Difficulty in CoH: Community Discussion

[Lines]

10 minutes ago, Snarky said:

So you never did the Trial in the Hollows "Cavern of Transcendance" where you had to click 8 glowies at the exact same time.  (thankfully the Homecoming team changed that) Because that was both boring and annoying.  But that is what you want?

I would 100% love to have the option to do it that way back. And no mission tp.

 

The trial is a joke now.

[Peacemoon]

2 minutes ago, Lines said:

I would 100% love to have the option to do it that way back. And no mission tp.

 

The trial is a joke now.

Yes I soloed it on my controller, and he didn’t even have IOs 😆

[Snarky]

The current teams solitting is just a new iteration of ROFLSTOMP teams strategies of leapfrogging each other during content. It is just spread out more now. In hard content teams used to naturally split into smaller groups as the secondary tank would jump into the next group to either cluster them waiting for the team or because they had a long recharge power come up they were itching to use on a fresh spawn.  What you are seeing is definitely not caused by incarnate powers.  

[Snarky]

Hey. Why dont you ask for them to set up an SO only server with no incarnate system?  Then you would have the game of your dreams

 

or better yet make an SG where that is how you play. That is the games greatest strength. You can play it the way you want to play

 

the problem, as i see it, about this thread is trying to build consensus to change the game so that everyone plays it....the way YOU want to play it. No thanks

Edited March 30, 2020 by Snarky

[Galaxy Brain]

I've played the trial back in the day and that was obnoxious. 

 

I'm not asking for that degree of separation, but in my observation over the last week of pugging across random level brackets I noticed there was universally only one thing that really caused trouble: team split. Objectively, teams are strongest when you are all together attacking up damage and buffs/etc. If an 8 man team is split into 2 4 man groups, objectively they are not as strong and thus content is harder. It could be 1% more difficult sure, but it would be more difficult.

 

As for the SO only server, not my bag. I like the way IOs (which have been the norm far longer than SOs) and Incarnates have added to the game. I just think they added a bit too much in how it lets you vastly tip scales. We can either tone those back, or add in new 'challenging' stuff and both options would cause firestorms.

 

 

[Peacemoon]

8 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Hey. Why dont you ask for them to set up an SO only server with no incarnate system?  Then you would have the game of your dreams

 

or better yet make an SG where that is how you play. That is the games greatest strength. You can play it the way you want to play

 

the problem, as i see it, about this thread is trying to build consensus to change the game so that everyone plays it....the way YOU want to play it. No thanks

Not everyone is trying to build a consensus to get rid of incarnate abilities. It is just a discussion about the game’s difficulty with peoples thoughts and ideas. Incarnates only effect the 45-50 bracket anyway.
 

There have been many ideas on how to create optional extra challenges for those that want them without effecting the default game (mine were as such). Or people suggested a compromise whereby incarnates were limited but the alpha slot would be usable at all levels (I’m not in favour of this either but for different reasons). 
 

I don’t think you need to label everyone in such a negative way. 

 

[Lines]

10 minutes ago, Snarky said:

the problem, as i see it, about this thread is trying to build consensus to change the game so that everyone plays it....the way YOU want to play it. No thanks

 

The solutions are way more about increasing the options and diversity of difficulties and challenges in the game.

 

A lot of people love the game, including the roflstomp endgame where most of these discussions are most opposed. I want to see changes in that area, but I wouldn't want anything taken away from those who love it.

[Galaxy Brain]

Agreed, I would rather have new modes or just new content to run with than to nerf anything. Though, it is quite a task to create modes that would be worth doing and also capable of making fully decked out characters pause.

[Peacemoon]

23 minutes ago, Lines said:

 

The solutions are way more about increasing the options and diversity of difficulties and challenges in the game.

 

A lot of people love the game, including the roflstomp endgame where most of these discussions are most opposed. I want to see changes in that area, but I wouldn't want anything taken away from those who love it.

