Energy Melee - Does not need

[Galaxy Brain]

The only combo I'd like is that you get like, bonus damage vs stunned targets to really crank in the ST focus.

[Naraka]

33 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The only combo I'd like is that you get like, bonus damage vs stunned targets to really crank in the ST focus.

Taking the hypothetical that the Charge mechanic *IS* going to be part of the change to Energy Melee, would giving ET the fast animation if charge and the slow animation if not charged be a worthy compromise for those in this thread?  The other spender could be Whirling Hands getting some extra damage and BU being upgraded to [some cool name] that is basically just BU + instant charged status.  For Stalkers, adding a PBAoE splash energy damage as ET and TF's crit maybe?

[Zeraphia]

24 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Taking the hypothetical that the Charge mechanic *IS* going to be part of the change to Energy Melee, would giving ET the fast animation if charge and the slow animation if not charged be a worthy compromise for those in this thread?  The other spender could be Whirling Hands getting some extra damage and BU being upgraded to [some cool name] that is basically just BU + instant charged status.  For Stalkers, adding a PBAoE splash energy damage as ET and TF's crit maybe?

Hell no. Leave Momentum to Titan Weapons, do not DARE try to implement that crap to EM. +0.

 

Also no. Do not want splash AoE damage, I want my hardcore heavy hitter ST attacks to be what they're supposed to be. In this state of the game, they should shave off ET's animation time to what it was and allow it all to be crit, as it should. 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Zeraphia

[BrandX]

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

I agree it needs animation changes, but disagree hard that it needs SJ animations. 

 

They just don't fit what the set did/claims to do.

 

What did it do and claim to do, other than be a melee set that did stuns and energy damage with cool pink pom poms?

 

That said, like I said, can always be alternate animations.  However, I'd be fine with some animation reduction.  I'd also like it ported to Scrappers, where it never made sense that they didn't have it.

 

I'd take it as is for a port to Scrappers, but still, it could use some work, and I'd like Barrage to be better.

[Yoru-hime]

22 hours ago, Troo said:

Energy Melee - Does not need more multi-target attacks (Aura, Cones, AoE, etc).

Energy Melee - Does not need a combo system or mechanic.

Energy Melee - Does not need to be re-envisioned.

 

A single target AT on SOs that can put out the same amount of damage as a proc'd out incarnate, also not needed.

 

I am getting a little nervous about the 'update' turning into changes or more.

 

My ask has always been singular: Revert the Energy Transfer nerf. Simple and quick.

I feel like toward the end of Live and even here there's too much of an "every set needs a gimmick mechanic" mindset. Special mechanics are nice now and then as a way to change things up, but sometimes a solidly performing powerset backed by awesome animations is all you need and I'll decide my own attack chain, thank you very much.

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, Zeraphia said:

Hell no. Leave Momentum to Titan Weapons, do not DARE try to implement that crap to EM. +0.

 

Also no. Do not want splash AoE damage, I want my hardcore heavy hitter ST attacks to be what they're supposed to be. In this state of the game, they should shave off ET's animation time to what it was and allow it all to be crit, as it should. 

 

23 minutes ago, Yoru-hime said:

I feel like toward the end of Live and even here there's too much of an "every set needs a gimmick mechanic" mindset. Special mechanics are nice now and then as a way to change things up, but sometimes a solidly performing powerset backed by awesome animations is all you need and I'll decide my own attack chain, thank you very much.

Completely agree on both counts.  EM was always a heavy hitter and personally I would love to see it return to that.  Leave gimmicks to other sets.

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, Zeraphia said:

Also no. Do not want splash AoE damage, I want my hardcore heavy hitter ST attacks to be what they're supposed to be. In this state of the game, they should shave off ET's animation time to what it was and allow it all to be crit, as it should. 

Considering many dislike the set having no form of AoE at all since the only AoE was removed for AS, you could rectify that by giving one or more of the set's ST attacks conditional AoE damage.  This is coming from a perspective of consensus rather than personal taste but even from personal taste, Stalkers already have a fast high power ST attack built in which didn't exist for a good portion of the AT's existence which should play a factor in the direction the set is changed to moving forward.  The alternative is to remove a power and put WH back in which seems even less attractive and more disruptive to existing builds or to just leave it with no form of AoE at all.  If we're addressing the set's performance, stringent focus on personal preference has its limits with regards to mass appeal.

 

The same will likely happen if Martial Arts ever gets any focus.

[aethereal]

We are probably not at a point where it's very fruitful to give generally directional advice on how to revamp Energy Melee.  It seems likely at this point that they have a general approach and are settled on it at least until it gets publicly tested (and potentially found either acceptable or flawed).

[BrandX]

2 hours ago, Naraka said:

Considering many dislike the set having no form of AoE at all since the only AoE was removed for AS, you could rectify that by giving one or more of the set's ST attacks conditional AoE damage.  This is coming from a perspective of consensus rather than personal taste but even from personal taste, Stalkers already have a fast high power ST attack built in which didn't exist for a good portion of the AT's existence which should play a factor in the direction the set is changed to moving forward.  The alternative is to remove a power and put WH back in which seems even less attractive and more disruptive to existing builds or to just leave it with no form of AoE at all.  If we're addressing the set's performance, stringent focus on personal preference has its limits with regards to mass appeal.

