healing though not as much as regen, and run speed, so super speed is not a must for speedsters but an option for speedster RP concepts that also need a different set other then SR for concept reasons, and recharge speed.

 

Basically to sum it up I feel SR should be toggle light, almost all autos, and it should focus on def,speed,recharge, and passive healing rate.

[mrfreedom]

Elude should look just like this.  5 min CD that can't be be reduced. (mirrors one with the shield here)

 

10% Melee def
10% Ranged def

10% AoE def
25.00%% resistance to smashing damage for 2m 0s on self unresistable

25.00%% resistance to lethal damage for 2m 0s on self unresistable

25.00%% resistance to fire damage for 2m 0s on self unresistable

25.00%% resistance to cold damage for 2m 0s on self unresistable

25.00%% resistance to energy damage for 2m 0s on self unresistable

25.00%% resistance to negative energy damage for 2m 0s on self unresistable

25.00%% resistance to toxic damage for 2m 0s on self unresistable

+ max hit points for 2m 0s on self unresistable 

18.5% Defense resist
50% end recovery

after 2m -35% end drain

[Caulderone]

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I really like the ideas offered here. The only hangups I have is the absorb mechanic being introduced. It doesn't really fit with speed. I know Reaction Time is already a power, but if it removed the Absorb, and replaced it with +move and +recharge (instead of waiting for the detoggle, which always seemed clunky), then it would feel more fitting with super reflexes.

I like to think of any Absorb mechanic on SR as a deflection or partial dodge mechanic.  A small amount of Absorb, resetting every 3 seconds, would conceptually do that.

[Drastic]

My nostalgia partial re-create (switched from katana/SR scrapper to staff/SR for monk theme-reasons) just got into the 40s, and I like the look of this! Also in the choir that finds adding absorb a little odd. (He also hit a fluke brick wall reset-and-drop difficulty-and-team-size down against some Devouring Earth who somehow all had 95% chance to hit him, which really didn't seem right, but it really also felt like a severe fluke edge case.)

 

It would take significantly more rebalancing because of weirding the probabilities, but I also like the idea mentioned earlier about making to-hit rolls pass the defense values twice--could be what Elude does instead, because of the superfluousness of how easy it is to get the defenses softcapped without..

 

And of course firm agreement that AOE defense comes stupid-late in the stock design.

 

[Uun]

6 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

If you go back and reread my first post, my own ideal would be to see all the current toggles turned into autos, remove the scaling DR,, replace that with heal rate boosting, and make Elude a toggle that would be only the defense and move speed buffs. IMO a set for speedster themes should be all about defense, healing though not as much as regen, and run speed, so super speed is not a must for speedsters but an option for speedster RP concepts that also need a different set other then SR for concept reasons, and recharge speed.

 

Basically to sum it up I feel SR should be toggle light, almost all autos, and it should focus on def,speed,recharge, and passive healing rate.

No thanks. Removing the scaling damage resistance is a non-starter. I don't think an increased passive healing rate is going to help you when a big attack gets through your defense. I'd rather be at 10% health with capped resists and pop an inspiration.

 

I think making the toggles into autos and the T9 into a toggle would be incredibly imbalanced. I'm not sure what the issue is running 3 toggles. I run those plus tough, weave and assault and have no endurance problems.

[Uun]

13 minutes ago, mrfreedom said:

Elude should look just like this.  5 min CD that can't be be reduced. (mirrors one with the shield here)

 

10% Melee def
10% Ranged def

10% AoE def
25.00%% resistance to smashing damage for 2m 0s on self unresistable

25.00%% resistance to lethal damage for 2m 0s on self unresistable

25.00%% resistance to fire damage for 2m 0s on self unresistable

25.00%% resistance to cold damage for 2m 0s on self unresistable

25.00%% resistance to energy damage for 2m 0s on self unresistable

25.00%% resistance to negative energy damage for 2m 0s on self unresistable

25.00%% resistance to toxic damage for 2m 0s on self unresistable

+ max hit points for 2m 0s on self unresistable 

18.5% Defense resist
50% end recovery

after 2m -35% end drain

I'm on board with this.

[Troo]

16 hours ago, modest said:

Recently, I've started playing older melee defense sets to relive some of the nostalgia from when CoX was live. My latest character is a Super Reflexes Scrapper. I have a few suggestions for quality of life improvements based on some problems that I have identified with the set.

 

The problems with the set that I see with the set:

1. Super Reflexes is meant to be the premier positional defense set, but it gets its AOE defense toggle at level 35.
2. Super Reflexes has three passive positional powers that provide a single positional defense. All other defense power sets offer +DEF to all (but Psi) in a single power.
3. Super Reflexes does not have any recovery or regeneration tools like other defense sets.