Yes I think the best solution would definitely be

towards the ‘challenge modes’ solution to unlock harder versions of existing content. This way

a) everyone currently enjoying can continue to do so.

b) people who want to do ‘hard mode’ stuff can. Even if it were less efficient in terms of merit/time.

c) as long as there were no unique rewards no one would have to if they didn’t want to.

d) more ways to play and enjoy the game we all love. 
 

Also let’s just say something pro IOs. They made the game much more interesting and enjoyable. Before IOs came out slotting just SOs became quite boring. With set bonuses and the rest it really gave the game that extra level of depth it needed. If we didn’t have IOs it would be nowhere near as fun or customisable as it currently is. Yes a side effect was it made the game easier by empowering player characters who delve into IOs, but it was a price worth paying definitely.

 

Plus CoH has always had overpoweredness. The first powers to get a nerf were Tankers with Fire Aura. They would round up half a map, literally, and herd the mobs into a burn patch where they would all die. That power got nerfed many times. Mobs didn’t use to try run out of burn patches either! Anyway my point is, there is a lot of flexibility on character power levels In CoH and on the whole it’s what makes the game great. So I for one would not be asking for any of that to be changed! 

Edited March 30, 2020 by Peacemoon

[Peacemoon]

8 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Agreed, I would rather have new modes or just new content to run with than to nerf anything. Though, it is quite a task to create modes that would be worth doing and also capable of making fully decked out characters pause.

There is the ‘no enhancements’ challenge mode currently for ouroboros. Of course that is the sledgehammer approach - it’s a bit of a shame to spend all that time gearing up your character if the only challenge mode would be to negate them all. Of course, if it were just one option of many...
 

I haven’t tried the buffed enemies/debuffed players option yet. Running the two at the same time would probably cause a lot of difficulty. I’ll have to give it a go sometime on an ouroboros story arc. 

Edited March 30, 2020 by Peacemoon

[Galaxy Brain]

17 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

Yes I think the best solution would definitely be

towards the ‘challenge modes’ solution to unlock harder versions of existing content. This way

a) everyone currently enjoying can continue to do so.

b) people who want to do ‘hard mode’ stuff can. Even if it were less efficient in terms of merit/time.

c) as long as there were no unique rewards no one would have to if they didn’t want to.

d) more ways to play and enjoy the game we all love. 
 

Also let’s just say something pro IOs. They made the game much more interesting and enjoying. Before IOs came out slotting SOs was quite boring. With set bonuses and the rest it really gave the game that extra level of depth it needed. If we didn’t have IOs it would be nowhere near as fun or customisable as it currently is. Yes a side effect was it made the game easier by empowering player characters who delve into IOs, but it was a price worth paying definitely.

 

Plus CoH has always had overpoweredness. The first powers to get a nerf were Tankers with Fire Aura. They would round up half a map, literally, and herd the mobs into a burn patch where they would all die. That power got nerfed many times. Mobs didn’t use to try run out of burn patches either! Anyway my point is, there is a lot of flexibility on character power levels In CoH and on the whole it’s what makes the game great. So I for one would not be asking for any of that to be changed! 

QFT

 

IOs are still an amazing positive part of CoH. It's just unfortunate that they sort of got funneled into "slot for defense and recharge and you win" and the effect that has on gameplay. If anything, buff some of the weaker IO bonuses so that becomes something to shoot for and increases diversity!

 

A challenge mode I would argue should be better for merits/time than the normal roflstomp. The caveat of course being it is harder and more dangerous to attempt. 

 

The fire tank herding could be allegorical to what others experience today. That playstyle and strategy took away from other players even if the individual fire tank was having fun. Imagine going into a zone to have it be totally empty of mobs cus some other player rounded them all up and defeated them. Or joining a team where everyone doorsits because a tank is doing similar. In today's game, being on a team with somebody decked out who could just solo the whole thing anyways feels bad as they often could just run ahead and brute force a mission that you all would play together.

 

That is why things should get nerfed, when they are powerful to the point of stifling enjoyment for others. 

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Peacemoon]

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

A challenge mode I would argue should be better for merits/time than the normal roflstomp. The caveat of course being it is harder and more dangerous to attempt. 

