Summaries of Henchmen pros/cons?

[Menelruin]

So I know this probably gets asked a lot, but is there a guide somewhere to the advantages and disadvantages of the different kinds of henchmen, and what sort of secondaries tend to synergize best with them?  So far, all I've gathered is:

 

1:  Robots are durable, and Force Field takes that up to 11.

2:  Demons have lots of types of elemental damage.

3:  /Time goes with everything.

4:  /Trick Arrow sucks.

 

My only MM right now is a Bots/FF, because I figured it was the easiest starter choice, and it works thematically.  I tend to try and combine powers that FIT with origins, so that's why I'm curious if, say, having an army of street thugs has a better pairing than chronokinesis.....

[Force Redux]

Here's my 0.2 INF based on my experiences with MMs, from their inception until now.

 

Primaries:

Robotics  - tanky, most damage tied up in Assault Bot, blooms late, has good AoE, but low DPS. This is countered by regen debuffs in Assault Bot's plasma attacks, which is helpful with AVs, but not so much with clearing weaker mobs. Needs ways to mitigate knockback from AssBot's attacks, either with procs or things like Electric Fences. This is a ranged pet set, so with new pet AI they just sit and light up things from a distance. Works best with Secondaries that buff defense, although a solid resistance set will also perform well. It is still a top performer, overall, coming in just after Thugs and Demons. KEY WORDS: TANKY, AOE, CLANKY. 

 

Robotics Secondary Pairings: Recommend with Force Field, Cold, Time, Nature, Electrical Affinity or Dark. 

 

Thugs - top performer (tied with Demons) - also tanky due to Enforcer buffs, but these do not affect the MM (unlike Bots, which will buff the MM). High damage, both ST and AoE (much of the AoE is tied to Arsonist, so you have to keep him alive -easier with the improved pet AI. The damage is more spread out between all the pets, so easier to level up than Bots. Can take more procs in the Enforcers than some sets (-resist, damage procs). Bruiser gets fury as a mini-brute. Arsonist is a mini-Corruptor with scourge. Brute is melee, rest are ranged. Again, new pet AI makes this much more manageable as Brute doesn't wander off too far. Works best IMO with sets that boost defense, but again, they are so good they benefit from almost anything.  Comes with Gang War, which is an excellent power as well as a MM proc mule. KEY WORDS: DAMAGE, AOE, COOL

 

Thugs Secondary Pairings: Recommend with Time, Dark, Thermal, Pain or Cold. 

 

Demons - the other top performer - more resistance based defenses (some of which benefit the MM and team mates), a little bit of self-healing, and lots of -damageresistance to amp up damage. Mixed variety of damage types (fire, cold, toxic) but also makes them a bit tough to proc out their attacks.  Like Thugs, damage is spread out a bit among the pets, making leveling easier. Demon Prince also has some decent controls, particularly his hold which he spams a lot. Mostly ranged, and they benefit from the improved pet AI. Demons are so good they just pair well with almost anything (except Trick Arrow...but then again... does anything?). Has Hell on Earth, which is not as good as Gang War, but is still serviceable and also a proc mule. KEY WORDS: DAMAGE, TOUGH, NOISY

 

Demons Secondary Pairings:  Recommend with Dark, Time, Cold, Thermal, Pain or Nature. 

 

Necromancy - an old, but still true set that allows you to blend damage with control. Lower on the damage scale, and more single target, it offers more control via the Grave Knight's knock up sword attacks and the LIch, who is a mini Dark Miasma controller. They also toss out lots of -ToHit. They damage is concentrated in the Grave Knights, who are excellent and can take the same procs as Enforcers in Thugs (-resist, damage procs). They pets have always been pretty well behaved, and are immune to slows. The Lich tends to hang back while the other pets go forth into melee. Also has a proc mule in Soul Extraction, which is arguably the least powerful of the three proc mule powers (the others being Hell on Earth and Gang War). But it saves you slots on the pets. Lich can also take Clouded Senses damage proc, which works on all his attacks.  Th,e pets lack Lethal resists, but have some exotic resists, and with pet IOs you can get them 35% lethal resist or more anyway. KEY WORDS: CONTROL, DEBUFFS, VOMIT

 

Necromancy Secondary Pairings: Recommend with Dark, Time, Cold, Nature.

