Illusion Control for Dominators

[Alchemystic]

1 hour ago, Zepp said:

For reference:

To be very specific, it was an individual opinion about the path that person felt PA should follow (aka argument). It was not an "early concept" as that terminology implies that it was related to actual game development work rather than an individual offering a personal opinion.

 

I am very clear and specific with my language, and if I am wrong I will admit it. However, please refrain from implying that I am twisting or manipulating words.

1) I never said that Dominator's Phantom Army should or shouldn't have taunt at any point
2) You're assuming that the context of 'early concept' strictly refers to hard development and not just potential ideas as I implied.
3) You're stating that an opinion a developer may have means that they're automatically making an argument and taking a side.

If you don't want people to call you out on twisting or manipulating words, maybe stop twisting and manipulating words.
 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Zeraphia]

So I'm a bit confused... does he want to specifically remove the taunt, or is he saying that as of right now if the technology were implemented, the powers don't have taunts in them?

On 1/8/2020 at 11:51 AM, Captain Powerhouse said:

Controllers dont have offensive secondaries, so this would never work for them, but my idea is to make Dom PA use modified versions of the first 2 powers the dominator has. If it's a Ill/Fire dom, the Decoy would have Flares, Incinerate and maybe also Bind. Their powers would not taunt, though. It would go very nicely on hand with the new mirror theme for Decoys.

Also, what is Bind? Does he mean Blind? 

 

I have to ask and just be blunt here, one of the core functions of the phantoms that makes PA decent at group control is the fact they can taunt enemies off of you as a soft control. Taunting the enemies to hit the invincible phantoms is essentially why they exist, if they don't taunt, then they're just terrible low damage vehicles that don't have a lot of purpose and could be actually hindering if say you took Energy Assault and now have to deal with the minions powerbolting enemies. 

 

Essentially what this power would become is 3 voltaic sentinels with lesser damage per phantom. 

 

Bottom line: taunting is CRITICAL to this power's function, change the damage components to whatever you want, change the rest of its functions, but the unkillable pets that taunt is a core staple to how this set functions. I don't think anyone wants the equivalent of T1 unkillable Battle Drone mastermind pets to replace PA.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Zeraphia

[Alchemystic]

43 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

So I'm a bit confused... does he want to specifically remove the taunt, or is he saying that as of right now if the technology were implemented, the powers don't have taunts in them?

 

Bottom line: taunting is CRITICAL to this power's function, change the damage components to whatever you want, change the rest of its functions, but the unkillable pets that taunt is a core staple to how this set functions. I don't think anyone wants the equivalent of T1 unkillable Battle Drone mastermind pets to replace PA.

I'm not against the idea of the unkillable/taunt functionality being kept in, I think its quite core to the power and sets it apart from a being a standard pet. The Phantoms were always intended to draw and manage aggro, but the damage output is what makes them problematic for Dominators, but everything else about the power is fine.

[Captain Powerhouse]

Since I am being quoted a lot: the post that is being quoted is just one of many potential directions for the power. If I was set on thinking that was my definitive preferred approach, I would had already started work on it and it would had been ok a test wave.

 

PA is problematic because not only can it manage aggro too well, but also because it’s basically immortal and easy to sustain perma. The damage is an issue but not as big as the other two factors. It’s the dominators own damage output that makes that a bigger issue than it is for Controllers.
 

Basically,  a Dom replacement of the power would either be less effective at aggro management, or killable, or have a much shorter duration, or an in-between of all that.

 

One thing so am set to do whenever I get there, is to make the Dom version of this power a player clone first (by default use player costume and have some powers from the player assault set) instead of a generic phantom with random attack assortment that happens to be customizable as a look-a-like.

[Zeraphia]

23 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Since I am being quoted a lot: the post that is being quoted is just one of many potential directions for the power. If I was set on thinking that was my definitive preferred approach, I would had already started work on it and it would had been ok a test wave.

