Copyrighted Generics Issues

[ZacKing]

27 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Where are the C&D's for fanart? For cosplayers? You been on Deviantart? Do you think Disney is unaware of them? They care if you try and make money off their IP. 

 

Concerns for this are a joke. It's like someone on a file sharing site specifically designed to distribute other's IP  andgetting all pissy about someone else using a copyright photo for their avatar. 

 

Exactly.  A few people here literally lost their shit over people making cosplays in the game because they thought it was tacky and cried and whined about it.  Disney won't give a hoot about this server.

 

To be clear, I totally respect that the people running this server have rules and want to do what they think is right.  I've no problem with their COC.  i just think we all have a greater chance of getting struck by a random meteor than Disney slapping a lawsuit on anyone.

[ABlueThingy]

2 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Where are the C&D's for fanart? For cosplayers? You been on Deviantart? Do you think Disney is unaware of them? They care if you try and make money off their IP. 

 

 

 

 

Disney has actually dropped C/Ds fan artists. They normally let it go because it's a bigger hassle to sue every single artiest individually.  Disney actually has a policy on fan art. Cosplayers are usually left alone because they're done at events that give free press to Disney at places where Disney can make money. 

 

But here's the thing, you don't have to make money off a Disney character for Disney to have legal rights to sue you.  All you have to do is something they disapprove of.  They're Disney's characters after all, they get a say in how you use them.  If you make "Ion-Man69" an alcoholic billionaire pornstar as a bit.  And you dress up in a modified ironman costume with the codpiece replaced by a pink thong and just do poses on the beach?  Lets say taking instragam photos.

 

Disney can sue you to stop it.  Even though you (technically) broke no decency laws.  You made no money. But because you are making one of their characters look bad.

 

And that's the how/when Disney drops the C/D on fan artists.

Disney often dislikes it when people do "non-family friendly" things with their characters.  If you made a donald duck knockoff as an AR/Fire and had them shooting criminals and setting people on fire.  Disney has been known to get riled up about those things.

 

They have been known to throw fallacious C/Ds at people just to make them shut up.  And then refuse to defend it in court. Just delay things as long as possible to punish the artists as it costs you money to keep having a lawyer submit "Yes we're still contesting" papers.

 

2 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Yes I know.  That is not the question I asked though.  Disney, Marvel, WB, EA, Blizzard - a whole slew of IP owning companies do not seem to be doing much of anything against sites like Deviantart where artists are charging for commissions of IP based characters.  I would near guarantee they know it is going on there.

 

You want to know why Disney lets Deviantart exist and sell art of their characters?  Because as long as you're just drawing approved art in a limited fashion Disney considers it free advertisement.  As long as you're not making too much money. Or Disney could make MORE money by hurting you.  Or Disney got a bug up their ass and decided no one is allowed to do X anymore and mass C/Ds people. (every so often they throw a fit about something.  No more shipping starwars characters, no showing Tony Stark drinking/smoking, no whatever)

 

So the times they let people get away with things are... basically irreverent.  Some works are allowed under fair use or transformative use policies legally. Sometimes Disney lets people do things.  Some kinds of art are ok.    But every so often Disney will drop a bunch of C/D on people legit or not.  Because it's cheap and easy.  I already posted the example where they were going after people for posting pictures of toys they bought legally.  Even though that was stupid.

 

Speeding is illegal.  Blowing red lights is illegal.  I sat at the light and watched well over 10 cars blow the red.  When it was my turn I followed on the heels of 3 cars, all of us blew a red light and the two guys ahead of me were going even faster then me.  Cops only pulled me over though.  Why?  I know I've seen those cops sitting there watching cars blow that light? Some of them doing 20mph over.  Why stop me?  Honestly, I think because it was exactly 5pm and he was heading home.  And the local laws say they get bonus pay for working overtime catching "criminals."

 

But it doesn't matter why.  I broke the law. Yes other people broke the law.  Doesn't matter.  Just because other people are flagrantly playing with IP law doesn't mean we can afford to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ABlueThingy]

9 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Exactly.  A few people here literally lost their shit over people making cosplays in the game because they thought it was tacky and cried and whined about it.  Disney won't give a hoot about this server.

