Titan Weapons Discussion

[nihilii]

6 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Yeah you are still missing the point.

 

Its not proving the opposite because each pairing is its own synergy.

 

Past Bio, TW drops off drastically to the next pairing.

 

That should give you insight to what people are picking and why.

 

Just lumping all of TW together doesnt tell you much, kinda like lumping radiation melee and fiery aura together on brutes.

The Tanker drop between Bio and the second pick (WP) is ~13%. I cannot believe you would qualify that as "drastic". It certainly doesn't look as such compared to other melee powersets. So I can only assume you're now suddenly talking about Scrappers.

The full post you quoted looked at Tankers. The subdiscussion we were having was about Tankers and Brutes.

I acknowledged /bio is particularly broken on Scrappers several posts ago. This is not the topic, and that point isn't relevant in a look at how TW fares on Tankers.

Please argue in good faith. You can't claim data supports your ideas then handwave it all away when it doesn't turn out that way.
 

Edited March 17, 2020 by nihilii

[Infinitum]

5 hours ago, nihilii said:

The Tanker drop between Bio and the second pick (WP) is ~13%. I cannot believe you would qualify that as "drastic". It certainly doesn't look as such compared to other melee powersets. So I can only assume you're now suddenly talking about Scrappers.

The full post you quoted looked at Tankers. The subdiscussion we were having was about Tankers and Brutes.

I acknowledged /bio is particularly broken on Scrappers several posts ago. This is not the topic, and that point isn't relevant in a look at how TW fares on Tankers.

Please argue in good faith. You can't claim data supports your ideas then handwave it all away when it doesn't turn out that way.
 

Yeah but bio was already in 18th place in powersets chosen that's not what I would call popular..  Which does support not just my claim but a few others that TW plays differently across all ATs.  It indicates its not as popular on tanks as other ATs.  As I already stated too the fact that WP is the next chosen set is another correlation between TW and sets that facilitate end usage.

 

I wouldn't call number 18 very popular as it is.

 

Im not cherrypicking or hand waving data away.  I'm pointing out correlations on what people choose with TW and also that it's not the runaway option people think it is outside of bio armor Scrappers - and the reasons behind that.

 

Everything im pointing out supports that idea.

[siolfir]

Hey, it's (tied for) the least picked choice for Stalkers! 😛

[aethereal]

Even if one were to accept that TW is less popular on tanks and brutes than scrappers, there's a pretty plausible explanation in which:

 

1. People find it a difficult set to play due to momentum mechanics/high end cost/high necessary global recharge, and those who persevere are doing so because they want to put up really big numbers.
2. Those people find that the biggest numbers they can put up are through TW/Bio scrappers, and so they disproportionately push there.
3. But if TW/Bio scrappers were nerfed specifically, rather than TW in general, they would find that, whatever, TW/Bio brutes, or TW/Energy Aura scrappers or whatever is the now the next thing, and you just shift all those TW/Bio to that next thing and see a radical redistribution of what specific combos are popular without moving away from TW.

I'm not saying the above thing is necessarily true, I'm saying that looking at the specific AT/powerset/powerset numbers for popularity and saying, "Oh, this one thing is the problem" presupposes that a targeted, narrow nerf won't change the proportions of all the other AT/powerset/powerest combos, and that's not true.

 

[Giovanni Valia]

Everyone knows Titan Weapons and Bio Armor are OP. This powerset combo is just ridiculous on scrappers. I really doubt either powerset will get a nerf though considering how many players use them. The backlash would be extreme.

[Obitus]

On 3/16/2020 at 3:06 AM, nihilii said:

Considering how cumbersome TW is, I find it actually easy to read these stats as a strong signal TW is overpowered.

Yeah, TW also has limited thematic appeal in a comic book setting.  Just about all of the following sets are more comic booky, or so I would think, than weapon-that-outweighs-protagonist, or giant-sword-like-that-one-dude's-from-Final-Fantasy:

 

18 hours ago, nihilii said:

TW without Bio is still more popular than Dark Melee, Staff Fighting, Street Justice, Stone Melee, Energy Melee, Ice Melee, War Mace, Savage Melee, Psionic Melee, Broad Sword, Battle Axe, Martial Arts, Dual Blades, Kinetic Attack, Katana and Claws, and all of these WITH bio.

Bold mine.  Cloud Strife beats out Captain America, Batman, Wolverine, and the Mighty Thor in a super-hero game?

