More than 5 proc's of same type

[tellania]

I know the rule of 5 applies for IO set bonuses, but what about non-unique procs?

 

I have an electric/electric controller, and wondering how many of the new endurance +heal procs I could use (low grade regen controller?).

 

I'm assuming this should work, just thought I would ask for feedback in case I'm wrong.

[Crysis]

I know Achilles Heel -RES proc doesn’t stack with itself and always thought that was true for other procs as well?

[merrypessimist]

Aren't the endmod +heal IOs unique? I could have sworn they were unique.  That aside, the only individual IO procs that weren't subject to Rule of 5 (or one for uniques) were the Sudden Acceleration knockBACK to knockDOWN and the Sandman sleep +heal IO, which got turned unique with this update.  I admit there may be others, but those were the only two that came ot me offhand.

[Doomguide2005]

Most of the time I would check in Mids'.  When you mouse over the enhancements of a power you'll see two lists, one lists all the enhancement bonuses the other lists the "set bonuses" as far as I recall (going by memory, computer died 😥) ... which of the lists does the proc appear on? 

[Bopper]

The only thing that should matter is the bonuses following the rule of 5. If I slot 6 LotG +Recharge, I lose the 6th +recharge bonus, but I should still get the defense enhancement to work. In this case, I would think the proc would work (it's not a bonus). But I could be wrong, it's been awhile since I've thought of Rule of 5 beyond set bonuses and LotG.

[macskull]

Random-effect procs don't have any associated limits, unless they're unique IOs, because they don't count as set bonuses.

[ZekeStenzland]

Rule of 5 only applies to set bonuses. However, be aware that some io set pieces grant “set abilities” all by themselves. Generally, if the thing applies at all times, regardless of whether you have access to the power, it’s a set bonus. So stuff like lotg +7.5% recharge, botz knockback protection, and aegis(?) psionic resistance are all done as set bonuses. 
 

Things that trigger off using the power it’s slotted in aren’t generally done as set bonuses, so Rule of 5 doesn’t apply. This includes chance for knockdown, chance for -res, and chance for smashing damage. 
 

For exact details, paragonwiki has the exhaustive list of what counts as what. 

[Crysis]

6 hours ago, ZekeStenzland said:

Rule of 5 only applies to set bonuses. However, be aware that some io set pieces grant “set abilities” all by themselves. Generally, if the thing applies at all times, regardless of whether you have access to the power, it’s a set bonus. So stuff like lotg +7.5% recharge, botz knockback protection, and aegis(?) psionic resistance are all done as set bonuses. 
 

Things that trigger off using the power it’s slotted in aren’t generally done as set bonuses, so Rule of 5 doesn’t apply. This includes chance for knockdown, chance for -res, and chance for smashing damage. 
 

For exact details, paragonwiki has the exhaustive list of what counts as what. 

Wait, are you saying that Achilles -RES proc DOES stack if triggered from multiple powers?

[macskull]

2 minutes ago, Crysis said:

Wait, are you saying that Achilles -RES proc DOES stack if triggered from multiple powers?

Individual -res procs do not stack with themselves, even from different casters, but the three different -res procs will stack with each other.

[ZekeStenzland]

No, what I am saying is, whether they apply at all is based on whether they’re implemented as a set bonus or as a proc.

 

If you slot Karma 4pt Knockback Protection in 8 different powers, you’ll only get 20pts of protection (rather than 32) because those are implemented as set bonuses, so at most only 5 count. 
 

Contrariwise, if you slot Kinetic Combat Chance for Knockdown in 8 different powers, all 8 of them now have a chance for knockdown. 
 

As far as whether proc effects that have a duration stack with each other, that depends on how the individual proc effect is coded. Some, like Achilles -res is coded to not stack with itself. My guess is that all crowd control proc effects (hold, immob, etc) will stack just fine. I honestly don’t know where you’d go to look up all the specifics, other experimenting yourself. 
 

Edited April 1, 2020 by ZekeStenzland
Clarity

[Galaxy Brain]

18 hours ago, Crysis said:

I know Achilles Heel -RES proc doesn’t stack with itself and always thought that was true for other procs as well?

Achilles does not stack traditionally (20+20 = 40), but you can refresh the duration between multiple powers (up to 5)

[Crysis]

1 hour ago, ZekeStenzland said:

No, what I am saying is, whether they apply at all is based on whether they’re implemented as a set bonus or as a proc.

 

If you slot Karma 4pt Knockback Protection in 8 different powers, you’ll only get 20pts of protection (rather than 32) because those are implemented as set bonuses, so at most only 5 count. 
 