 

 

And the added risk of failure, whereby people quit and you just can’t carry on with only 2-3 of you. Once upon a time I remember most TFs ended in failure 😆

Edited March 30, 2020 by Peacemoon

[Blackfeather]

5 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The fire tank herding could be allegorical to what others experience today. That playstyle and strategy took away from other players even if the individual fire tank was having fun. Imagine going into a zone to have ot be totally empty of mobs cus some other player rounded them all up and defeated them. Or joining a team where everyone doors it's because a tank is doing similar. In today's game, being on a team with somebody decked out who could just solo the whole thing anyways feels bad as they often could just run ahead and brute force a mission that you all would play together.

I agree with that viewpoint. Certainly it's all well and good to feel powerful, but in a way, that's almost an argument to keep an eye on how the game's difficulty looks. When some kinds of characters outshine others to the point that it prevents others from feeling powerful/useful as well, there's clearly something that needs to be looked at there.

[ShardWarrior]

I think the game is fine as is in terms of difficulty.  With that said, I would be all for content specifically designed for and balanced around fully kitted Incarnates.

[Rathulfr]

On 3/29/2020 at 11:00 AM, Coyotedancer said:

Yes. A lot of very vocal forum users are... But us forum users have NEVER been a good representation of the "average" City player. That was true back in the Live days (and mentioned pretty frequently when discussions about changing game balance came up-) and I'd be beyond shocked if it didn't still hold just as true today. Just because the game is a cake-walk for most of us doesn't necessarily mean the same is true for Joe Anybody with his first-ever Corruptor, who avoids game forums on principle, has never seen MIDS and is running on a mish-mash of SOs and what-ever-he-got-as-drops.

 

Players like that exist. 

There are a lot of them.

They have a very different experience of the game's difficulty than we do.

 

And if you ever have any doubt of this, you should spend some time in one of the numerous Facebook groups dedicated to CoH.  There are times when I simply smack my head at some of the basic questions I see there, but then I remind myself that not everyone is a 15 year veteran of the game with a dozen level 50 characters, like I am.  What seems obvious and easy to me is not necessarily easy or obvious to most other players.  And that just makes the game more appealing to me: it's enjoyed by all kinds of people in all walks of life, from literal children and up to retirees.

 

(edit) Case in point:

 

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by Rathulfr
Added screenshot.

[Galaxy Brain]

2 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

 

And if you ever have any doubt of this, you should spend some time in one of the numerous Facebook groups dedicated to CoH.  There are times when I simply smack my head at some of the basic questions I see there, but then I remind myself that not everyone is 15 year veteran of the game with a dozen level 50 characters, like I am.  What seems obvious and easy to me is not necessarily easy or obvious to most other players.  And that just makes the game more appealing to me: it's enjoyed by all kinds of people in all walks of life, from literal children and up to retirees.

 

If you wanna have a fun time, look at FB each tuesday

[Rathulfr]

12 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

If you wanna have a fun time, look at FB each tuesday

Oh yes.  I spend most of Tuesday copying and pasting links to the status page or patch notes. 🙄

[MunkiLord]

Best suggestion I’ve seen is a survival mode with increasingly buffed enemies the longer a player or team lasts. 

[Marshman]

There is a bevy of settings so you can play the game you want how you want.  I don't understand all the complaints about the Incarnate system, temp powers, etc.  Most incarnate content only requires you to have a slot unlocked if I recall.  Doesn't mean you have to actually slot it.  So you can play content non-incarnated if you want.  Content too easy? Then adjust difficulty settings  and/or remove all your pretty IO sets and run with training enhancements.  Don't want temp powers on a TF? There's an option to make them obsolete. I mean I really don't get all the complaints honestly.

Edited March 30, 2020 by Marshman

[Peacemoon]

14 minutes ago, Marshman said:

There is a bevy of settings so you can play the game you want how you want.  I don't understand all the complaints about the Incarnate system, temp powers, etc.  Most incarnate content only requires you to have a slot unlocked if I recall.  Doesn't mean you have to actually slot it.  So you can play content non-incarnated if you want.  Content too easy? Then adjust difficulty settings  and/or remove all your pretty IO sets and run with training enhancements.  Don't want temp powers on a TF? There's an option to make them obsolete. I mean I really don't get all the complaints honestly.

