Restrict Judgment powers during regular play.

[ZacKing]

4 minutes ago, Sailboat said:

you may find plenty of players who want to play their ATs and not be carried or merely a Judgment button.

the "judgement button" thing keeps getting brought up and it's nonsense every time.   to suggest all people are doing in missions is spamming judgment is stilly.  They're not. People are using other abilities while judgement is on cooldown.  it's a power just like anything else.  trying to claim people don't use anything else but is a flat out lie.

Edited April 1, 2020 by ZacKing

[Sailboat]

19 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

the "judgement button" thing keeps getting brought up and it's nonsense every time.   to suggest all people are doing in missions is spamming judgment is stilly.  They're not. People are using other abilities while judgement is on cooldown.  it's a power just like anything else.  trying to claim people don't use anything else but is a flat out lie.

Sure...and yet it's still the dominant power for spawn clearing, despite all the other powers.  That should indicate something.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

17 minutes ago, Sailboat said:

Sure...and yet it's still the dominant power for spawn clearing, despite all the other powers.  That should indicate something.

Uhm no it isnt. It may seem that way simply due to every AT having access to one, but Any AT with its own actual nuke is using it far more often, and since its pretty rare to be on a team with none of the nuke capable ATs, there is always at least one nuker with a nuke that can be used 2 to 3 times as frequently as judgement.

 

Likewise plenty of AOE heavy sets even on the non nuker ATs will be able to clear the trash minions just as fast as an actual nuker. The only meaningful threat in any group are the bosses and maybe, and I mean maybe some LTs with something atypical like  buff or debuffs that are abit above the avg trash mobs abilities. Except again maybe and I mean maybe at max dif settings where minions might live just long enough to throw a few attacks that can dent squishier builds.

 

About the only time I see constant judgement rotation at all is on mindless, non threatening, no real risk and easy reward PI council radio runs. And that is still not that common as typically not more then 1 or 2 incarnates helping PL lowbies are on such teams ime.

 

Since your hear trying to prove there is a problem, why not make a video showing how all the teams your on just judge rotate hmm? Because you and yours here are trying to prove a need to alter the game for all of us, yet besides hyperbole I have seen 0 evidence supporting your sides position.

[Dungeoness Eloora]

I have been disheartened in teams many times due to excessive use of Judgements and Lore pets. Sure, it's enjoyable to use them yourself, a lot of the time, but magnified by a 6-8 person team, and now you're left wondering if you should even bother targetting a mob in the next pack with one of your actual AT powers or not, figuring whoever's cooldown is up will just pancake everything within 3 seconds. I just think everyone should be able to feel individually powerful and contributory in a team setting, IF that's something they desire, and I feel that giving players options to better enable this goal wouldn't be a negative thing.

 

Not sure if it's been brought up in this thread yet, but why not implement more options for the leader of a team to set? The full enjoyment of this game really comes through when you cooperate with others, so let's make it a more impactful (and even RP rewarding) thing to be the team leader.

 

I would personally love to see the notoriety settings that adjust mission level and group size get a better UI. And with it, add options for the group leader to allow, or disallow, active Incarnate powers such as Judgement nukes and Lore pets. Restrictions would be off by default.

 

Everyone in the team would get a pop-up prompt, like when you have prompt for teleport enabled, when you join a team with any restrictions in place. There should also be some sort of prominent notification, perhaps in the system channel in chat, that tells you when the team leader has changed any notoriety or power restriction settings. The restricted powers would simply be grayed out and unusable, as if you were exemplaring below their level threshold.

 

Team members can make up their own minds whether or not they want a team with the given restrictions in place, and everyone involved has a better understanding of how the leader would like the given objectives to be accomplished. Tailoring your experience within the world shouldn't just be relegated to your costume and power choices. 

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, Sailboat said:

Sure...and yet it's still the dominant power for spawn clearing, despite all the other powers.  That should indicate something.

Based on what?  I have yet to be on a team where the group moves from mob to mob firing off Judgement.  People use it when it is available, just like any other power. 

[Pzn]

1 hour ago, Dungeoness said:

I have been disheartened in teams many times due to excessive use of Judgements and Lore pets. Sure, it's enjoyable to use them yourself, a lot of the time, but magnified by a 6-8 person team, and now you're left wondering if you should even bother targetting a mob in the next pack with one of your actual AT powers or not, figuring whoever's cooldown is up will just pancake everything within 3 seconds. I just think everyone should be able to feel individually powerful and contributory in a team setting, IF that's something they desire, and I feel that giving players options to better enable this goal wouldn't be a negative thing.