 

To be clear, I totally respect that the people running this server have rules and want to do what they think is right.  I've no problem with their COC.  i just think we all have a greater chance of getting struck by a random meteor than Disney slapping a lawsuit on anyone.

 

People lost their shit because you're putting our game at risk, again, after we just got it back.  No one cares if you don't think it's much risk.  It's not worth it to us.

 

 

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, ABlueThingy said:

Because as long as you're just drawing approved art in a limited fashion Disney considers it free advertisement.  As long as you're not making too much money. Or Disney could make MORE money by hurting you.

So based on this, I do not see why they would even bother with this server.  Just saying. 

 

2 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

Some works are allowed under fair use or transformative use policies legally.

Kind of like homages.

[ZacKing]

7 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

People lost their shit because you're putting our game at risk, again, after we just got it back.  No one cares if you don't think it's much risk.  It's not worth it to us.

Dude calm down.  people can disagree on stuff and it's ok.  I don't make direct copycats, but I also could care less if that's what someone else wants to do if that's what make them happy.  I'm not here to tell other people what they should and shouldn't do with their character.  I won't go telling people to be "more creative" and other stupid stuff.

 

You want to be angry, be angry at the people who stole the code and ran a private server for years and repeatedly lied to all our faces about it.  That's put the game in way more jeapordy than Disney ever will.

[Jimmy]

Keep it civil please 🙂

 

Someone else violating the Code of Conduct is not an acceptable reason to be rude to them. Just report and move on.

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

I have to ask, why would they want to here?  Sure, they have a lot more money now.  That does not mean they will just blow it all on frivolous lawsuits that do not really gain them anything and would generate a lot of bad press on their part.

In the US, IP must be "jealously defended".  Or you lose control of it.
"Blow it."
You DO realize Disney/Marvel either has a law firm on retainer right?  Or they have their own in-house legal department.
It doesn't cost them a thing to file lawsuit after lawsuit.  Because these people are already sitting around, getting paid anyhow.

As to "bad press".
Ever hear of "There is no such thing as bad publicity."?

Besides, outside of the CoH community and, maybe, a slightly wider MMO/gaming sphere, the subject is fairly niche.


 

[Hyperstrike]

32 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

You want to be angry, be angry at the people who stole the code and ran a private server for years and repeatedly lied to all our faces about it.  That's put the game in way more jeapordy than Disney ever will.

Yup. A server, making every attempt to be kept SECRET for seven years, is more of a threat than Disney.

[ABlueThingy]

11 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

So based on this, I do not see why they would even bother with this server.  Just saying.

I mean, if you want to ignore the part where sometimes they do care and you can't easily predict when they will bother. Ok

 

17 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Kind of like homages.

Making a clone character in city of heroes does not meet the legal definitions of Fair Use or Transformative Work.  If it was distinct enough from the original to be under "Transformative Work" the GMs likely wouldn't have generic'd it.

 

13 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Dude calm down.

If I was angry I wouldn't be posting.  I've been trying to explain to you why you are having these issues and how to avoid them. 

 

14 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 I don't make direct copycats, but I also could care less if that's what someone else wants to do if that's what make them happy.  I'm not here to tell other people what they should and shouldn't do with their character.  I won't go telling people to be "more creative" and other stupid stuff.

 

I won't tell you to "Be more creative"  because that would be kinda of rude

 

I will tell you that if you don't make your character distinct enough from whatever inspirations sourced the idea.  You will get generic'd.  And I will tell you that "Distinct enough" is up to the individual GMs.  And they will generally err on the side of protecting the server over your freedom of expression.

 

I'm not saying that to be mean.  Just... this is cause and effect. 

 

There is no "line" to cross when it comes to making a character based off an existing IP.  It's more of a DMZ.  If you want to risk your character getting their costume/name wiped you can poke around in there.  The DMZ starts at "I'm making a character based off/an homage of X."