 

I'm not knocking people who enjoy TW's aesthetic, just pointing out that its popularity is surprising, suspiciously so.

On 3/16/2020 at 3:06 AM, nihilii said:

It's the #5 most popular attack powerset on both Brutes and Tankers. Out of the more popular powersets, Spines and Rad are notoriously overplayed due to AE farming, and SS is overplayed due to theme... and due to being too strong, even if we've had pages of people pretending otherwise in the temptative Rage change topics.

Super Strength is more or less in the opposite position, WRT to thematic appeal.  It will always be popular, regardless of how well it plays.  And it plays extremely well at the top end, and with supplemental pool attacks, but as a whole the set could use a fair bit of work.  Rage, specifically double Rage, is overpowered.  KO Blow and Footstomp are great powers.  Everything prior to that ranges from terrible to just decent (and it's all single target damage); players have to spend an awful lot of levels watching paint dry before they get to the good stuff.

 

TW is in a vastly different category even from Rage-stacked SS at its IO'd and Gloom-enhanced best.  For a long time I ignored TW because I just don't care for the set's looks.  I figured, yeah, it's a single-target DPS monster; who really cares?  What I didn't realize until recently is how much of that single-target DPS is also AoE, which is preposterous.

 

I understand that TW can be janky to play, but that's only further evidence that the set's current design is a poor fit for all concerned.  We shouldn't have a whole different league of performance, gated behind niche aesthetics and frustrating mechanics.  Hypothetically, if there were a powerset that performed at 300% of everything else, but required the player to suffer an electric shock every 3 minutes, the answer would be to correct both of those things, not to use one to justify the other.

[Vyx]

59 minutes ago, Obitus said:

Yeah, TW also has limited thematic appeal in a comic book setting.  Just about all of the following sets are more comic booky, or so I would think, than weapon-that-outweighs-protagonist, or giant-sword-like-that-one-dude's-from-Final-Fantasy:

There is a huge CoH lore component that is all about fantasy style characters. Just look at Cimerora. So I would disagree on that point.

 

On another note, Titan Weapons is fairly slow and does not work too well with several secondaries. This kinda makes it only played with a few like bio. So that specific set combo is broken, but I wouldn't say TW alone is. Just my experience from the builds I've made.

[aethereal]

I don't think TW needs anything other than an endurance tool in the armor set to be strong.  Lots of armor sets have endurance tools.

[Galaxy Brain]

3 hours ago, aethereal said:

I don't think TW needs anything other than an endurance tool in the armor set to be strong.  Lots of armor sets have endurance tools.

Right, in fact it's actually rare to not have an endurance tool in an armor set.

 

As detailed at the bottom of page 2, TWs issue is that even though it gets amazing damage per endurance spent, it spends endurance at a ridiculous rate.

[kenlon]

4 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Right, in fact it's actually rare to not have an endurance tool in an armor set.

 

As detailed at the bottom of page 2, TWs issue is that even though it gets amazing damage per endurance spent, it spends endurance at a ridiculous rate.

Your proposal for bringing TW back into line is probably the best starting point I've seen for rebalancing it against other sets. The devs should definitely use it as a starting point for whatever changes they make.

[Jimmy]

Moving this to the feedback forum for now as Titan Weapons isn't actually part of beta testing at the moment.

[Infinitum]

6 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Right, in fact it's actually rare to not have an endurance tool in an armor set.

Dark, invul, shield, stone, SR.

 

That's 45% on tanks that don't.

 

42% on brutes

 

36% on scrappers

[ABlueThingy]

8 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Right, in fact it's actually rare to not have an endurance tool in an armor set.

 

As detailed at the bottom of page 2, TWs issue is that even though it gets amazing damage per endurance spent, it spends endurance at a ridiculous rate.

Mmm, to go along with the "Janky" issue some people seem to have.  What if we make momentum last forever, refreshed by continuing to attack.  Same lock-out it has now if you stop attacking.  But while Momentum is on "Build Momentum" becomes... lets say "Halt Momentum" a power that boosts damage/acc and is a 25%ish end-heal.

 

Lets you have more control over when you run dry, if you mod for -end cost and +end rec you might never need to use Halt and could just momentum for ever.  Or you mod for damage/rech and just have Halt periods right at the end of a fight to catch your breath.  Maybe gives the set a few more build styles to pick from and easier to guide new players intuitively.  And less frustrating at the low levels.

 

Might have to knock some over all DPS off the top though or you might make it stupid good.