I think the majority of this post is about group content rather than solo. I agree when playing solo you can do all sorts of things to make the game more interesting, and actually playing solo is one of the things I often do at high level to do just that.

 

But in a team setting you’re going to have difficulty convincing everyone else to take the harder route to complete something without being able to offer them any incentive.
 

I think that’s what this whole post is about. Not how can we take away nice things, but how can we incentivise playing on more challenging modes. Most games have harder modes or difficulty settings for just this reason, whether you’re playing PS4 games or other MMOs. I suppose I fall into the category of players that enjoys a challenge. 
 

Maybe I’ll try form a TF with certain conditions attached and see who is willing to join me! A good place to start would be old school Positron TF from Ouroboros...

[FrauleinMental]

I main a well-slotted incarnate mind/kin controller, and she can sometimes be tough to solo, especially against EBs and AVs (which neuter the AT inherent for controllers) and mez-resistant foes (which do that and also deny mind controllers their AT pet).  On the other hand, my secondary is a well-slotted incarnate WP/SS tanker, and she rips through +4/x8.

 

This game is as easy as you make it.  You want a harder game?  Play different AT/powersets, do different content.  Or flashback to lower-level story arcs and/or increase challenges at the Pillar.  There's a reason farmers tend toward particular builds and particular types of content.  There's nothing wrong with that, but don't build a character that steamrolls content and then complain that it's too easy to steamroll content.

[ShardWarrior]

33 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

Best suggestion I’ve seen is a survival mode with increasingly buffed enemies the longer a player or team lasts. 

STO has something like this called the "Arena of Sompek".  It is really a lot of fun!  When it is running, they have scaling rewards for it.

[Nex]

The game is easy only if you don't challenge yourself.

[Blastit]

20 minutes ago, Marshman said:

There is a bevy of settings so you can play the game you want how you want.  I don't understand all the complaints about the Incarnate system, temp powers, etc.  Most incarnate content only requires you to have a slot unlocked if I recall.  Doesn't mean you have to actually slot it.  So you can play content non-incarnated if you want.  Content too easy? Then adjust difficulty settings  and/or remove all your pretty IO sets and run with training enhancements.  Don't want temp powers on a TF? There's an option to make them obsolete. I mean I really don't get all the complaints honestly.

Because the game's systems encourage use and exploration of them by virtue of existing. The point of the IO system is for it to be used. Most people are going to use it. The community has this expectation. Damn near every single build being posted on these forums aiming towards maximising defence and recharge tells you that people do in fact adhere to the system as it exists. The people who use IOs aren't even doing anything wrong. They didn't design it, they're just doing what the game expects them to do.

 

So demanding that individual players voluntarily police this is not a great solution. I mean, what do you think the success rate of asking a PUG to make and use a non-IO build is going to be? Gimmick SGs and meet-ups happen fairly often but each of them don't happen nearly as often as just regular play. Should we kick people from the team for having a character that makes too good a use of the game's systems of progress? "Sorry, Power-Brute, you did much too well on the last mission and have got to go" Characters being so strong that they don't need to team is why we got enhancement diversification and aggro caps in the first place. That would've been a hell of a response to the craze of Burn Tankers. "Just don't play one, or team with one". They still existed and set the expectations. That's why extremely powerful outliers are brought down, they set the expectations and turns everything that can't keep up into a de facto failure.

[lyra]

8 hours ago, eiynp said:

 

imo incarnate powers (with the exception of perhaps the alpha slot) should be restricted to actual incarnate content; I find I rarely even want to play level 50 characters because it's all so boring and samey.

I will miss clarion, but i love this idea.so many good stuns out there and this would be a chance for supporters to feel needed again! 😛

also, i dont like when people use all the lore+Judgementstuff on non-incarnate missions, but taking it away from them is maybe also not correct.if they enjoy this..nah i do not have solution 😕