LRM Rocket... Munitions Mastery

[RelicBlade]

This pool is desperately in need of buffs. People have discussed it before; Body Armor is inferior to every other armor in every way, it being an auto is irrelevant in today's late game game play. The hold sucks and is inferior to char in every way. Sleep is a niche tool, I'm not saying to drop it, but consider something else. Surv is decent, but maybe consider extending the duration? Lastly... LRM Rocket. This power is a joke, and always has been. Is it satisfying as hell to use? Yes. Is it actually impressive? No, in fact it is one of the worst powers of all epic pools, imo. It needs buffed. Maybe... Lower the recharge, raise the damage significantly, eliminate the interrupt time, and slightly lower the cast time. 

Who else agrees that Munitions Mastery needs buffed?

[plainguy]

Post this in the suggestions forum if you want any traction at all.

 

[r0y]

On 3/27/2020 at 2:38 AM, RelicBlade said:

...
Who else agrees that Munitions Mastery needs buffed?

Probably very few, as we're all so used to skipping it, we just don't think about it anymore.

 

I once took it on an AR/Dev blaster for theme reasons.  Quickly swapped for Scorpion Shield and never looked back.  I think everyone does it once, then that's it.  They move on and the set is forgotten.

[RelicBlade]

On 3/27/2020 at 2:10 PM, plainguy said:

Post this in the suggestions forum if you want any traction at all.

 

Noted. I'm a casual forum user, I thought this might be a good place to start. Thanks!

 

15 hours ago, r0y said:

Probably very few, as we're all so used to skipping it, we just don't think about it anymore.

 

I once took it on an AR/Dev blaster for theme reasons.  Quickly swapped for Scorpion Shield and never looked back.  I think everyone does it once, then that's it.  They move on and the set is forgotten.

I took the pool on my beam/dev just to have it.. and it is ultimately unused outside of Surv. It's a self nerd, lol.

[plainguy]

21 hours ago, r0y said:

Probably very few, as we're all so used to skipping it, we just don't think about it anymore.

 

I once took it on an AR/Dev blaster for theme reasons.  Quickly swapped for Scorpion Shield and never looked back.  I think everyone does it once, then that's it.  They move on and the set is forgotten.

Very True.

 

You get range defense cap and a decent number to Smash and Lethal Defense with AR/Device/Mace Mastery.  You have enough attacks with AR and even with Device.. Why would you want Munitions. 

[DR_Mechano]

13 minutes ago, plainguy said:

Very True.

 

You get range defense cap and a decent number to Smash and Lethal Defense with AR/Device/Mace Mastery.  You have enough attacks with AR and even with Device.. Why would you want Munitions. 

Taking it purely for theme since my character is based on Crash from Quake 3 Arena and thus a certain other particular character

 

Thus having LRM plays into the 'classic FPS' style even if it doesn't make sense.

 

However yes Munitions Mastery is one of the weakest APPs/PPPs on blaster and could do with a rather large upgrade if I'm honest.

[RiotAce]

On 4/1/2020 at 12:26 AM, DR_Mechano said:

Taking it purely for theme since my character is based on Crash from Quake 3 Arena and thus a certain other particular character

 

Thus having LRM plays into the 'classic FPS' style even if it doesn't make sense.

 

However yes Munitions Mastery is one of the weakest APPs/PPPs on blaster and could do with a rather large upgrade if I'm honest.

Hell yea man! I've got crash-style costume on my blaster. Q3A was my jam!

[ScarySai]

Personally, would like to see munitions get a lot of offensive buffs that make it an offensive powerhouse, making up for it's lackluster defense. LRM getting a massive CD reduction in line with other nukes would be pretty rad, cryo ray getting some more damage/slow baked in, sleep grenade becoming a rain-like gas grenade instead. Just a lot of fun toys in line with the theme.

 

 

 

 

[Novacat]

It's not just LRM. Body Armor was already by far the worst of all the epic pool armors back when being an auto-power that won't toggle-off the moment anything hits you with anything of any magnitude ever meant something. Back when your endurance was in the dumps from no IOs or Sustains if you held some toggles.