Okay, since there won't be such sweeping changes to Super Reflexes. What would you like your 'new' power set called?

[Obus Form]

25 minutes ago, Troo said:

Okay, since there won't be such sweeping changes to Super Reflexes. What would you like your 'new' power set called?

Superior Reflexes

[aethereal]

17 hours ago, Felis Noctu said:

Balance changes can still be QOL.

No, they can't.  The only useful meaning of "QOL" changes is, "Benefits that do not affect or only negligibly affect main combat balance."

 

Going from click mez protection to toggle mez protection?  At least arguably QOL.

 

Moving AoE defense earlier in the set purely by rearranging powers?  At least arguably QOL.

 

Introducing a new power with new significant combat functionality?  The very definition of "not QOL."

 

It'd be nice if people could stop trying to sneak balance changes into proposals for QOL just in terms of usefully labeling threads so people can know how to map their interests to which threads they read.

[modest]

57 minutes ago, Troo said:

Okay, since there won't be such sweeping changes to Super Reflexes. What would you like your 'new' power set called?

I suspect that this is an attempt at humor, but in case it isn't:

 

What sweeping changes do you see? The powers are the same. The only thing that is changing is the order of the powers to bring them in line with the power progression of every other defense set in the game.

 

The defense values are exactly the same. The defense debuff resistance is exactly the same. The scaling resists are exactly the same. The powers are the same.

14 minutes ago, aethereal said:

Going from click mez protection to toggle mez protection?  At least arguably QOL.

 

Moving AoE defense earlier in the set purely by rearranging powers?  At least arguably QOL.

I am not asking to move from click mez to toggle mez. I am suggesting that the AOE defense moves earlier in the set.

14 minutes ago, aethereal said:

Introducing a new power with new significant combat functionality?  The very definition of "not QOL."

 

It'd be nice if people could stop trying to sneak balance changes into proposals for QOL just in terms of usefully labeling threads so people can know how to map their interests to which threads they read.

What new powers do you see? There are suggestions by posters in this thread, but not in my original suggestion.

[modest]

3 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

1. SR is very late blooming. But when it does, it is a powerhouse 

 

2. SR does need a better ramp up from 12-40, as this is the area where it struggles.

I agree. It's a powerhouse in its current state that mainly needs a better power progression.

3 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

3. I will vote no on an overhaul for SR, as it is not needed. No toggles, no power changes.

I would also vote no on an overhaul. My suggestion is for a reordering of existing powers, and proliferating the powers from the Sentinel version of Super Reflexes to Scrappers, Brutes, and Tankers.

3 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

14. I would be open to power order changes, so long as they take tank SR sets into consideration. For example, tanks get AoE early, so scraps should be 3 choices after that or more. Perhaps 28?

Energy Aura, Dark Armor, Shield Defense, Invulnerability, Bio Armor, Radiation Armor, Electric Armor, and Ice Armor get their core defense powers by level 20. I think that it'd be best to follow the same progression as other armor sets.

3 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

5. Only one power change would I would vote for is replacing practiced with master from sentinel. However, I would have to be convinced, because having 20 mag protection has allowed my Kat/SR to be last toon standing and keep a group occupied and moved, to allow for them the wakie. So, this would take some selling.

I would prefer if the current Practiced Brawler skill (click mez protection) stayed in the set and was not changed. I do not want this to change.

[modest]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

I really like the ideas offered here. The only hangups I have is the absorb mechanic being introduced. It doesn't really fit with speed. I know Reaction Time is already a power, but if it removed the Absorb, and replaced it with +move and +recharge (instead of waiting for the detoggle, which always seemed clunky), then it would feel more fitting with super reflexes.

Thanks Bopper. I'm not totally sold on the absorb either. I included it because the HC team already created the power for the Sentinel version of the set.

 

I like your proposed changes.

[psilupan]

Quote

You attune yourself to the world around you, moving with preternatural speed. All enemies nearby move slowly and have reduced recharge, and you can absorb small amounts of damage every 2 seconds. When Reaction Time is deactivated, you gain a burst of speed for a short duration, increasing your own recharge and move speed.

A toggle granting stuff when it's disabled is bizarre - especially since the only time it'll traditionally deactivate is when mezzed. Seems like it should just be a click power, if that's the case, or drop the latter idea all together.

[modest]

6 minutes ago, psilupan said:

A toggle granting stuff when it's disabled is bizarre - especially since the only time it'll traditionally deactivate is when mezzed. Seems like it should just be a click power, if that's the case, or drop the latter idea all together.