 

The same will likely happen if Martial Arts ever gets any focus.

 

Or just replace Stun with Whirling Hands.  Simple and done.  Live with the .05% who complain. 😛

 

Stalker's being even better at the ST with their AS shouldn't be bothering (imo anyways) and it'll just be a set that many consider best on Stalker.  I'd still make a Scrapper, many would still make a Brute.

 

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by BrandX

[JayboH]

On 5/17/2020 at 11:59 AM, Troo said:

Energy Melee - Does not need more multi-target attacks (Aura, Cones, AoE, etc).

Energy Melee - Does not need a combo system or mechanic.

Energy Melee - Does not need to be re-envisioned.

 

A single target AT on SOs that can put out the same amount of damage as a proc'd out incarnate, also not needed.

 

I am getting a little nervous about the 'update' turning into changes or more.

 

My ask has always been singular: Revert the Energy Transfer nerf. Simple and quick.

Actually they already toyed with Energy Melee changes on the closed beta server some years ago with tankers, and yes, it added some AOE mechanics to the set under certain conditions, that way you weren't required to benefit from it if you really wanted to be weaker by playing it the old way.

[Galaxy Brain]

5 hours ago, Yoru-hime said:

I feel like toward the end of Live and even here there's too much of an "every set needs a gimmick mechanic" mindset. Special mechanics are nice now and then as a way to change things up, but sometimes a solidly performing powerset backed by awesome animations is all you need and I'll decide my own attack chain, thank you very much.

They did that because the "basic" set ideas were already done. 

[Troo]

@JayboH I'd swear I saw a youtube of yours using energy melee.

[Naraka]

8 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

Or just replace Stun with Whirling Hands.  Simple and done.  Live with the .05% who complain. 😛

 

Stalker's being even better at the ST with their AS shouldn't be bothering (imo anyways) and it'll just be a set that many consider best on Stalker.  I'd still make a Scrapper, many would still make a Brute.

 

 

I personally wouldn't mind, but replacing powers should be something done as a last resort.  Having both Stun and WH on my Dark Tanker, I wouldn't want either replaced.

 

On the other hand, making Stun faster or having some other kind of synergy with the set (it's already a guaranteed stun) would be better than replacing it for Stalkers.  Giving one of the high ST damage attacks a "splash" crit or "splash" when charged is less redundant than having 3 high ST attacks.  It'd also have the side effect of making Stun better on my Tanker.

 

But I'm just throwing out ideas here.  I don't think giving the set a bit more AoE would marginalize it's ST focus.

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

I personally wouldn't mind, but replacing powers should be something done as a last resort.  Having both Stun and WH on my Dark Tanker, I wouldn't want either replaced.

 

On the other hand, making Stun faster or having some other kind of synergy with the set (it's already a guaranteed stun) would be better than replacing it for Stalkers.  Giving one of the high ST damage attacks a "splash" crit or "splash" when charged is less redundant than having 3 high ST attacks.  It'd also have the side effect of making Stun better on my Tanker.

 

But I'm just throwing out ideas here.  I don't think giving the set a bit more AoE would marginalize it's ST focus.

 

Okay.  This would change it up a bit and possibly mess up some slotting for a few, who I'd guess only use it as a set mule, but for Stun and to add a bit more AOE.

 

Stun becomes a Targeted AOE.  Main Target gets the Stun at Mag 3, while those around the target get hit with the same low damage, but on the plus side, people can proc it out for more damage.

 

And, like I said, there would be a .05% who'd complain. 🙂

Edited May 19, 2020 by BrandX

[Menelruin]

1 hour ago, BrandX said:

 

Okay.  This would change it up a bit and possibly mess up some slotting for a few, who I'd guess only use it as a set mule, but for Stun and to add a bit more AOE.

 

Stun becomes a Targeted AOE.  Main Target gets the Stun at Mag 3, while those around the target get hit with the same low damage, but on the plus side, people can proc it out for more damage.

 

And, like I said, there would be a .05% who'd complain. 🙂

Since Stun is so unused, I think that it's the best candidate for an AoE.  It either doesn't affect your build anyway if you were ignoring it, or it gives you a second option.

 

One other odd idea I saw somewhere was to make it so Whirling Hands sets off a targeted AoE burst of damage on EACH mob hit by it, so that your effective radius is greatly increases.  Though now that I think about it, that might get kinda crazy if you use it in the middle of a crowd, and every mob takes the blast damage from every OTHER mob.....

[JayboH]

3 hours ago, Troo said:

@JayboH I'd swear I saw a youtube of yours using energy melee.

Probably - I used to make lots of Youtube videos on a personal channel for this game.  The last 4 years though I have made videos for what is now known as Fandom Games.

[BrandX]

5 hours ago, Menelruin said:

Since Stun is so unused, I think that it's the best candidate for an AoE.  It either doesn't affect your build anyway if you were ignoring it, or it gives you a second option.