 

Now, it's not only the lowest (on average less than half the values) of any of the epic resistances, it's also covering one or two TYPES less than the others as well:

Body Armor: Resist 8.75% S/L

Dark Embrace: Resist 19.25% S/L, 10.5% Negative/Toxic

Frozen Armor: Defense 10.5% S/L, Resist Fire 7% Cold 21%

Charged Armor (both sets): Resist 19.25% S/L/Energy

Fire Shield: Resist 19.25% S/L, 14% Fire, 7% Cold

Temp Invulnerability: Resist 21% S/L

Shark Skin: Resist 19.25% S/L/Cold

Scorpion Shield: Defense 10.5% S/L 7% Energy, Resist 12.25% Toxic

 

So even Temp Invulnerability, which also has just Smash/Lethal and which no one takes because no one takes Force, is 2.4x as effective. Meanwhile Charged Armor offers 2.2x the resistance, but also applies it to Energy - another common lategame damage type.

[UltraAlt]

On 3/27/2020 at 5:38 AM, RelicBlade said:

Who else agrees that Munitions Mastery needs buffed?

 

I never found it to be all that bad, but I never crunched the numbers.

The thing about LRM rockets is the range. It comes with lots of range from the get go.

 

The big letdown for me about it is finding out ::

 

 

 

[Crysis]

On 3/31/2020 at 2:51 AM, r0y said:

Probably very few, as we're all so used to skipping it, we just don't think about it anymore.

 

I once took it on an AR/Dev blaster for theme reasons.  Quickly swapped for Scorpion Shield and never looked back.  I think everyone does it once, then that's it.  They move on and the set is forgotten.

 

Absolutely this.  You take it for theme and that's it.  Otherwise, utter garbage relative to just about any other, and every other, choice you could make for a Blaster.

 

Honestly, for a Blaster, there's little reason to choose anything other that Scorpion Shield.  It's just that much better than all other choices.

[arcane]

I love Munitions Mastery as is. Every power but the Sleep Grenade can be highly effective in the right hands. Maybe that can too but I don’t use sleeps.

 

Surveillance is definitely the most meta-relevant reason to pick the pool. -res and Achilles’ Heel slottability are both things many blasters lack. I use this when I really want to max out S/T DPS. Works wonders with Beam Rifle. It’s more than “OK” - it can put a serious dent in your AV/pylon/etc kill time.

 

Cryo Freeze Ray is a hold with a longish recharge. Holds with longish recharge are exceptional S/T damage when slotted appropriately for procs with maximized proc rates - we all know this, nuff said. I use it to shore up my Assault Rifle’s weakass S/T damage.

 

Body Armor is fine as auto. It fills out a special niche that way.

 

LRM Rocket requires two things to be effective: (1) extra damage. For that activation time, you want a nuke. Easy. Slot it with procs and it will be  basically nuke-level damage. (2) time to hit a mob before everything is dead. The key is NOT to be dumb enough to use this on the mob your team is fighting. Use it on the next one or something. A 2nd nuke is not a bad thing to have if you know how to use it. The amount of buffs the OP suggests for it is ludicrous. One of those things, sure, but certainly not two or more.

Edited January 15, 2022 by arcane

[Qabal]

19 hours ago, arcane said:

I love Munitions Mastery as is. Every power but the Sleep Grenade can be highly effective in the right hands. Maybe that can too but I don’t use sleeps.

 

Surveillance is definitely the most meta-relevant reason to pick the pool. -res and Achilles’ Heel slottability are both things many blasters lack. I use this when I really want to max out S/T DPS. Works wonders with Beam Rifle. It’s more than “OK” - it can put a serious dent in your AV/pylon/etc kill time.

 

Cryo Freeze Ray is a hold with a longish recharge. Holds with longish recharge are exceptional S/T damage when slotted appropriately for procs with maximized proc rates - we all know this, nuff said. I use it to shore up my Assault Rifle’s weakass S/T damage.

 

Body Armor is fine as auto. It fills out a special niche that way.

 

LRM Rocket requires two things to be effective: (1) extra damage. For that activation time, you want a nuke. Easy. Slot it with procs and it will be  basically nuke-level damage. (2) time to hit a mob before everything is dead. The key is NOT to be dumb enough to use this on the mob your team is fighting. Use it on the next one or something. A 2nd nuke is not a bad thing to have if you know how to use it. The amount of buffs the OP suggests for it is ludicrous. One of those things, sure, but certainly not two or more.

 

Body Armor is pretty weak since blasters sustain better than any other AT.

 

Cryo is a hold.  It's not a great hold, but 4 Basilisk's Gaze for 7.5% recharge is nice.

 

Sleep Grenade is pretty much useless.