Contrariwise, if you slot Kinetic Combat Chance for Knockdown in 8 different powers, all 8 of them now have a chance for knockdown. 
 

As far as whether proc effects that have a duration stack with each other, that depends on how the individual proc effect is coded. Some, like Achilles -res is coded to not stack with itself. My guess is that all crowd control proc effects (hold, immob, etc) will stack just fine. I honestly don’t know where you’d go to look up all the specifics, other experimenting yourself. 
 

I was just about to ask if there was a table somewhere that listed “stackability” and such.

 

I have a few builds that are heavily procc’ed out with stuff like chance to Hold, chance for Buildup and FF Chance for +Recharge.  I seem to notice stuff that buffs ME sometimes stacks.  Stuff that Debuffs target does not.

 

But that’s casual and anecdotal observation and not empirical testing.  I was hoping someone a lot more intelligent than I had already catalogued all the Procs to test which ones offering same benefit stack with each other, Uniques excluded of course.

[ZekeStenzland]

Yeah, I hear you. I think the thing is these are hard to test. And against things that aren’t elite bosses, archvillains, or giant monsters the damage will kill them quickly and the debuffs are largely irrelevant. So the only things people test are the procs that would be useful against AVs. Who cares if your 3mag, 10sec hold proc stacks when you need 50mag to actually hold him?

[Galaxy Brain]

Procs that debuff enemies do not stack as they cause the target to cast a power on themselves, which can be refreshed but not stacked.

 

Luckily, these debuffs are unresisted and will always be what they say on the tin 🙂

[MunkiLord]

11 hours ago, Crysis said:

I was just about to ask if there was a table somewhere that listed “stackability” and such.

 

I have a few builds that are heavily procc’ed out with stuff like chance to Hold, chance for Buildup and FF Chance for +Recharge.  I seem to notice stuff that buffs ME sometimes stacks.  Stuff that Debuffs target does not.

 

But that’s casual and anecdotal observation and not empirical testing.  I was hoping someone a lot more intelligent than I had already catalogued all the Procs to test which ones offering same benefit stack with each other, Uniques excluded of course.

Not the specific answers you want, but this page is helpful:  https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Set_Enhancements_with_Special_Effects

[Jacke]

Part of the problem with this is that some things that are globals are called procs, even in their ingame descriptions, like the Preventive Medicine Absorb special.  It's called a proc, but the power it's in doesn't need to be activated for it to work, which means it's a global.  Some of this may and will change from what was on Live, which is covered on the Paragon Wiki page @MunkiLord quoted above.  The list of special IOs is incomplete even for Live, as it's missing the 2nd sets of Archetype Enhancements.

 

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Set_Enhancements_with_Special_Effects

 

Quote

This is a list of all the Special IOs -- the Invention Enhancements that come from IO Sets, but don't need any of the other members of their Set to be slotted in order to provide their special benefits.

 

The columns are sortable. Click the hourglass/triangle next to the column header to toggle ascending and descending sorts.

 

Type is either Global or Proc/Proc120.

 

Globals are Special IOs that act like Set Bonuses in that they are always on even if the power isn't activated and even if the power is greyed out because of exemplaring! However, the one thing that will shut off a Global IO is exemplaring more than three levels under the level of that Global IO. If the Global is from a PvP Set, then it is excepted from the under-exemplaring rule and will never shut off from exemplaring.

 

Procs require the power they are in to be activated in order to work. In a click power, they go off once with every click. In a passive power or active toggle, they continuously pulse on once every 10 seconds per target. Certain pseudo-pet powers will inherit the proc and if they fire off for a set duration, the Proc has a chance to pulse several times (once every 10 seconds) during that period.

• Procs which are labeled Proc120s will work for 120 seconds in a click power. They are always on in a Passive power. In a Toggle power, they turn on with the Toggle is turned on and turn off when the Toggle is turned off.

• 120s or Proc120s always activate when the power they are in is activate; there is no "Chance to" on them.

• Obviously, if you are exemplaring and the power the Proc is in is greyed out, then you can't get the benefit of the Proc. However, the upside of Procs is that they continue to work even if you exemplar way below their level. E.g., a level 50 Stealth in Sprint will work even if exemplared to level 10.

• The Procs that have a chance to do damage do the amount of damage listed here, the Proc Damage Scale.

• Some PvPIOs have two proc chances. The lower one is used against NPCs and the higher one is used against other players.

 

Edited April 2, 2020 by Jacke