 

PA is problematic because not only can it manage aggro too well, but also because it’s basically immortal and easy to sustain perma. The damage is an issue but not as big as the other two factors. It’s the dominators own damage output that makes that a bigger issue than it is for Controllers.
 

Basically,  a Dom replacement of the power would either be less effective at aggro management, or killable, or have a much shorter duration, or an in-between of all that.

 

One thing so am set to do whenever I get there, is to make the Dom version of this power a player clone first (by default use player costume and have some powers from the player assault set) instead of a generic phantom with random attack assortment that happens to be customizable as a look-a-like.

I'm not sure about "easy to sustain perma" especially for a Dominator. Dominators do not benefit from a secondary that gives recharge such as /Rad or /Time to force it to perma. Dominators instead have a direct damaging set. Am I saying it isn't possible? No, but it probably would come with hefty build sacrifice to get there. As a Dominator, you still need to come up with a bare minimum of 400% recharge to make PA permanent. You'd need to full-slot this power, likely take a +recharge alpha, and also slot heavily for recharge bonuses to make this permanent, it comes at a high build cost, if you took Agility to do this, you hinder a lot of your proc options. Controllers on the other hand have a much easier time with this due to those synergizing secondaries (although not impossible to go without them, much harder.) Basically to get PA perma on Doms you're looking at Agility T4 + lots of defense powers taken for LotG mules + lots of 5-piece 10% bonuses, that is NOT light at all, and could easily hinder from slotting up the damage on Dominator attacks / not optimal for DPS.

 

I do see your point though with the aggro management possibly being "too much" but I think it probably should have the basic capability to take the pressure off of you for like GM/AV soloing unless you are specifically against it (I'd just like clarification on if this is what you're trying to avoid). 

 

Thank you for clarifying! 

[...]

6 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

PA is problematic because not only can it manage aggro too well, but also because it’s basically immortal and easy to sustain perma. The damage is an issue but not as big as the other two factors. It’s the dominators own damage output that makes that a bigger issue than it is for Controllers.
 

Basically,  a Dom replacement of the power would either be less effective at aggro management, or killable, or have a much shorter duration, or an in-between of all that.

It sounds like, if dominators ever get PA, it will be a nerfed version. I'm not sure why? Dominator damage is very middle of the road. 

5 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

As a Dominator, you still need to come up with a bare minimum of 400% recharge to make PA permanent. You'd need to full-slot this power, likely take a +recharge alpha, and also slot heavily for recharge bonuses to make this permanent, it comes at a high build cost, if you took Agility to do this, you hinder a lot of your proc options.

Agree. Perma PA on a dom requires loads of recharge set bonuses, agility/spiritual, or both. Illusion control would still offer less "lockdown" than many other control sets (earth, plant). 

[Zepp]

Even if PA "clones" secondary attacks, I would hope that it would only be cosmetic (they maintain Psi damage). Also, Illusion Control relies on aggro management in lieu of control powers. PA, even if it is perma, drops aggro when you re-summon (the old ones disappear and the aggro comes back to you or the highest aggro player/pet before the new ones start generating aggro). Doms will have a more difficult time maintaining pet aggro because their own damage will draw more aggro than a Troller. As such, my position is that PA is not "too good" at drawing aggro, especially if it were ported to Doms. Captain Powerhouse seems to believe that damage is not the issue (I tend to agree). I am seeing the argument for non-minor adjustments to PA as being less and less tenable the more I hear the positions of those that believe that PA is a problem. In other words, your arguments are having the opposite effect and making it more clear that the rationale for eliminating taunt/changing to mezbots/reducing damage are not well founded.
 