 

Surveillance is great as it is.

 

LRM Rocket doesn't have particularly good numbers outside of range.  That said, I planned on taking Munitions solely to get LRM Rocket until I found out that not only does it use an assault rifle to fire it as opposed to the rocket launcher used by the Council, but it doesn't even show a weapon at all if you're using Dual Pistols.  Even if it had better numbers, that last part is unforgivable.

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

It could use some work. The one redeeming feature of Body Armour is it doesn't take up any END, but is otherwise weak. Liking Surveillance very much. LRM could benefit from having the quickfire option applied to other Sniper attacks on offer. 

[Crasical]

It's underwhelming, yeah. I have it on my Beam/Energy blaster, Cosmic Cow, for concept reasons. Surveillance is good, Sleep Grenade and Freeze Ray are solid Fine (Though, honestly? I've always wondered why something as high-tech as a freeze ray was included in the pool that's Modern Soldier Things.). People have already covered this, but with Sustain powers, Blasters are now very unlikely too notice or care about about the weight of an extra toggle, making Body Armor a liability. And the LRM is just a hot mess, even loaded with an IO set. As it stands, I think it could use even higher damage (turning it into a second nuke, albiet one with a lengthy recharge and windup), or reclassifying it as a snipe despite its AoE and letting it be quick-fired in combat.

[Sirius.Games]

Idk timeline wise but nerfs/buffs has happened to primary and secondary power sets depending on usage and utility. I imagine the epics will get a pass at some point but are lower priority than primary and secondary set defining things more.

 

 

 

[Novacat]

On 1/14/2022 at 7:21 PM, arcane said:

Body Armor is fine as auto. It fills out a special niche that way.

In the sense of "it is an auto-power and should remain one" I agree, but not in the sense of "it's fine as is because it is auto".

Auto-powers are not quite as special as back when they came out - by the time IOs first became a thing, to say nothing of the Incarnate system, we were far better capable of reducing and recovering the costs of defensive toggles. So it's an issue of "this is far too penalized for what it is". This is compounded here where being held won't drop all your defensive toggles.

 

Body Armor could use a little catching-up. I'm not saying it has to be as good as the gold standard of auto-powers; Bane Spider Armor... but right now all the other epic pool defenses are ALSO "stronger IO mule that's easy on the blue bar and doesn't get turned off".

Quote

LRM Rocket requires two things to be effective: (1) extra damage. For that activation time, you want a nuke. Easy. Slot it with procs and it will be  basically nuke-level damage. (2) time to hit a mob before everything is dead. The key is NOT to be dumb enough to use this on the mob your team is fighting. Use it on the next one or something. A 2nd nuke is not a bad thing to have if you know how to use it. The amount of buffs the OP suggests for it is ludicrous. One of those things, sure, but certainly not two or more.

I would say several, just not fully each one. If I remember my numbers right, just on recharge/damage, calculated at half the actual recharge "because epic pool", for 240s (thus 120 for the formulas) the LRM should have a base damage around 305 unmodded. Obviously this would be too damaging (puts overcharge to shame) but also still too long and unwieldy. Best to bring it a little bit from several aspects rather than one big fix then.

 

Give it a base of 175 damage, recharge 160s, and drop the animation time to 3.5s with 2s interruptible.

That would leave it slightly weaker than the recharge formula would suggest for the new "80" second timer, and well below real nukes, while still offering a useful long range opener or followup to slow snipes. It would still be "below standard" according to the math, but I doubt anyone would call it a trash heap or overpowered then.

[DarionLeonidas]

On 3/27/2020 at 5:38 AM, RelicBlade said:

This pool is desperately in need of buffs. People have discussed it before; Body Armor is inferior to every other armor in every way, it being an auto is irrelevant in today's late game game play. The hold sucks and is inferior to char in every way. Sleep is a niche tool, I'm not saying to drop it, but consider something else. Surv is decent, but maybe consider extending the duration? Lastly... LRM Rocket. This power is a joke, and always has been. Is it satisfying as hell to use? Yes. Is it actually impressive? No, in fact it is one of the worst powers of all epic pools, imo. It needs buffed. Maybe... Lower the recharge, raise the damage significantly, eliminate the interrupt time, and slightly lower the cast time. 

Who else agrees that Munitions Mastery needs buffed?

Agree 100%.
Thematically it's very valuable, and I recall it was much better back in Live; when you could actually see the launcher!