Force Field (Cottage Rule Needs Not Apply)

[Inheritor]

Force Field needs some form of offensive support. There is no amount of additional defensive support you could give it to make it good. Even if you gave it "all teammates are immune to damage at all times", it would still be contributing absolutely nothing to teams that don't need any additional survivability, which at endgame is most of them. Every other support set has something to contribute on offense. Even Empathy has Fortitude. Even Trick Arrow has Disruption Arrow. Force Field currently has nothing.

[Galaxy Brain]

10 hours ago, Inheritor said:

Force Field needs some form of offensive support. There is no amount of additional defensive support you could give it to make it good. Even if you gave it "all teammates are immune to damage at all times", it would still be contributing absolutely nothing to teams that don't need any additional survivability, which at endgame is most of them. Every other support set has something to contribute on offense. Even Empathy has Fortitude. Even Trick Arrow has Disruption Arrow. Force Field currently has nothing.

On the flip side, if we look at this problem from the other way we ask why do teams only need offense at end game, and is that itself an issue?

[Apparition]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

On the flip side, if we look at this problem from the other way we ask why do teams only need offense at end game, and is that itself an issue?

 

The why is easy.  IO enhancements and Incarnate powers.  Between the two, everyone has soft-capped defense or near it on their own.  Capped resistance is more difficult, but not impossible.

[Solarverse]

On 3/13/2020 at 10:48 AM, The Philotic Knight said:

That's what *I* would do, if I could redesign City of Heroes Force Fields from the ground up, with no limitations.

Mr. Philotic Knight, your Bubbler would be welcome on any of my teams anytime...with or without any possible future buffs.  🙂

[Menelruin]

You know, it's hard to conceptualize a sort of offensive buff for FF.  Is the game's code capable of any sort of counterattack or damage reflection ability?  You could have 2 buff types, one being a "spiked field" that made melee attackers take some damage back when hitting a buffed target, and the other being a "reflective field" that caused ranged attacks to potentially ricochet back and hit the target....thematically, at least. 

[plainguy]

On 3/13/2020 at 10:48 AM, The Philotic Knight said:

It's not terrible, but everything else BUT FF has gotten better over time, and FF has been hardly touched, except for the changes to how single target buffs work, and the slight buffs that Castle made to Repulsion Bomb.

 

Now, I do have my "Buff FF" thread, as I'm sure you all know. But I want to thank @Apparition for opening THIS thread for reworking the whole set. That being said, how would *I*, the resident Force Fields Guru (my former forums title on the live boards 😉 ) handle a total re-haul and revamping of the set, ignoring the Cottage Rule entirely? This is what I would do, and here's what I see for powers if I could do literally ANYTHING that I wanted. Here's the powers that I would have, in the order that I would have them:

1. Force Bubble - (Level 1) This isn't the "old Force Bubble", but rather a merger of Personal Force Field and Detention Field. It brings back the "glass dome of DOOM", but makes it a toggle that can affect ANY target. It uses the "untouchable" effect and the "cannot attack" effects, so the target cannot interact with the outside world, and the outside world can't interact with the target. Target is also immobilized. However, the target can still use abilities on itself. The toggle would have an endurance cost that would increase every second, until the field was no longer maintainable and would HAVE to toggle off, so that it couldn't be abused. You can cast it on yourself to give yourself a breather, and could potentially use Rest while inside of it. You could cast it on an AV (no accuracy check needed!) to take the AV out of the fight and give your team a break, for a while. You could cast it on an ALLY to save that ally from any incoming damage that's not already applying DoT on them (perfect pairing with a Tanker to take the alpha after they taunt or jump in?). The number of uses for this power, and the tricks you could pull off with it would be... innumerable.
2. Force Bolt -  (Level 1) A bolt of pure force. Knockback guaranteed 100% on hit (Accuracy/ToHit check still required though, like any other attack), though the KB-KD can still be applied to change it to knockdown. Tier 3 Blaster Bolt damage, and an added Disorient effect for 20 seconds. Can be a part of an FFer's standard attack chain due to the good damage output.
3. Defense Shield -  (Level 2) A merger of Deflection and Insulation Fields, provides the same level of Defense that the other two fields did, but for ALL damage types, as well as Melee/AoE/Ranged and even untyped damage (like Hamidon attacks). Makes the FFer much more popular during Hamidon raids, and missions against enemies with either untyped damage, or damage that's usually not protected against (I'm looking at YOU, negative energy!).
4. Dispersion Bubble - (Level 6) The same, but plug the Sleep hole, and add a small tick of Absorb to all allies in range every second. Not much, but it helps minimize cascading defense failure.
5. Repulsion Field - (Level 8 ) The same, but reduce the endurance cost for maintenance of the field to negligible levels so that it can be permanently on, to protect the FFer from melee attacks at all times. Same cost per "hit" of the attack when it actually hits an enemy.
6. Force Crush - (Level 12) The reverse effect of the knockback that Repulsion Bomb USED to do - instead, knocks all enemies within a certain range of the target (let's say, a range of half the size of Dispersion Bubble) in TOWARDS the target. It would use the same effect as the "first half" of Gravity control's Wormhole, without the second half, so I know the effect is already in the game. This would make the FFer the best friend of Tankers that want an easier way to gather all of the enemies, as it would LITERALLY gather them. Also does Tier 1 Blaster Bolt damage to the enemies.
7. Force Wall - (Level 18) A translucent, place-able wall of Force. Cannot be moved after it's placed. Either a toggle, or a click power with a set timed duration. Breaks Field of View for the purpose of attacks for all entities on both sides of the wall, as attacks CANNOT go through the wall, either way. Could be used while inside of a mission to "give everyone a break", or possibly used to help "herd" enemies towards a desired location by making an obstacle. Could also possibly be used for players to reach areas by jumping that they normally wouldn't.
8. Repulsion Bomb - (Level 26) Equivalent damage to a Blaster's Nuke, without the crash. Give the FF player access to a second nuke, thus substantially increasing their damage potential to add to the team. Maintain the Knockdown component and disorient component for any that survive the nuke.
9. Impenetrable Field - (Level 32) What the "old" Force Bubble should have been, a "perfect" Repel field against enemies. Half the diameter of the old Force Bubble, and enemies CANNOT push in - even AVs. Let's call it say a THOUSAND mag of Repel against non-allies, just to be ridiculous. But, as with the "new" Force Bubble, the field cannot be maintained forever, as it will have an exponentially increasing endurance cost. However, teammates can sit inside the field in perfect safety from Melee attacks, only Ranged and AoE attacks can get through. Could be used to "pin" even AVs against a wall, or make them "fly off" far in the distance. Can also be used to help cover a tactical retreat, or for the FFer to "hold the line".

That's what *I* would do, if I could redesign City of Heroes Force Fields from the ground up, with no limitations. The FFer would have SUBSTANTIALLY increased damage output, but not from passive buffs, but rather active powers/attacks, and by merging powers, we have more room for even MORE positional "tools" in the FFer's arsenal of enemy positioning tricks.

 

Wondering what is your take on this 2 years later ?

Anything you would change ?

 

 

[_NOPE_]

@plainguy I don't mean to toot my own horn, but I can't imagine any changes to what I said then. Those suggestions do the following things for the set:

 

• Merge redundant powers,
• Fortify and amplify underutilized powers, and 
• Add new powers that match the "theme" of the set and add new tools to an FFer's toolbox.

In my opinion, I think I nailed it. Now, the NUMBERS I can't speak to, I've never been a numbers guy. I'd trust the devs to figure out what those numbers need to be to make things balanced. But I think the intention is clear, and shows the necessary path forward to make FF more desirable again, especially at the higher levels.

Edited July 2, 2021 by The Philotic Knight

[Marbing]

11 hours ago, The Philotic Knight said:

@plainguy I don't mean to toot my own horn, but I can't imagine any changes to what I said then. Those suggestions do the following things for the set:

 

• Merge redundant powers,
• Fortify and amplify underutilized powers, and 
• Add new powers that match the "theme" of the set and add new tools to an FFer's toolbox.

In my opinion, I think I nailed it. Now, the NUMBERS I can't speak to, I've never been a numbers guy. I'd trust the devs to figure out what those numbers need to be to make things balanced. But I think the intention is clear, and shows the necessary path forward to make FF more desirable again, especially at the higher levels.