 

Not sure if it's been brought up in this thread yet, but why not implement more options for the leader of a team to set? The full enjoyment of this game really comes through when you cooperate with others, so let's make it a more impactful (and even RP rewarding) thing to be the team leader.

 

I would personally love to see the notoriety settings that adjust mission level and group size get a better UI. And with it, add options for the group leader to allow, or disallow, active Incarnate powers such as Judgement nukes and Lore pets. Restrictions would be off by default.

 

Everyone in the team would get a pop-up prompt, like when you have prompt for teleport enabled, when you join a team with any restrictions in place. There should also be some sort of prominent notification, perhaps in the system channel in chat, that tells you when the team leader has changed any notoriety or power restriction settings. The restricted powers would simply be grayed out and unusable, as if you were exemplaring below their level threshold.

 

Team members can make up their own minds whether or not they want a team with the given restrictions in place, and everyone involved has a better understanding of how the leader would like the given objectives to be accomplished. Tailoring your experience within the world shouldn't just be relegated to your costume and power choices. 

Having these options would be terrible.  You're going to be invited to teams that don't clearly advertise what restrictions they want to self impose.  If you don't want to use incarnate powers, don't use them.  If you don't want teammates to use them, don't team.  You don't control what you're teammates are going to do, you control who you invite.

[Burnt Toast]

7 hours ago, Sailboat said:

Sure...and yet it's still the dominant power for spawn clearing, despite all the other powers.  That should indicate something.

Have you ever teamed with two blasters? Nuke - Nuke - Nuke - Nuke. Should we also limit those or change them so they don't do nearly enough damage? My blaster does WAY more damage on his 20 second recharge nuke than even comparable to Judgement. Sure judgment CAN hit more, but the opportunity for that in a regular mission (not a farm) isn't there. If you don't like the way others play - do not play with them. If you want to run paper missions or story arcs and not have to worry about judgements... invite people who are 35-44... or ask people not to use their powers. It's only a problem if you let it be one. 

[Naraka]

20 minutes ago, Burnt Toast said:

It's only a problem if you let it be one. 

It's more like "It's only a problem in your perspective so you should overlook it".

 

But there are various other "problems" that stack one on top of another on top of another.

 

Should Blaster nukes get nerfed?  That a discussion for another topic.  The shift from crashing nukes with some special non-crashing nukes to all crashless nukes has caused an imbalance within the blast sets by itself.  It's also created a push to remove crashes from all powers.  And here we are now, with an oversaturation of buffs and AoEs that mobs can barely withstand.  "It's only a problem if you let it be one." Pfft.

[MunkiLord]

11 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

Based on what?  I have yet to be on a team where the group moves from mob to mob firing off Judgement.  People use it when it is available, just like any other power. 

This has been my experience as well. Which means the same group will often get hit by multiple Judgements at once, Which often means the next one or two spawns is Judgement free. With coordination I'm sure a team could manage a Judgement almost group, but I've never played on a team with that level of planning and coordination.

[golstat2003]

14 hours ago, Naraka said:

It's more like "It's only a problem in your perspective so you should overlook it".

 

But there are various other "problems" that stack one on top of another on top of another.

 

Should Blaster nukes get nerfed?  That a discussion for another topic.  The shift from crashing nukes with some special non-crashing nukes to all crashless nukes has caused an imbalance within the blast sets by itself.  It's also created a push to remove crashes from all powers.  And here we are now, with an oversaturation of buffs and AoEs that mobs can barely withstand.  "It's only a problem if you let it be one." Pfft.

People used to not take nukes. Yes, it's only a problem if you let it be one. The old style of COH has long passed. Time to move on.

[Blackfeather]

10 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

People used to not take nukes. Yes, it's only a problem if you let it be one. The old style of COH has long passed. Time to move on.

Personally I don't think that's entirely fair - CoH appeals to plenty of people for different reasons. If that 'old style', however that is defined, is indeed enjoyed by people, who are we to say that it's any less valid of a reason to enjoy the game than the 'new' style? Especially since the fast paced, AoE-heavy nature of the game only really manifests itself at the higher levels, when Incarnates, nuke powers, etc. become a thing.