• eliminate taunt/reduce aggro? Harder for PA to maintain aggro for a Dom and drops after a minute.
• mezbotization? More effective at mitigation than aggro-management. Harder to balance than the current model.
• reducing damage? This is likely the strongest argument, but the more I hear, the less I feel inclined to support any major reductions.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Zepp

[Tater Todd]

*Sneaks into thread*

 

I don't think a direct port from Controller to Dominators would be that disadvantageous but I can understand why the Devs would want to make set adjustments so Dominators aren't getting shortchanged.  As stated by others, Dominators would constantly out threat/taunt Phantom army especially if it's an AOE/PbAOE focused Dominator.  I agree with Keeping the option to have mirror duplicates.  It's set defining.  When it comes to utility or damage I'm in favor of replacing the taunt in PA with some form of soft control for example a mag 3 KU/KD(now that we have the new KB system in place) or hard control with a short duration.  A chain soft control power is also and idea or maybe a soft control toggle emitting from PA.

Dominators don't do a crazy amount of damage by default so the fear of an Illusion Dominator over performing seems flawed.  Keeping PA unkillable is fine especially considering it's much more difficult for Dominators to achieve perma PA.  Nerfing PA's damage or uptime while keeping Phantasm and Spectral Terror the same as the Controller version would be a huge loss for Dominators.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Tater Todd
For Clarity

[Lazarillo]

On 5/21/2020 at 3:12 PM, Captain Powerhouse said:

it’s basically immortal and easy to sustain perma.

That's a pretty...extreme definition of "easy".  Perma-Phantom Army requires, like, what, double what you need already for Perma-Dom, or so, as far as I recall, doesn't it?

[Zepp]

48 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

That's a pretty...extreme definition of "easy".  Perma-Phantom Army requires, like, what, double what you need already for Perma-Dom, or so, as far as I recall, doesn't it?

Perma-dom is around 122.5%-ish recharge minimum. Perma-PA is around 197.5%-ish recharge minimum. Perma-hasten is around 192.5%-ish recharge for two slot.

I can't remember if there was a secondary that would allow you to perma-PA without FF  and without Hasten.

 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 5/21/2020 at 1:12 PM, Captain Powerhouse said:

Since I am being quoted a lot: the post that is being quoted is just one of many potential directions for the power. If I was set on thinking that was my definitive preferred approach, I would had already started work on it and it would had been ok a test wave.

 

PA is problematic because not only can it manage aggro too well, but also because it’s basically immortal and easy to sustain perma. The damage is an issue but not as big as the other two factors. It’s the dominators own damage output that makes that a bigger issue than it is for Controllers.
 

Basically,  a Dom replacement of the power would either be less effective at aggro management, or killable, or have a much shorter duration, or an in-between of all that.

 

One thing so am set to do whenever I get there, is to make the Dom version of this power a player clone first (by default use player costume and have some powers from the player assault set) instead of a generic phantom with random attack assortment that happens to be customizable as a look-a-like.

Ive been playing an ill/time the last few months largely since this thread to get my own finger on the pulse of Ill, as it had been many a year since I last actively played one. I also love the Dom AT and have a few of various builds leveling atm.

 

So I want to take that recent play experience to engage with this post, what you are saying if I understand you right, and what I at least love and want to see kept in Ill as a whole and PA specifically for a dom.

 

Ok for me what finally made me make an Ill again on HC was the cool new clone thing, never cared for their generic look so much that it was one of the few of my old toons I had zero interest in remaking here on HC, so just want to fit in a big thanks again for that awesome visual update and a big reason for why I think both you devs and we players should want to see this power set in more then one ATs hand. Maybe even one day in the hands of MM as the first customizable mm pets"hint hint".

 

Back to the point pardon that side blabber.

 

So Ill is now basically our "Multiple Man" Power set. That is a big reason why perma PA has become more in vogue then ever before imo. Because now one of the most common things I encounter Ills say and say myself, is I wish they did not die every minute. Ive even had one friend mention seeing my character die all the time weird them out on their support/healer and makes them feel like they are failing in some way.