As a fellow fan of bubblers I must agree with a lot of what you posted. But I do have some suggestions...

Repulsion Field and Impenetrable Field kind of serve a similar purpose, which is the same problem that Force Bubble and Repulsion Field have now. So, (if this is possible) I would make Impenetrable Field only have max Repel on things already OUTSIDE the bubbles radius. Giving you the ability to essentially trap mops inside (splitting them from those outside). This gives Repulsion Field use still in keeping targets out of melee range with you (that are still in the bubble). I would also then add a minor dmg tic to Repulsion Field. Nothing huge but it makes sense if you are constantly being bombarded by waves of force to push you away, that is going to hurt a little. Maybe make it unenhanceable damage? I think this gives both Repulsion Field and Impenetrable Field extra utility, but also makes them different enough from one another that they are still both very useful together.  

I wouldn't make Repulsion Bomb a blaster level nuke, but I would greatly increase its damage from what it is now. Thus still giving the bubbler more offense than other support sets give without necessarily giving them 2 nukes. Maybe something like High or Superior level damage, but not Extreme. 

 

Lastly, without the ability to target yourself, how would your new T1 Force Bubble work if you wanted to cast it on yourself? Target nothing and it casts on user? Just thinking out loud here...or in text...

Would love to know what you think.

[_NOPE_]

4 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

Repulsion Field and Impenetrable Field kind of serve a similar purpose, which is the same problem that Force Bubble and Repulsion Field have now. So, (if this is possible) I would make Impenetrable Field only have max Repel on things already OUTSIDE the bubbles radius. Giving you the ability to essentially trap mops inside (splitting them from those outside). This gives Repulsion Field use still in keeping targets out of melee range with you (that are still in the bubble). I would also then add a minor dmg tic to Repulsion Field. Nothing huge but it makes sense if you are constantly being bombarded by waves of force to push you away, that is going to hurt a little. Maybe make it unenhanceable damage? I think this gives both Repulsion Field and Impenetrable Field extra utility, but also makes them different enough from one another that they are still both very useful together.  

 

4 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

I wouldn't make Repulsion Bomb a blaster level nuke, but I would greatly increase its damage from what it is now. Thus still giving the bubbler more offense than other support sets give without necessarily giving them 2 nukes. Maybe something like High or Superior level damage, but not Extreme. 

That's fair. Again, I'm not a numbers guy. I'd leave it to the Devs to balance that.

 

4 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

Lastly, without the ability to target yourself, how would your new T1 Force Bubble work if you wanted to cast it on yourself? Target nothing and it casts on user? Just thinking out loud here...or in text...

Precisely my thought, exactly. It may require new code/technology to be written, but it'd also open the door to other powers to have "dual purpose" like that. Target? "Trap" the target. No target? "Trap" yourself.

Edited July 2, 2021 by The Philotic Knight

[OmegaOne]

20 hours ago, The Philotic Knight said:

@plainguy I don't mean to toot my own horn, but I can't imagine any changes to what I said then. Those suggestions do the following things for the set:

 

• Merge redundant powers,
• Fortify and amplify underutilized powers, and 
• Add new powers that match the "theme" of the set and add new tools to an FFer's toolbox.

In my opinion, I think I nailed it. Now, the NUMBERS I can't speak to, I've never been a numbers guy. I'd trust the devs to figure out what those numbers need to be to make things balanced. But I think the intention is clear, and shows the necessary path forward to make FF more desirable again, especially at the higher levels.

I too would like to see some buffs to FF but combining Deflection and Insulation field into one power makes it WAY WAYYYY too good. Also - a T8 nuke in a Support set? Nah that won't fly. Repulsion Bomb does need a bit of a buff but that's going too far with it. Your proposed T9 is also too good - perfect protection from all melee attacks (the most common attack in the game) - even from AVs? Seems a bit over powered to me.

[_NOPE_]

@OmegaOne I would LOVE to have to deal with the problem of FF being TOO good, for once.

[Yellowjacket]

FF and Sonic should be the tankiest support sets, imo. That means self buffing, perhaps with adjusted numbers. FF could be unique in that it offers some decent offensive options, especially for Controllers and MMs, and it should be the undisputed king of enemy placement - an active set for those who want to go deep into it. I don't think we need to add absorb or anything, Def creep is a separate issue to tackle. Not sure any of my ideas violate cottage rule, but here's my take anyway.