[golstat2003]

2 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Personally I don't think that's entirely fair - CoH appeals to plenty of people for different reasons. If that 'old style', however that is defined, is indeed enjoyed by people, who are we to say that it's any less valid of a reason to enjoy the game than the 'new' style? Especially since the fast paced, AoE-heavy nature of the game only really manifests itself at the higher levels, when Incarnates, nuke powers, etc. become a thing.

That's fine. But I am leery of suggestions that push that old style back when a majority don't seem to enjoy the slower paced style. (I say that as I've yet to see anyone leave a team complaining "we are clearing mobs too fast, bye".) And as you said this is only at the higher levels. It's not even most of the game.

 

And as others have pointed out on this thread we need more than anecdotal evidence that "teams are using judgement every spawn". They're not.

Edited April 2, 2020 by golstat2003

[Blackfeather]

1 minute ago, golstat2003 said:

That's fine. But I leery of suggestions that push that old style back when a majority don't enjoy the slower paced style. And as you said this is only at the higher levels. It's not even most of the game.

 

And as others have pointed out on this thread we need more than anecdotal evidence that "teams are using judgement every spawn". They're not.

I'm curious: what was the game pacing like in this "old style" that you're describing, and what would you say caused the shift? Is it primarily just crashless nukes and Judgement powers, or other factors as well?

[golstat2003]

6 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

I'm curious: what was the game pacing like in this "old style" that you're describing, and what would you say caused the shift? Is it primarily just crashless nukes and Judgement powers, or other factors as well?

I think Inventions was what changed the game significantly, not incarnates. That and AT nukes being crashless lead to more blasters taking their nukes and using them. Perma Dom, Max Recharge, Capped Resistance, Capped Defense meant that teams were steam rolling long before incarnates came about.

 

EDIT: The old style (IMO) was waiting for someone to  "herd" or "take the alpha strike" / "tank" and then the rest of the team went to work.

Edited April 2, 2020 by golstat2003

[Apparition]

36 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I think Inventions was what changed the game significantly, not incarnates. That and AT nukes being crashless lead to more blasters taking their nukes and using them. Perma Dom, Max Recharge, Capped Resistance, Capped Defense meant that teams were steam rolling long before incarnates came about.

 

EDIT: The old style (IMO) was waiting for someone to  "herd" or "take the alpha strike" / "tank" and then the rest of the team went to work.

 

Yeah.  It is IOs and the easy access to them on Homecoming that changed the dynamic.  Much more so than Incarnate powers. 

 

I am so glad that the old style of waiting for the Tank to herd or take the alpha is dead and buried, where it belongs.  Talk about boring. 

[Burnt Toast]

7 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

Personally I don't think that's entirely fair - CoH appeals to plenty of people for different reasons. If that 'old style', however that is defined, is indeed enjoyed by people, who are we to say that it's any less valid of a reason to enjoy the game than the 'new' style? Especially since the fast paced, AoE-heavy nature of the game only really manifests itself at the higher levels, when Incarnates, nuke powers, etc. become a thing.

Exactly who is forcing you to play differently? When I want to do certain content... I lead a team. The tool there to customize how you want to play is already there. If you don't want people to use incarnates... form a team of like minded people - apparently there are some like minded people out there. So instead of asking to change a system... use the tools you already have to play the way you think is best.

Edited April 2, 2020 by Burnt Toast

[Ruin Mage]

I have one last thing to say about threads like these:

Stop trying to force modern MMO ideology/mindset onto a game from 2004.

Stop.

You make my small brain hurt.

[Apparition]

Yep.  I sometimes form up SFs and specifically mention while recruiting and just before we start that it will be a steamroll run.  No stealthing.

 

If someone does stealth, I give a warning.  If it occurs again, then one star the player followed by /kick. 

 

There is no reason at all that others can't do similarly for Judgement powers or what have you. 

[Naraka]

3 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

That's fine. But I am leery of suggestions that push that old style back when a majority don't seem to enjoy the slower paced style. (I say that as I've yet to see anyone leave a team complaining "we are clearing mobs too fast, bye".) And as you said this is only at the higher levels. It's not even most of the game.

 

And as others have pointed out on this thread we need more than anecdotal evidence that "teams are using judgement every spawn". They're not.