 

26 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

You want to be angry, be angry at the people who stole the code and ran a private server for years and repeatedly lied to all our faces about it.  That's put the game in way more jeopardy than Disney ever will.

 

How does shielding a game from lawsuit and targeting from the publisher while they work on getting it into a usable condition put it MORE at risk then poking disney with a stick and hoping they won't crush us?

 

 

 

[Seed22]

On 4/22/2020 at 8:12 AM, Greycat said:

Regardless of how you feel (and you're making some pretty weak arguments - there's a difference between "I made a super strength/inv tank" and "I made a Superman clone named S.U.P.E.R.M.A.N and it got genericed," and I'm pretty sure you know it,) there are two big facts you're choosing to ignore:

 

1. Early in the game, Cryptic (at the time) was already embroiled in a copyright suit filed by Marvel. Yes, Marvel pulled some shenanigans, but it's in the game's history - which is why they were generic'd on live,  and

2. *The devs are trying to negotiate with NCSoft to go legit.* People making copyrighted characters can cause issues with that. So yes, they have to act on copyright-infringing characters.

 

If the choice is between "I want to be Iron Man" and "The game is now legal," I'm *not* choosing you. And I don't think the devs or GMs would, either. I'd much rather have donations go to keeping the server running than having to get even more to fight another lawsuit.

 

I have had *hundreds* of characters on live (approaching a hundred here, actually.) Many of them probably had powerset combinations that matched comic characters - I don't know, I'm not a comic encyclopedia and there are hundreds of thousands of comic characters out there. Know how many of mine I've had a hard time trying to keep from being generic'd? Zero. It's fine to have ideas inspired by characters or franchises you like. But there's a big difference between "Female archaeologist and adventurer" and "I'm Lara Croft, down to name, backstory and look!"

 

Be more creative. Be unique. Don't put the efforts to bring this game legally back to life at risk for everyone.

 

And altaholic - "Everyone is using a costume that has been already done before." Really? In all the time I played live, from issue 3 to shutdown and now here, playing (there) on all servers, I ran across a similar costume to one of mine... once. I don't think I've ever had someone confuse one of my characters with a copyrighted one. So, no, "Everyone is using a costume that has been already done before" is not true in the least. The large number of costume parts make it *easier* not to look like someone else (part of the reason people play is to *make their own* look and character, after all,) not harder.

 

(Edit: I should say twice, but that was a deliberate choice with myself and another player, and that costume didn't look like anyone else *or* any copyrighted character.)

This a 1000x. Also imagine how uninspired and non creative you have to be to even WANT to copy a character tick for tact like that in a game where you don't have to. I think I have no characters even inspired by comics(never read 'em minus sandman but that's different). I'm not saying reading/wanting to make a homage is bad, but making EXACT clones is. It's not hard to come up with a completely unique character if you put a tiny amount of effort into 'em.

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, Hyperstrike said:

In the US, IP must be "jealously defended".  Or you lose control of it.
"Blow it."
You DO realize Disney/Marvel either has a law firm on retainer right?  Or they have their own in-house legal department.
It doesn't cost them a thing to file lawsuit after lawsuit.  Because these people are already sitting around, getting paid anyhow.

As to "bad press".
Ever hear of "There is no such thing as bad publicity."?

Besides, outside of the CoH community and, maybe, a slightly wider MMO/gaming sphere, the subject is fairly niche.


 

I am somewhat familiar with trademark law.  As for "bad press", all you need do is read some of the responses in this thread regarding Disney and their impact on copyright law to know they are not viewed so favorably.  A few minutes googling of the subject and you will find that yes, there is such a thing as bad press.  Disney most of all is nowhere near immune to it.  Yes, the game is niche.  That pretty much makes the point that it is very, very, very unlikely a Disney would even care about it.  Also, "on retainer" does not in any way mean "free of charge".

 

1 hour ago, ABlueThingy said:

How does shielding a game from lawsuit and targeting from the publisher while they work on getting it into a usable condition put it MORE at risk then poking disney with a stick and hoping they won't crush us?