 

1. Personal Force Field - Pop-up tray - Force Burst - PBAoE KD, -Def (Enhancable). Detoggles PFF. Long cooldown. Gives it a universal use for everyone that is forced to take it, and a smooth transition into combat from absorbing an alpha strike.

2. Deflection Shield - Make it PBAoE with a large radius (do the same with the sonic counterparts, maybe cold and thermal too).

3. Force Bolt - Make it two-stage damage, original minor damage then delayed damage. Bonus damage if foe is affected by Detention Field.

4. Insulation Shield - Make it PBAoE, large radius.

5. Detention Field - Ally/Enemy Toggle. Foe Capture, -Max HP (persists when detoggled). Auto detoggle after x seconds. Ally - ally's attacks have chance to immobilize + deal bonus damage. Surrounding foes are slowed with a chance of small mag immob. All affected foes are vulnerable to extra damage by Force Bolt, Repulsion Field, and Repulsion Bomb. Similar to the Grav control combo bonus.

6. Dispersion Bubble - Fine enough as-is.

7. Repulsion Field - Player location pet summon (like trip mine), can be cast in the air, has HP bar, is targetable and buffable (Ally version of Detention Field can be cast on it). Alternative would be the normal pet summon with full pet controls, but that might be a little extra. Either way I feel it's essential that you should be able to position it to stay in the air. AoE KB aura (can be enhanced to KD) minor delayed damage to affected foes. Extra damage to foes affected by Detention Field.

8. Repulsion Bomb - AoE KU. Two-stage damage like Force Bolt. Bonus damage to foes affected by Detention Field.

9. Force Bubble - Make the bubble smaller.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Spectre7878]

I love the ideas being put on the table. Here is a few of my thoughts for force fields

 

1. Personal Force Field - I feel this power is pretty good at what it does. I love standing in a mobs and not getting hit. Not sure I would really change this power. 

2. Deflection Shield - I love the idea of making this a PBAoE self and ally buff. Keep the duration and recharge close together and it’s golden. 

3. Force Bolt - I always thought this power should do more damage and maybe splash damage. Knockdown if possible. 

4. Insulation Shield - Same as Deflection Shield. 

5. Detention Field - I like detention field. Just make it so the caster can turn it off. Also lower recharge. Like how dimensional shift works. 

6. Dispersion Bubble - Toggle defense and and all forms of mez protection. 

7. Repulsion Field - make repulsion and force bubble one power. Small radius maybe same as dispersion field. Flat endurance. No per target endurance. Higher knockback. 

8. Repulsion Bomb - Lower endurance faster animantion and recharge. More damage. 

9. Implosion Field - Targeted AoE. Places a bubble around target and any foe’s inside the bubbles will get crushed as the bubble starts to shrink. Immobilized, damage. 

 

[JayboH]

I remember that the original devs said they were not going to toss absorption around as the new shiny toy as a response to people requesting it for FF - course that was a long time ago so...

 

 

I like the idea of the Implosion Field but do it as a replacement for Repulsion Field as if it was in reverse - and make it applicable to a teammate, say a tanker.

Edited July 9, 2021 by JayboH

[oedipus_tex]

I always thought Repulsion Bomb knocking stuff to the ground repeatedly for several seconds after landing made thematic sense. Something like:

• 50% chance for a mag 0.33 kb after 2 seconds
• 50% chance for a mag 0.33 kb after 4 seconds
• 50% chance for a mag 0.33 kb after 8 seconds
• 50% chance for a mag 0.33 kb after 10 seconds
• 50% chance for a mag 0.33 kb after 12 seconds
• ...

 

Or just make it a temp power applied to the target that reapplies a chance to KB every 2 seconds or however long for a duration.

[KelvinKole]

Absorption and a -repel is all the set needs, IMO. I don’t particular care where they go and will leave that to the far more qualified in this thread. Absorption just makes sense thematically and provides a much needed second layer of mitigation. -repel, like the singularity changes, is something fun and rare that also makes sense for the set. You create a collapsing field around your target that pulls surrounding foes inward.