I want to clarify that I did not design this power. It is an existing power in the Martial Combat power set.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

3 hours ago, Uun said:

No thanks. Removing the scaling damage resistance is a non-starter. I don't think an increased passive healing rate is going to help you when a big attack gets through your defense. I'd rather be at 10% health with capped resists and pop an inspiration.

 

I think making the toggles into autos and the T9 into a toggle would be incredibly imbalanced. I'm not sure what the issue is running 3 toggles. I run those plus tough, weave and assault and have no endurance problems.

But the underlying issue is that any kind of DR is really not something that should be part of a set called super reflexes, and meant more to reflect comic book icons like the Flash, and other hyper agility types that if they do get hit usually are hurt bad enough they need to fall back at least for a few minutes while their fast healing helps them to recover. And come on now, espeically when at top end def, its so rare for an alpha to land its something almost to look forward to just for the oh shit moment it can create. For flash thats the time to phase througha  wall etc. Which is why my speedster concept that uses SR, also has phase shift.

 

As for the whole toggle tier 9 I said myself that is a totally crazy thing but still what I think would make SR be the set its meant to be. I would btw also not give the set any resistance to slow effects, Id make slow be the sets kryptonite. Id give it no end recovery, so sappers also would be a real threat. Thus if the toggle was dropped due to being drained, while their autos would help, would still be consirably weakened. Which imo would be a  good thing and fit the flavor and theme of the concept behind the set.

 

I want sets to be beat down, and overwhelmed when facing their banes. Hence why i dont make suggestions like some here trying to basically remove every weakness and turn their favored sets into unstoppable supermen.

[Felis Noctu]

3 hours ago, aethereal said:

No, they can't.  The only useful meaning of "QOL" changes is, "Benefits that do not affect or only negligibly affect main combat balance."

 

Going from click mez protection to toggle mez protection?  At least arguably QOL.

 

Moving AoE defense earlier in the set purely by rearranging powers?  At least arguably QOL.

 

Introducing a new power with new significant combat functionality?  The very definition of "not QOL."

 

It'd be nice if people could stop trying to sneak balance changes into proposals for QOL just in terms of usefully labeling threads so people can know how to map their interests to which threads they read.

Agree to disagree on the first two.

 

Quality of Life means improving the player's experience., and neither of those dramatically affect the set's functionality. Moving the AoE earlier just means getting it earlier, which doesn't affect anyone towards late game but improves early play. Switching the clicky to a toggle removes unnecessary complexity, as the mez click is kept up in the same situations you'd turn on a mez toggle.

 

I never said new powers were QoL, you're assuming as much. I said balance changes CAN be. If a set functions better by adjusting certain factors (for instance, Elude's crash could be changed to something like Strength of Will, being less severe), then it's both a balance change and a QoL improvement. While I agree that the title of the thread is a bit misleading, the thread content itself is about a rework of the set to modernize it.

[aethereal]

1 minute ago, Felis Noctu said:

Agree to disagree on the first two.

Do you mean "agree to agree on the first two"?

[aethereal]

3 hours ago, modest said:

I am not asking to move from click mez to toggle mez. I am suggesting that the AOE defense moves earlier in the set.

What new powers do you see? There are suggestions by posters in this thread, but not in my original suggestion.

 

I know that you didn't suggest moving to click mez.  I was just giving an example of a change which is at least arguably a QOL change while affecting a combat power (as opposed to for example QOL changes that are about moving through zones easier).

 

However, you did suggest adding two new powers to SR, Enduring and Master Brawler.  Yes, I know, they exist in sentinel SR.  Adding them to other SR sets is adding new powers to those sets, and is a balance-affecting change that is not QOL.

[Felis Noctu]

1 hour ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

But the underlying issue is that any kind of DR is really not something that should be part of a set called super reflexes, and meant more to reflect comic book icons like the Flash, and other hyper agility types that if they do get hit usually are hurt bad enough they need to fall back at least for a few minutes while their fast healing helps them to recover. And come on now, espeically when at top end def, its so rare for an alpha to land its something almost to look forward to just for the oh shit moment it can create. For flash thats the time to phase througha  wall etc. Which is why my speedster concept that uses SR, also has phase shift.

You need a balance of concept vs game mechanics. Dodging attacks is a flaky and unreliable defense type regardless of the situation. Powerful when it works, awful when it doesn't. There's also ways of justifying something like scaling DR in the set. Consider that if someone who focuses on dodging attacks can't actually get fully out of the way, they're still going to do what they can to mitigate what does hit them. Grazing strikes are a key part of defense, and the more injured you are, the more you're going to focus on mitigation of anything you can't avoid. Take a punch to the chest, use its momentum to slide backwards so the hit is less severe, etc.