I do not think the game was kept secret for the reason you think it was.... 

Edited April 24, 2020 by ShardWarrior

[Seed22]

On 4/22/2020 at 9:30 AM, ZacKing said:

Yeah we can all read man.  No ones suggesting that the rule get lifted. 

So then what's the problem?

[ZacKing]

1 hour ago, Hyperstrike said:

Yup. A server, making every attempt to be kept SECRET for seven years, is more of a threat than Disney.

Hang on a minute - why was it being kept secret?  Why the need for NDAs and all the secrecy about it?  Did the people running it have permission from the owner of the IP? Was the code purchased or given to them with permission?

1 hour ago, ABlueThingy said:

How does shielding a game from lawsuit and targeting from the publisher while they work on getting it into a usable condition put it MORE at risk then poking disney with a stick and hoping they won't crush us?

 

Uhm, what?  You do know the code wasn't taken with permission, right? 

 

I get why they kept it secret and can't blame anyone for doing it.  But let's be honest here, you're arguing that stolen property is under less of a threat from the rightful owner of it than Disney?

[ZacKing]

10 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

Also imagine how uninspired and non creative you have to be to even WANT to copy a character tick for tact like that in a game where you don't have to.

Man there's like legions of cosplayers around the world that explain it.

[ZacKing]

7 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

So then what's the problem?

I don't have a problem with the rule.  scroll up I've said it repeatedly and have no problem following it.  we're just having a discussion is all.  I find it very odd people seem to think there is some imminent C&D coming from Marvel over the game.  It's just not going to happen.

[Rathulfr]

6 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

I find it very odd people seem to think there is some imminent C&D coming from Marvel over the game.  It's just not going to happen.

And especially not if we're careful to avoid poking The Mouse.  Steering clear of even being close to infringing on anyone else's copyrights is the best way to help insure that it never happens.  So I think we're all agreed on that.  Let's all join hands and sing kum ba yah now. 🙂

Edited April 24, 2020 by Rathulfr

[Troo]

@Jaegernault just to reiterate x number of pages in:

 

+

Are there any rules and policies I should read?

Yes! Please read the User Agreement, Privacy Policy and Code of Conduct.
+

Spoiler

On 4/22/2020 at 7:14 AM, AerialAssault said:

 

Read through the announcement for your answers.

 

Don't expect the Homecoming team to budge on this any time soon.

 

[MunkiLord]

1 hour ago, Hyperstrike said:

In the US, IP must be "jealously defended".  Or you lose control of it.

 

This is only true for trademark, not copyright or patents. 

[Haijinx]

7 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

 

I do not think anyone is suggesting character names should be allowed.

It depends. 

 

Batman?  Superman? No.

 

Blackjack?  Hammer?  Probably.

 

 

[Haijinx]

42 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Man there's like legions of cosplayers around the world that explain it.

Huge difference between dressing up as a character from a comic book world in the real world.

 

And making a copy of a comic book character and playing a comic book game with it.

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

Huge difference between dressing up as a character from a comic book world in the real world.

 

And making a copy of a comic book character and playing a comic book game with it.

And what difference would that be?

[ZacKing]

50 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

And especially not if we're careful to avoid poking The Mouse.  Steering clear of even being close to infringing on anyone else's copyrights is the best way to help insure that it never happens.  So I think we're all agreed on that.  Let's all join hands and sing kum ba yah now. 🙂

Yeah that's fair.  I don't think we should worry about walking on eggshells over it though. 

[Haijinx]

28 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

And what difference would that be?

In the context of the real world, comic book characters are make believe.  

 

 

[tidge]

5 hours ago, ZacKing said:

I don't have a problem with the rule.  scroll up I've said it repeatedly and have no problem following it.  we're just having a discussion is all.  I find it very odd people seem to think there is some imminent C&D coming from Marvel over the game.  It's just not going to happen.

[ShardWarrior]

6 hours ago, Haijinx said:

In the context of the real world, comic book characters are make believe.  

 

 

They are make believe here too.  There is no difference.