Restrict Judgment powers during regular play.

[Replacement]

6 minutes ago, Noyjitat said:

No, no and NO! You don't want incarnates? Then instead of restricting everyones gameplay that you don't like request a new difficulty option that disables incarnate powers just like when you set a timer for a tf or when you increase your difficulty to +4. Don't nerf incarnates.

Read, read, and READ!  

 

OP just wanted something that decreases their usage slightly.  Everything about your post is everything wrong with this thread.

[Noyjitat]

3 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Read, read, and READ!  

 

OP just wanted something that decreases their usage slightly.  Everything about your post is everything wrong with this thread.

I did read and I know what the next request will be and what this thread over all translates to and this is still a flat out no, No and NO!

Edited March 31, 2020 by Noyjitat

[Replacement]

9 minutes ago, Noyjitat said:

I did read and I know what the next request will be and what this thread over all translates to and this is still a flat out no, No and NO!

Was adding this as an edit when I saw your response come in:

 

I decided I should explain: you're only responding to the thread title.  If you had read the OP, you would have seen they just want you to have to "charge it up" and even left the best-case cooldown completely untouched.  This is not even similar to your verbiage about assuming people are trying to get rid of Judgement nukes.  

 

As for "I know what the next request will be"... judge people for the crimes they have committed.  Your shutting down arguments that aren't even being made?  Waste of text.

 

Final note: I'm sorry this is targeted at you.  All the opposition in this thread has been *targeting the title* and assuming the worst case scenario.  You're just the latest in a 9-page long line of knee-jerking.

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by Replacement
Updated my quote with your edit. I still try to be polite when I can be.

[golstat2003]

35 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Was adding this as an edit when I saw your response come in:

 

I decided I should explain: you're only responding to the thread title.  If you had read the OP, you would have seen they just want you to have to "charge it up" and even left the best-case cooldown completely untouched.  This is not even similar to your verbiage about assuming people are trying to get rid of Judgement nukes.  

 

As for "I know what the next request will be"... judge people for the crimes they have committed.  Your shutting down arguments that aren't even being made?  Waste of text.

 

Final note: I'm sorry this is targeted at you.  All the opposition in this thread has been *targeting the title* and assuming the worst case scenario.  You're just the latest in a 9-page long line of knee-jerking.

 

Errr no. It's perfectly fine to say you don't agree with any changes being needed for incarnate abilities. A position I agree with.

 

EDIT: To be clear. I don't think a charge up is needed at all for Judgement powers.

 

If folks are so worried about incarnate abilities then they should INSTEAD be advocating for new content built for incarnate abilities. Which is precisely what other threads on "difficulty" and "optional new content modes" are correctly doing.

Edited March 31, 2020 by golstat2003

[Galaxy Brain]

On 3/27/2020 at 3:45 PM, Chris24601 said:

We DO have numbers. Let's look at them. My source is the "Homecoming Statistics: March 2020" thread in General Discussion;

 

Players have created 1,207,409 characters on Homecoming and there are 115,559 level 50 characters (of which 40,399 are fire aura brutes) if you total up the numbers from the table for number of 50s by AT.

 

That's just 9.6% of all characters created including the farming brutes that are level 50. If you exclude the likely fire-farming brutes the number drops to just 6.2% of all created characters. The number of those 50's with more than the alpha slot (vs. parked shortly after 50 because the Alt-itis is STRONG) is nowhere near 100%. Asking the people who have access to the statistics might be interesting.

 

Reasonably, the number of non-farm judgement+ incarnate characters is less than 5% of the total... right in line with the PvP community numbers back on live. The number with all six slotted with all t4s is probably less than 1%.

I was able to dig deeper into this thanks to the same post here:

 

 

Short answer, is if everything is divided equally we could assume that 62% of accounts have a lvl 50 character.

 

Of those that are incarnate? Unknown but by sheer numbers it must be way more than 5%

 

[golstat2003]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

I was able to dig deeper into this thanks to the same post here:

 

 

Short answer, is if everything is divided equally we could assume that 62% of accounts have a lvl 50 character.

 

Of those that are incarnate? Unknown but by sheer numbers it must be way more than 5%

 

I would be shocked if it's just 5%. Not with the amount of incarnate content I see each night on Excelsior. 

[Obitus]

On 3/26/2020 at 10:43 AM, oedipus_tex said:

My personal feelings are probably different from the playerbase at large. For me, though, f I logged in tomorrow and Judgment and Lore pets were gone it would probably improve my feelings about the game. I'm not emotionally attached to either power. In fact I resent them, because they feel like temporary powers, I rarely put much thought into which one to pick, and they are more powerful than the powerset and archetype choices I labored over. 