 

To that end, when you mention the factors you would alter, the ones that are most reasonable to me are making them mortal, and reducing their aggro magnet capacity, since I see Dom as a primary DPS AT and a CC secondary AT, I am fine with making the clones be about DPS and not acting as tanks, and in fact is a great way to differentiate ILL between Dom and Con. People have also mentioned liking an idea put forth at some point, of the pets using the attack powers of whatever 2ndary has been chosen, imo also a spot on idea if possible to do, if not the default powers work just fine so no worries. . Finally, make them a click summon that stays around but that can be healed etc. basically make them mortal persistent dps orientated pets that should be tough enough to not just wither under fire, but need to avoid aggro, and will get ruined in heavy aoe or persistent dot patches.This would make group invis a very useful power for them rather then a dump power, as stealthing your clones would help avoid them taking the aggro they no longer want especially on teams.

 

What I imagine and would want out of an ILL Dom is to jump into the fray as one of a group of my character, each taking its share of aggro, and dealing dmg, and when the fight is over a neat addition would be if I could dismiss them and with each dismissed get a surge of health back.

 

Id then also remove the other 2 pets from the set, Id replace them with illusion themed attacks. 2 attacks, very basic ports/animations and that are 2 weapon attacks, like fire sword and greater fire sword, but they would do that temporary spectral dmg kind of dmg and be illusionary weapons. Bonus if you let us customize their look but make them still all glowy

 

In summary what I am saying is PA should be a dps not tank/aggro magnet power for Doms, but also be persistent. I think the other pet powers should get dropped for a few more attacks to let you be even more active in fights shoulder to shoulder with your clones, and that you wont be a dom tank via them like Cons can with their immortal PA which I think is your main fear.

[Solarverse]

On 5/21/2020 at 4:12 PM, Captain Powerhouse said:

Since I am being quoted a lot: the post that is being quoted is just one of many potential directions for the power. If I was set on thinking that was my definitive preferred approach, I would had already started work on it and it would had been ok a test wave.

 

PA is problematic because not only can it manage aggro too well, but also because it’s basically immortal and easy to sustain perma. The damage is an issue but not as big as the other two factors. It’s the dominators own damage output that makes that a bigger issue than it is for Controllers.
 

Basically,  a Dom replacement of the power would either be less effective at aggro management, or killable, or have a much shorter duration, or an in-between of all that.

 

One thing so am set to do whenever I get there, is to make the Dom version of this power a player clone first (by default use player costume and have some powers from the player assault set) instead of a generic phantom with random attack assortment that happens to be customizable as a look-a-like.

Makes more sense to drop the aggro management from PA completely and leave the rest alone. Reason being; how many times have you hit an illusion target and just kept beating on it? Never, right? So why should the NPC's? I say remove the aggro and let'er rip!

[Tiger Shadow]

5 hours ago, Solarverse said:

how many times have you hit an illusion target and just kept beating on it? 

 

More often than I'd like to admit.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

5 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Makes more sense to drop the aggro management from PA completely and leave the rest alone. Reason being; how many times have you hit an illusion target and just kept beating on it? Never, right? So why should the NPC's? I say remove the aggro and let'er rip!

Personally I think your logic very flawed. We quit doing it due to meta game pov, our characters are not the ones capable of recognizing the difference, and the fact AI will attack decoys and summons, kinda makes that point clear.

 

Besides if we make the PA mortal, dps orientated pets, like a dom should have, then we should then be using our group invis to cloak them to help them survive between CDs of the power.

 

See if we are going to take away their aggro magnet, we can take away their invuln to, by doing that double nerf in their tank aspect, we can then rightly justify an increase to DPS, or persisting longer or possibly until death( see my above idea about dismissing them to heal up after fights). Another thing could be to give them a disorient or confuse effect, to portray the enemy becoming utterly bewildered by numerous copies of the same person.

 

I mean you do get that what your saying literally undermines the entire concept of the new mirror image aspect of PA right? Why would someone be able to instantly discern the difference between us and our clones? Im all for better AI but it should be AI that immerses not takes me out of the game. Some mobs could possess the ability to see through illusions, all for that. the big eyes of the Rul and psi mobs in general would all be reasonable choices for such. But a blanket change to all AI would just be bad design imo.