 

One other odd idea I saw somewhere was to make it so Whirling Hands sets off a targeted AoE burst of damage on EACH mob hit by it, so that your effective radius is greatly increases.  Though now that I think about it, that might get kinda crazy if you use it in the middle of a crowd, and every mob takes the blast damage from every OTHER mob.....

 

With my idea, the only thing it would hurt is the few who take it, but slotted it with single target melee attack IOs (maybe all the damage procs?).

 

So, the few who took it and then the few who didn't slot it with a stun set.  Those who did use the Stun sets aren't effected and instead get splash damage.  Could give it the same radius around the target as Spinning Strike, which yes, people keep asking for that to be increased at least by a little bit.

 

 

[Replacement]

I feel like I read something like a year ago about Stun "charging" an enemy and then attacking that enemy would detonate it, dealing a one-time aoe.

 

Did I dream this?  Anyone know who to credit with that idea?  Maybe a random GM idea?

[marcussmythe]

On 5/17/2020 at 11:59 AM, Troo said:

t need more multi-target attacks (Aura, Cones, AoE, etc).

Energy Melee - Does not nee

Implementing the Energy Assault changes, and reverting the EM animation, would be a good start before we 'look around and see where we are'.

 

Cottage-Rule EM probably reverts it to the best single target damage melee set, at the expense of being mediocre at AOE.  The balance point of 'best at something and still okay at something else' is paid for here by the self damage of ET and the fact that disorient is a poor secondary effect.

 

Updating the AOE could probably happen by making stun a PBAOE with a Moderate damage component (and a glowy foot stomp or ground punch animation, cause fun animations are fun)

[aethereal]

5 minutes ago, Replacement said:

I feel like I read something like a year ago about Stun "charging" an enemy and then attacking that enemy would detonate it, dealing a one-time aoe.

 

Did I dream this?  Anyone know who to credit with that idea?  Maybe a random GM idea?

This is similar enough to the Rad Melee AoE mechanic that I think it's not a fruitful approach.  If you want your ST attacks to become AoE attacks in a fists-energy-based melee set, I mean...  Rad melee is a good set.

[marcussmythe]

If we are interested in EM as a single target set (and we are), and given that the ultimate example of single target demand is AVs and GMs - 

 

How would we feel about a significant -Regen debuff as an EM secondary effect?  Probably best to make the debuff relatively small per hit, but long duration and stacking, such that after a minute of focusing on one target, you can assume even a GM or a +4 AV is floored?

 

Might give a niche that wouldnt break PvP...

 

 

 

[Menelruin]

1 hour ago, marcussmythe said:

If we are interested in EM as a single target set (and we are), and given that the ultimate example of single target demand is AVs and GMs - 

 

How would we feel about a significant -Regen debuff as an EM secondary effect?  Probably best to make the debuff relatively small per hit, but long duration and stacking, such that after a minute of focusing on one target, you can assume even a GM or a +4 AV is floored?

 

Might give a niche that wouldnt break PvP...

 

 

 

Mechanically cool, but thematically doesn't really fit, sadly.  It would almost make more sense to give that gimmick to Rad Melee and then pass an equivalent of Contaminated over to EM with the "detonation" idea someone mentioned....except of course, that would again shift EM away from ST......

[marcussmythe]

9 minutes ago, Menelruin said:

Mechanically cool, but thematically doesn't really fit, sadly.  It would almost make more sense to give that gimmick to Rad Melee and then pass an equivalent of Contaminated over to EM with the "detonation" idea someone mentioned....except of course, that would again shift EM away from ST......

Valid, but at the same time, what exactly does 'Energy Not Otherwise Specified' do to a target?  🙂

 

In the alternate, a long duration, small but stacking resist debuff would get there - here I am talking each hit leaving a small debuff with a duration in minutes or tens of minutes, such that over an extended fight, the target would take more and more and more damage - but by here I mean 'extended' in the form of 'multiple minutes' - IE, not going to threaten the pylon timers or the AOE herders, just able to trade licks with Lusca without having to throw poison daggers. 🙂

[Menelruin]

25 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

Valid, but at the same time, what exactly does 'Energy Not Otherwise Specified' do to a target?  🙂

 

In the alternate, a long duration, small but stacking resist debuff would get there - here I am talking each hit leaving a small debuff with a duration in minutes or tens of minutes, such that over an extended fight, the target would take more and more and more damage - but by here I mean 'extended' in the form of 'multiple minutes' - IE, not going to threaten the pylon timers or the AOE herders, just able to trade licks with Lusca without having to throw poison daggers. 🙂

Welp, I guess that makes about as much sense as Sonic lowering damage resist...."Energy burn" status, I guess?

[tidge]

Energy Melee simply needs to be the premier single-target attack set. NO GIMMICKS!

 

 

Unless we decide to replace Stun with something else completely (like a valuable toggle, think Conserve Power from the Energy Mastery Epic pool).

 

In many ways it was Stun that caused the Nerf, because of its effect in PVP.

Edited May 19, 2020 by tidge