Restrict Judgment powers during regular play.

[Darkneblade]

Seriously they need to restricted on regular play it makes things less fun on groups because someone always using it. Make it so you can accumulate charge for judgment powers during gameplay instead. Recharge will stay same (was it 2 min?) and greatly reduces rate of accumulation when it is on recharge so you can't always use it as soon as available.

Tankers accumulating charge when taking damage or evading(?) and dealing damage.
Brutes primarily dealing damage and taking damage and evading(?).
Scrappers dealing damage and evading?
Blaster's dealing damage or when their hp gets really really really low they will get bonus to accumulation.
Sentinels : Dealing damage while taking damage? or using their inherent for whatever they doing.
Controllers : Mezzing and debuffing while minor accumulating for damaging attacks?
Dominators : Mezzing and dealing damage?
Stalker : Burst damage and defeating or damaging targets while hiding. 
Corruptor : Dealing damage while debuffing. Scourge can also accumulate charge.
Defender : Buffing allies and debuffing enemies while dealing damage? (why is everything is damage?!)
Mastermind : Minion damage(lol) while debuffing targets. 

As for VEAT's I don't have any info on them I rarely see one on groups usually.

Edited March 25, 2020 by Darkneblade

[SwitchFade]

I'm very sorry but I cannot support this.

 

Hard no vote.

[Ruin Mage]

Doesn't work like that.

No.

 

[Burnt Toast]

No thanks.

 

Not sure why people think it's a good idea to suggest... that others should be less powerful because they don't like something.

 

Don't want people to use Judgment on your teams - lead a team... and say - no Judgment - tada. 

 

[MTeague]

I sympathize with the original poster in that, I hate the 45-50 run when everyone else is judgmenting and using lore pets and if you're still levelling up, you are of ZERO use to the team, you are being CARRIED, plain and simple. Now, I've never seen a team that minded that. No one ever said "hey lowbie, pick up the pace" to a lvl 47 character of mine.  People are not being jerks.

 

But because of this, I simply no longer join teams that are doing 46+ content until I am 50 and incarnated up. Because it drives me crazy to know I'm being completely carried whether or not anyone is saying anything. It's a personality thing probably. But it's there in me and not going away. 

I'll still join 1-45 teams.  I'll still get exp, and then I can level up to 50 in a manner where I feel like I'm making some contribution. 

 

But I think that's really got to be the solution here. Not to take powers away from other people but just to use some judgement in which teams you join and which teams you pass on.

Edited March 26, 2020 by MTeague

[Sif]

The devs really should have continued with how the leveling system worked up to then, and restricted "traditional" level 50 content to Alpha, with each level of incarnate content allowing the tier that came out with it (and earlier) + the next one, rather than screwing up the balance of the old lvl 50 content. This would make it more practical to keep content balanced, allow you to feel more powerful in the content as you've gone up. Restricting 2 of the level shifts wasn't enough.

 

Probably far too late to even consider such a change now.

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, MTeague said:

But I think that's really got to be the solution here. Not to take powers away from other people but just to use some judgement in which teams you join and which teams you pass on.

The thing is, this is likely already the case with many that like more "standard" balance.  It's just that, once you get to a certain level and set of content, it's harder to vet such teams to the point that such players just don't team in that level range at all or only to obtain certain rewards.  I mean, imagine starting a level 49 team and as the team leader dictating to everyone "don't use any incarnate powers or you're kicked".  It's pretty dickish and likely will get you unneeded drama.

 

To those that prefer the standard balance, it's like having a whole block of content just blocked off from playing.

 

A possible option might be to give the team lead the option of disabling specific post-50 abilities although having a kind of "charge" mechanic that exhausted some of your incarnate power when not facing worthy foes sounds like a mechanism that the live devs would have eventually sought to curb the creep as it would still allow the players to use these abilities just not at once, requiring more consideration before using them.

[oedipus_tex]

I'm sympathetic to the OP. I remember the game before and after Lore, Destiny, and Judgement, and frankly I miss it.

 

I do think the Alpha slot is well designed and adds a lot of strategic depth to the game.

 

I don't know what the solution is here. Possibly a new variety of Task Force where that gives better rewards but these powers are restricted? I have no idea how involved that is. 

 

It makes me slightly sad that new players never got to see the game in the pre-incarnate stages. I do agree with the OP that those powers detract from the game. I used to be a team player but I've lost interest in teams because its just too easy. I'm not super gunho about just removing them, altho if I was running my own "hard core" rules server I probably would. I suppose its up to the philosophy of the developers.

Edited March 26, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Galaxy Brain]

36 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I do think the Alpha slot is well designed and adds a lot of strategic depth to the game.

I agree, Alpha and Hybrid are actually well designed in that they have a more subtle effect and are actually strategic. The others? They're all just flavors of I win buttons and it sort of sucks the fun out of many encounters unless I'm using my max recharge blaster to out-nuke judgements.

[golstat2003]

Yeah no. They should not be removed. or restricted

Edited March 26, 2020 by golstat2003

[summers]

I very much miss the days where T9s weren't crashless and Judgements weren't around. Debuffs mattered. Control mattered. Powers other than nukes, mattered. The incredible recharge rates now allow for a great deal of nukes to go off at every spawn (I'm aware Judgements aren't affected, but T9s and similar are!), and I find that to be unsatisfying. As food for thought, using Judgements alone, a team of 8 can use one Judgement every 11.25 seconds in rotation.

 

But, I don't think I can say to just take them away. They're in whether I like it or not.

 

EDIT: Since we're in a suggestion forum, I'll throw in my own, off the cuff ideas:

Judgements: Increase recharge (5+ minutes) so that a team of 8 isn't hitting every spawn with them.