[Solarverse]

2 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Personally I think your logic very flawed. We quit doing it due to meta game pov, our characters are not the ones capable of recognizing the difference, and the fact AI will attack decoys and summons, kinda makes that point clear.

 

Besides if we make the PA mortal, dps orientated pets, like a dom should have, then we should then be using our group invis to cloak them to help them survive between CDs of the power.

 

See if we are going to take away their aggro magnet, we can take away their invuln to, by doing that double nerf in their tank aspect, we can then rightly justify an increase to DPS, or persisting longer or possibly until death( see my above idea about dismissing them to heal up after fights). Another thing could be to give them a disorient or confuse effect, to portray the enemy becoming utterly bewildered by numerous copies of the same person.

 

I mean you do get that what your saying literally undermines the entire concept of the new mirror image aspect of PA right? Why would someone be able to instantly discern the difference between us and our clones? Im all for better AI but it should be AI that immerses not takes me out of the game. Some mobs could possess the ability to see through illusions, all for that. the big eyes of the Rul and psi mobs in general would all be reasonable choices for such. But a blanket change to all AI would just be bad design imo.

I will only answer your last question because the rest is opinion vs opinion and I don't wish to challenge your opinion. I'm not feeling very argumentative today, lol.  😄   Your last question though, "Why would someone be able to instantly discern the difference between us and our clones?" 

Why would they stand there and beat on the PA's but not you? Wouldn't that beating be more equal if the NPC's can't discern the difference between us and our clones? I'm not saying make the PA's not gain any aggro at all, (even though I did pretty much say that, I just did not mean it quite so literal) I'm saying set the aggro to the same as the aggro level of the Dom so that the aggro is shared, not taken. We can't make them mortal because they do illusion damage which is only temporary damage, so making them mortal, we would have to make that damage permanent as well, right?

I just feel that if we took away their aggro control and put their aggro table along the same lines as the user while leaving everything else about them alone, we would have a lot less sad and disappointed pandas once/if this hits live.

[Patti]

Dominator will generate more taunt with all those attacks than a controller would so up the taunt on dom's phantoms to keep pace.   Like others said the phantoms are a control power with the taunting being the control.   If the dom phantoms deal less damage that's okay because the dom is dealing way more than the controller would.

[Zepp]

As I've said before, reducing PA aggro generation removes a great deal of control from a control set designed around aggro management.

Doms will generate more aggro, which means that their PA needs to keep up. Because their damage is illusory (a large portion is healed) they are only effective for DpS if they can be focused on a single soft target. AVs and GMs last long enough that the illusory damage decreases their damage sufficiently to keep them in line.

Also, while they are good at generating aggro, every minute they despawn and must be resummoned. This means that there is a period where the player has all the aggro and PA has to catch up again. This is sufficient risk/reward to keep PA invulnerable. Even if the recharge were to be decreased (which it ought to be), that gap would still exist. In other words, I believe the opposition to a straight port of Ill is largely unfounded. And while I believe that playing an Ill Dom will be more difficult than most other Dom primaries (especially pre-PA), it will also likely be fun and popular as is. Removing the control aspect of the set (by reducing PA aggro/efficacy) or adding control that doesn't work for the set (sleep would be a horrendous idea) would come close to making the set unplayable, or at least a lot less fun than playing an Ill troller.

[kelika2]

Even if you get what you want you know PA will have reduced damage when ported over.  And spectral wounds only shines because of Containment.  Ill/rads solo so well because they can pull 3 indestructible tanks outta their ass without having to bend over.  Giving all that damage + a secondary with more damage is insane enough.  throw in incarnate powers for -regen and the ability for doms to sometimes hold an AV through the purple triangles.. nah.

 

And imagine the even more damage going out when people find out that 4/6 basilisk's gaze and 2 50++ dmg/mez hamis in Blind is nuts with dominators base damage