[Outrider_01]

On 3/15/2020 at 1:12 PM, ABlueThingy said:

I remember one time they changed something about Cape physics and it broke the tram system back in the live game

 

Because this

Edited March 18, 2020 by Outrider_01

[Galaxy Brain]

On 3/17/2020 at 8:50 PM, Infinitum said:

Dark, invul, shield, stone, SR.

 

That's 45% on tanks that don't.

 

42% on brutes

 

36% on scrappers

Thats mostly right, but a little off:

 

	No End	Yes End
Scrappers	31%	69%
Tankers	45%	55%
Brutes	38%	62%

 

So, you're right that its not as "Rare" as I said though in the grand scheme of all TW combinations across AT's you still get a 62% spread of combos that include End tools. 

 

Of that 62%, its about a 50/50 split (well, 52/48) between Passive +Rec effects and Active End tools too. So make of that what you will.

 

All that said, there is a decent chunk of combos out there that TW is kind of extra end hungry with (Granted this is true of all the combos with every set based on this criteria), and an end discount during momentum would help a lot.

 

[ivanhedgehog]

On 3/16/2020 at 1:22 AM, Infinitum said:

Yet it's barely in the top 10 in brute and barely in the top 20 in tanker.

 

I think one of the things you have to look at when considering the Balance of TW is it takes staying power and skill to play, because it's not a runaway favorite on anything but TW bio on Scrappers.

 

And those are facts from the march by the numbers post.

 

And even on Scrappers outside of bio it's barely in the top 20 there.

 

So basically it's not a popular set outside of 1 niche category involving bio armor.

maybe scrappers need a nerf, as that seems to be the problem area.

[Infinitum]

10 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

maybe scrappers need a nerf, as that seems to be the problem area.

Nah, I don't think that's the case at all, the problem is TW, but it's exaggerated by the bio synergy with Scrappers.

 

That's why there is so many of them, I would start there, or the +end -dmg route.

[Infinitum]

12 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Thats mostly right, but a little off:

 

	No End	Yes End
Scrappers	31%	69%
Tankers	45%	55%
Brutes	38%	62%

 

So, you're right that its not as "Rare" as I said though in the grand scheme of all TW combinations across AT's you still get a 62% spread of combos that include End tools. 

 

Of that 62%, its about a 50/50 split (well, 52/48) between Passive +Rec effects and Active End tools too. So make of that what you will.

 

All that said, there is a decent chunk of combos out there that TW is kind of extra end hungry with (Granted this is true of all the combos with every set based on this criteria), and an end discount during momentum would help a lot.

 

Crap what did I miss there?

[Galaxy Brain]

I think brute regen and ninjutsu on scrappers?

[Dz131]

TW is obviously an outlier, but only when it comes to high end builds.  You can easily fix it by nerfing the CD on follow through.  Without double followthrough in one momentum it's sustain drops quite a bit.

 

 

[ivanhedgehog]

8 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Nah, I don't think that's the case at all, the problem is TW, but it's exaggerated by the bio synergy with Scrappers.

 

That's why there is so many of them, I would start there, or the +end -dmg route.

I should rephrase...Maybe do a creative debuff to knock scrappers/brutes into the realm of possible, so as not to kneecap those that are at least mostly ok.

[Infinitum]

11 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I think brute regen and ninjutsu on scrappers?

Yep,  that was it.

[Vyx]

If we're making TW do less damage, can we at least make it to where your weapon doesn't get put away every time you try to use a clickable secondary power? 😩

Its so clunky with secondaries like rad.

Edited March 21, 2020 by Vyx

[Jaguaratron]

I would be happy with a nerf if they made the TW models sit in female avatar hands better.....

[Zeraphia]

On 3/17/2020 at 1:57 AM, nihilii said:

The Tanker drop between Bio and the second pick (WP) is ~13%. I cannot believe you would qualify that as "drastic". It certainly doesn't look as such compared to other melee powersets. So I can only assume you're now suddenly talking about Scrappers.

The full post you quoted looked at Tankers. The subdiscussion we were having was about Tankers and Brutes.

I acknowledged /bio is particularly broken on Scrappers several posts ago. This is not the topic, and that point isn't relevant in a look at how TW fares on Tankers.

Please argue in good faith. You can't claim data supports your ideas then handwave it all away when it doesn't turn out that way.
 

I'd argue that Rad may be the next pick, it can use its heal as a proc-monster immediately after momentum fall-off and use Meltdown to improve its overall damage for a good portion of itself.