T9s: Increase recharge and/or make them unaffected by recharge (or global recharge). Return a 'cost' to them - a crash, a HP loss, something that causes a player to balance the decision to use it rather than just a free mob wipe. The better designed nukes IMO are the mini-ones, such as Hail of Bullets, Full Auto, etc.

Edited March 26, 2020 by summers

[Blackfeather]

Hmm...maybe the option to allow players to self-exemplar themselves down to level 44 might be a neat idea when they're doing missions in the 45-50 bracket.

[Haijinx]

Judgement powers were a bad idea.  So were most incarnates.

 

Incarnates should all have worked in ways akin to the alpha slot.  Increasing the power of your build, not giving you unbalancing powers.  

 

But oh well.  Too late now.   Ship has sailed on the water under the bridge we burned down when we got there. 

 

 

[Parabola]

Yup, the incarnate system was badly designed. Allowing everyone access to nukes, pets and big buffs just served to homogenise the AT roles and unbalance the high level game as there was nowhere to go with the difficulty curve (particularly with the level shift in regular content - what were they thinking?!). Turning everyone into a tankmage can be individually fun but it's bad for the game. All imo of course :).

[Saiyajinzoningen]

ugh i hate to agree with the OP's suggested nerf. but yeah everybody nuking all the time kinda trivializes the game. 

[Blackfeather]

49 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

ugh i hate to agree with the OP's suggested nerf. but yeah everybody nuking all the time kinda trivializes the game. 

There's definitely a difference between "feeling powerful" and "being overpowered to the point of feeling unchallenged/useless".

[Obus Form]

 

8 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 They're all just flavors of I win buttons and it sort of sucks the fun out of many encounters unless I'm using my max recharge blaster to out-nuke judgements.

So judgemental.

[Apparition]

You are perfectly capable of forming teams with a "No Judgement, no Lore, no knockback, no Dispersion Bubble, and no Hail of Bullets" rule if you so desire. 

 

For better or for worse, the Incarnate abilities are in the level 45+ game to stay. 

Edited March 26, 2020 by Apparition

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

First, ever on a team with a couple blasters with their nukes recharge at 30 seconds or so? Yeah next to that a team full of judgement isnt that impressive. Likewise lets see its only from 45-50 exemped incarnates get access to their powers. Most folks I know wont even try shadow shard TFs if at least a few full incarnates are not on the team to help speed it up. I cant even think of content that is drastically impacted by going incarnate, but I suspect that has to do with the way i build my toons.

 

IME people like the OP here are really QQing over nothing, because odds are they will be dead weight for most teams with competent builds and players behind those builds. Because lets face it, what the OP is really saying is he feels useless as a moderate DPS build, that offers no utility or support to the team, so they are pissy about feeling useless because they build to be a one trick pony, and then found out their pony wasnt the Black Stallion.

[Galaxy Brain]

 

The biggest takeaway IMO is that feeling when you are close to 50 on 50 teams, and experience the significant gap. Unfortunately as other have said, the genie is out of the bottle more or less in terms of altering Judgement / Lore / Destiny without probable huge backlash. Heck, I was on an ITF yesterday with my lvl 48 blaster, with minimal IO slotting (90% generics, 1 perf shifter, a few force feedbacks and that's about it) and managed to keep up but had several others talk about how they would have rather played their decked out incarnate characters to make the mission easier / keep up with the incarnate team members. The sentiment is definitely there in the Incarnate's favor in that people do enjoy being more powerful, but then again it is so easy to achieve that it creates a false sense of what the game actually is about.

 

🤷‍♂️

[Galaxy Brain]

5 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

DPS build, that offers no utility or support to the team, so they are pissy about feeling useless because they build to be a one trick pony, and then found out their pony wasnt the Black Stallion.

Luckily, you too can be a good DPS and Support build with Judgement, Lore and Destiny! 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Luckily, you too can be a good DPS and Support build with Judgement, Lore and Destiny! 

If only that was true. It is said the power of an Incarnate can make a bad build functional, a poor build decent, an average build ok. But a good build is good no matter what you put on top of it.

[Ruin Mage]

The problem with the Incarnate System is that the future Incarnate content got put to a dead halt with shutdown.
Remove the Incarnate powers, and you still have people blazing through content.
The problem isn't powers. The "problem" is that the game has been figured out head to toe. Numbers crunched.

These sort of suggestions are just like throwing darts at a very tiny dartboard and hoping it sticks.

[MsSmart]

Sorry sweetie, but folks worked hard to get it, so I can not agree to this suggestion.

 

For what it is worth, if you do not appreciate the additional firepower, for whatever reason, when you form the group make it a rule that no judgment or incarnate powers be used. When I lead a team, I usually put rules such as no one goes hunting until all other group members has zoned in.

 

Hugs

 

Sue

[Super Homer]

Honestly: incarnate powers royally messed up the game.

 

An RPG should give players a feeling of progression, this power giving us the power to complete things that could not be completed before. Content should raise up to that power increase, else there is no point. This worked fine as players leveled up, did more damage, got more powers, and enemy HP increased on a faster curve than player base damage (to make up for more offensive tools in player hands.)

 

But as soon as we get incarnate powers, all that goes out the window because enemies can no longer scale properly.

 

I know making new content is hard, but the game would be at a way better place if incarnate levels were just levels. 

 

Alpha = lvl 52

Hybrid = lvl 54
Interface = lvl 56
Destiny = lvl 58
Judgement = lvl 60
Lore = lvl 62

 

Yes, I know that's not the current acquisition order, just the order I feel reflects progression best.

 

This lets normal sidekick rules naturally restrict leveling, and make level 60+ content actually have so much HP you NEED everyone in the party to have judgement.