 

I also wouldn't complain if Judgement and Lore only competed with each other and you had to pick between a Judgment blast or Lore pet but couldn't slot both at one time. 

 

Destiny is a bit trickier because it patches holes in some characters and players have built their whole characters around it. But, if they eliminated the top effect and just kept the lingering effect (+5 Defense from Barrier for example) I'd be fine with it. FWIW that's how far I feel Destiny missed the mark. +5 Defense for 2 min would have been very powerful, we didn't need the huge defense and resistance buff at the start of the power.

 

The Alpha slot I think is fine.

 

Interface is also fine.

 

Hybrid is problematic because of the one that does double damage. That one really should be a flat damage proc. Doubling damage is rarely a good idea. At most, this power should provide a low chance to crit (5% or so).  

Oedipus sums up my feelings on the matter.  I don't think Incarnate powers' availability will or should be significantly changed at this late date, but it's worthwhile to discuss how exactly Incarnate powers affect gameplay.

 

What's interesting is that there's almost an inverse relationship between Incarnate powers' usefulness to the individual, and their ability to trivialize content:

• Judgment has a 90-second timer and has just enough oomph to clear even-con minions.  On its own, this isn't a game changer; solo players probably just treat it as gravy or flavor - but put 8 Judgments on a team and suddenly most normal AoE powers feel superfluous.
• Lore has ten minutes of downtime for every 5 minutes of pet goodness.  These pets can put out obscene DPS, but the recharge timer encourages solo players to ration their use.  You can't use them, for example, to raise your difficulty settings on a consistent basis.  The pets are also quite likely to die if you're a solo player facing large spawns of foes.  In teams, none of these caveats apply; 8 Lore-wielders means an average of 2.67 Lores deployed at any given time.

Destiny is probably the closest thing we have to a power that is both strong enough on its own for individual players to plan around, and yet also scales well in teams; we all know that CoH has always heavily favored stacked buff/debuff - but even stacked Destinies don't come close to the visceral qualitative effect of stacked Lore and Judgment, in large part because Destiny doesn't really offer much in the way of stackable offensive strength.  Sure, you can stack Ageless for copious +recharge and +recovery, but there are limits to how much practical benefit you can get from either. 

 

All of the other Incarnate powers, Alpha, Interface, Hybrid are strong on an individual basis - arguably much stronger than Judgment or Lore - but they're little more than noise at scale.  The same thing is true of IO set bonuses, which can increase the overall strength of an individual build immensely (mostly via +DEF and +recharge), but a team of eight IO'd builds doesn't drastically increase kill speed over and above the average team's at the same level.  An extremely well tuned IO build can allow one or two players to carry a team, and that's huge, but those benefits don't scale up in the same way that Lore and Judgment do.

 

One little note/correction:  Assault Radial Hybrid does not double damage.  What it does is rather complicated; this thread describes it in detail - but for our purposes it's fair to say that T4 Assault Radial adds slightly more damage than a single purple damage proc would.  Half of the time.  It's strong, particularly in short-term DPS tests (e.g. Pylon runs), but it isn't that strong.   Reactive's DoT (at T3+) adds probably about the same amount on average, given that it has no downtime.

[Black Zot]

2 hours ago, Replacement said:

Read, read, and READ!  

 

OP just wanted something that decreases their usage slightly.  Everything about your post is everything wrong with this thread.

 

Everything wrong with this thread is that it exists in the first place.  You can put all the qualifiers and spin on it you want, the OP is asking for Judgement to be nerfed.  PERIOD.

 

There's nothing to clarify or discuss.  /jranger

[Replacement]

49 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

 

Everything wrong with this thread is that it exists in the first place.  You can put all the qualifiers and spin on it you want, the OP is asking for Judgement to be nerfed.  PERIOD.

 

There's nothing to clarify or discuss.  /jranger

So if it dealt 1 point less damage than it does now, you would be against it? If it had 1 second longer cooldown?  I'm not talking about "waste of time to implement."  I'm asking you directly: would you be infuriated at this on the basis that it is a nerf?

[Naraka]

2 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

If folks are so worried about incarnate abilities then they should INSTEAD be advocating for new content built for incarnate abilities. Which is precisely what other threads on "difficulty" and "optional new content modes" are correctly doing.

That is only a relevant option if doing so (adding incarnate content) locks incarnate abilities out of normal content in some way.  Making more incarnate content doesn't actually help players that simply want to enjoy the non-incarnate content with less cheese and cookie cutter builds.  But the point isn't to eliminate cheese or cookie cutter builds and team but rather not make such as prevalent as it currently is and the way to do that is still merely a topic to be discussed and elaborated on.