I've seen plenty of people leave because "they can't keep their eyes open".  Likely not because everything is "too fast" or even "too boring" but I've also rarely seen someone leave specifically because the team is clearing mobs "too slow" so your assumption of me advocating for slower gameplay is off as well.

 

The point I was making isn't that we needed old crashing nukes back, it's that suggestions are constantly pushing the opposite.  My position is "Why? We're already moving fast enough, far faster than necessary, actually."  Or if you took your statement's opposite perspective: I'm not advocating for slower gameplay, you're just asking for faster gameplay.  With regards to the whole Judgement suggestion, I'm only speaking in hypotheticals ("If the live devs had kept the game going longer, they'd probably have started looking into ways of curbing power creep") and I'm not actually suggesting HC team to do this primarily because they have no means of monetizing the game anyway....

 

As for my perspective as a whole, do you disagree that there are various little problems that stack on top of other problems to make a larger issue overall?

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

I've seen plenty of people leave because "they can't keep their eyes open".  Likely not because everything is "too fast" or even "too boring" but I've also rarely seen someone leave specifically because the team is clearing mobs "too slow" so your assumption of me advocating for slower gameplay is off as well.

 

The point I was making isn't that we needed old crashing nukes back, it's that suggestions are constantly pushing the opposite.  My position is "Why? We're already moving fast enough, far faster than necessary, actually."  Or if you took your statement's opposite perspective: I'm not advocating for slower gameplay, you're just asking for faster gameplay.  With regards to the whole Judgement suggestion, I'm only speaking in hypotheticals ("If the live devs had kept the game going longer, they'd probably have started looking into ways of curbing power creep") and I'm not actually suggesting HC team to do this primarily because they have no means of monetizing the game anyway....

 

As for my perspective as a whole, do you disagree that there are various little problems that stack on top of other problems to make a larger issue overall?

No I'm not. I'm advocating for no changes at all to incarnate powers, period.

 

Folks pushing the idea that judgements are used every mob have yet to show that's a fact. 

 

Suggestions for limits on incarnate powers need to show an actual justification with data.

 

Seeing as how only the devs have access to that data, we'll all just have to agree to disagree.

[Alchemystic]

Is this still going?

10 pages in... what more could possibly be said by this point? 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Blackfeather]

5 hours ago, Burnt Toast said:

Exactly who is forcing you to play differently? When I want to do certain content... I lead a team. The tool there to customize how you want to play is already there. If you don't want people to use incarnates... form a team of like minded people - apparently there are some like minded people out there. So instead of asking to change a system... use the tools you already have to play the way you think is best.

Since when did I say I was forced to play differently? Please don't misconstrue my post as disliking how the game is, or disliking Incarnates. I'm not even asking the system to be changed. All I said was that it's unfair to dismiss others for enjoying a different style of gameplay that some parts of the game offers.

[Naraka]

5 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

No I'm not. I'm advocating for no changes at all to incarnate powers, period.

 

Folks pushing the idea that judgements are used every mob have yet to show that's a fact. 

 

Suggestions for limits on incarnate powers need to show an actual justification with data.

 

Seeing as how only the devs have access to that data, we'll all just have to agree to disagree.

Well who is best to provide the data you want?  The person defending keeping everything as it is or the person who avoids the content like you initially suggest?  I only have to prove incarnate powers invalidate many aspects of team play as asserted by the meta-game build direction.  Then the argument goes toward what to do about it and what requires less manhours to make.

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, Naraka said:

Well who is best to provide the data you want?  The person defending keeping everything as it is or the person who avoids the content like you initially suggest?  I only have to prove incarnate powers invalidate many aspects of team play as asserted by the meta-game build direction.  Then the argument goes toward what to do about it and what requires less manhours to make.

the only folks who have the data are the devs. Neither of us do. Us arguing back and forth will be pointless. We can agree to disagree. I say that judgment isn't used every mob, you say they are. 🤷‍♂️

Edited April 3, 2020 by golstat2003

[Cybot X-22]

If judgement is wiping everything out, then crank up the difficulty. Can't take the heat? Then get out of the kitchen. There are already some tools for dealing with this. But I agree. The team lead should have the option to to tick a box for incarnates, Yes / No on Sub 50 content. 50 and up, no dice. Deal with it.