 

That being said, you said a charge mechanic isn't needed for Judgement powers.  Care to elaborate?  Exactly why do you think it's not needed?  And saying "Judgement nukes aren't all that important overall to a character's DPS" isn't really answering the question.  Should a power like Judgement just be free chicken for extra damage?  Should we just start giving out more damage?  Or should we start putting conditions on them?

[Black Zot]

18 minutes ago, Replacement said:

So if it dealt 1 point less damage than it does now, you would be against it? If it had 1 second longer cooldown?  I'm not talking about "waste of time to implement."  I'm asking you directly: would you be infuriated at this on the basis that it is a nerf?

 

Again, there is NOTHING to clarify or discuss.  You're asking for a nerf.  There is nothing in this game that needs to be or should be nerfed.  Period. 

 

The suggestions forum is for ideas to ADD stuff, not take it away.

[Naraka]

4 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

 

Again, there is NOTHING to clarify or discuss.  You're asking for a nerf.  There is nothing in this game that needs to be or should be nerfed.  Period. 

 

The suggestions forum is for ideas to ADD stuff, not take it away.

Well, you're wrong...but it's your opinion so have at it.

[srmalloy]

4 hours ago, Replacement said:

OP just wanted something that decreases their usage slightly.  Everything about your post is everything wrong with this thread.

But you notice that the threads like this never start out with "I don't like being able to do this; make a change so I can't do it as much", and instead start out with "I don't like it when other people do this; make a change so they can't do it as much" -- they're not asking for the change to control themselves, they want the change imposed on everyone else just because they don't like it.

[Noyjitat]

18 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

But you notice that the threads like this never start out with "I don't like being able to do this; make a change so I can't do it as much", and instead start out with "I don't like it when other people do this; make a change so they can't do it as much" -- they're not asking for the change to control themselves, they want the change imposed on everyone else just because they don't like it.

I couldn't agree more.

[0th Power]

1 hour ago, Black Zot said:

 

The suggestions forum is for ideas to ADD stuff, not take it away.

You can add a nerf. 

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Black Zot said:

The suggestions forum is for ideas to ADD stuff, not take it away.

No, it isn't. The suggestions forum is for suggestions, whether additive, subtractive, or just change for change's sake, and discussing those suggestions.

[Display Name]

Can we add a feature that will restrict silly requests like this?

[0th Power]

2 minutes ago, Display Name said:

Can we add a feature that will restrict silly requests like this?

Restrict opinions?

 

/jranger

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Black Zot said:

 

Again, there is NOTHING to clarify or discuss.  You're asking for a nerf.  There is nothing in this game that needs to be or should be nerfed.  Period. 

 

The suggestions forum is for ideas to ADD stuff, not take it away.

Happy Gotime yay yay comments only!!

 

[Replacement]

1 hour ago, Black Zot said:

 

Again, there is NOTHING to clarify or discuss.  You're asking for a nerf.  There is nothing in this game that needs to be or should be nerfed.  Period. 

 

The suggestions forum is for ideas to ADD stuff, not take it away.

This is so assumptive, dismissive, and logically unsound.  So yeah, you clarified plenty for me.  Enjoy your world where the original devs never ever ever made a mistake.  

[Display Name]

1 minute ago, 0th Power said:

Restrict opinions?

 

/jranger

Not at all.  But turning off something "you" (the OP) doesn't like comes across extremely wrong.

 

Maybe if the OP went to the General forum and asked HOW to have fun while surrounded by Judgement, the message would come across as anything other than the standard "whiner" celebrating their "victory" over "those d**** farmers" by requesting ANOTHER, even MORE crippling nerf.

[0th Power]

But the OP wasn’t turning it off, merely making a suggestion.  Saying that we should be limited in what we can suggest is as bad (or worse imo) than suggesting something that would be unpopular. 

 

for the record, I still think anyone should be able to suggest anything that doesn’t break the code of contact, including suggesting a limit on suggestions (I wouldn’t want to be a hypocrite 😁)

 

speaking of hypocrites, I reminded myself of one of my favorite jokes:

 

There are three types of people that I hate
1. hypocrites

2. narcissists
3. people who don’t realize how great I am

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

If you take away something from a power, but add another thing of equal value to it, is it nerfed?

[Sailboat]

Seems to me the OG devs were fine with nerfing Controller powers by halving the effect and doubling the recharge because they were making things too easy.  And Controller powers, being primary,  are waaaay more important than Incarnate fluff.

 

In addition to the power creep, there's also the "homogenization," as was pointed out by others early on.  All characters are just another recharging nuke, AT doesn't matter.

[Sailboat]

To offer a specific long-term suggestion,  perhaps disable the higher Incarnate powers in non-Incarnate content.  Short term, form teams expressly excluding those powers in your invites-- you may find plenty of players who want to play their ATs and not be carried or merely a Judgment button.