 

Beasts - a newer set that is pure melee, all the time. There have been debates over the efficiency of their attack chain, but I played them all the way to T3 incarnate and found them no better or worse with their pauses in attacks than any other set. They are the ONLY set that can self-buff their Defense to soft-cap with Pack Mentality, allowing you to choose other secondarys that you might not consider due to attempts to keep them alive. They also have decent S/L/Cold resists. They also have about 11-12% base Defense. Damage is concentrated more into Dire Wolf, though not as lopsided as Robots; they are also more single target, with Dire Wolf having some AoE. They come with -movement speed debuff attacks that help keep things near them and other than Ninjas, are the fastest pets on the ground that I've used.  Still, you might want to get an Epic or Seconary with some immobilization or control to help the pets keep things close by. Beasts are a bit more prone to Knockback recovery time, so Clarion Destiny or a secondary with KB protection (Electrical Affinity) is helpful, if not mandatory. The nice thing about Beasts is they are always where you expect them to be, since they are all melee. They do not have a proc mule power in Pack Mentality, but if you don't need it to get Defense up there, due to a secondary like Force Field, then you can leave it unused to build +damage and +Crit, which turns beasts into chainsaws. Single Target chainsaws. KEY WORDS: DAMAGE, TOUGH, HOWLING

 

Beast Secondary Pairings: Recommend Kinetics, Time, Cold, Nature, Thermal, Pain, Electric. 

 

Ninjas - my experiences with these are back in Live, as I haven't touched them since Homecoming. They have super high single-target DPS, but almost no real defense, and no resistances. Oni is a poor man's fire corruptor, and does not live up to his peers the Demon Prince or Lich. But they are cool looking. You just have to find a way to keep them alive. They deal mostly Lethal, some Smashing, and some Fire damage. Ninjas do not have a proc mule, their special power is somewhat lacking, in that it is supposed to help set up for criticals but is not as good as it sounds in practice. Ninjas do not do well with resistance Secondarys, they really require something to avoid being hit AT ALL. KEY WORDS: DAMAGE, QUICK, FRAIL

 

Ninjas Secondary Pairings: Recommend Force Fields, Time, Cold. 

 

Mercenaries - my first MM on Live, and it was ultimately a disappointment. They are equipped with lots of narrow cone attacks on long recharges, a suicidal medic, a terrible special power in Serum, and poor defense and resistances. While serviceable, they fall behind other sets that have a more cohesive design. While Ninjas just needs a touch up in Defense, Mercs need a complete overhaul. I would not recommend then for anything but concept. KEY WORDS: DAMAGE, WEAK, BULLET CASINGS

 

Mercenaries Secondary Pairing: Recommend: Force Field, Time, Traps.

 

Disclaimer:

These are my opinions. YMMV. I personally don't care for Storm (too much chaos) or Radiation (slow to activate toggles, grab bag of non-thematic powers) , Traps (generally slow on teams), Poison (no self-heal, slow recharges, small AoE), Trick Arrow (great on Illusion controllers with invulnerable PA, not so good for MM henchmen), Empathy (too much healing, I think Pain works better for MM) and Sonic (no heal, suffers in comparison to Pain/Thermal as a resistance set, plus very long recharge on T9). That isn't to say these can't work, or be fun, but I find them to be less than optimal in order to generally make them a recommendation. But for every one of me, there's some guy or gal loving their Demons/Storm MM. That's how beautiful CoH is. 

Edited May 30, 2020 by Force Redux

[Menelruin]

6 minutes ago, Force Redux said:

Here's my 0.2 INF based on my experiences with MMs, from their inception until now.

 

Primaries:

Robotics  - tanky, most damage tied up in Assault Bot, blooms late, has good AoE, but low DPS. This is countered by regen debuffs in Assault Bot's plasma attacks, which is helpful with AVs, but not so much with clearing weaker mobs. Needs ways to mitigate knockback from AssBot's attacks, either with procs or things like Electric Fences. This is a ranged pet set, so with new pet AI they just sit and light up things from a distance. Works best with Secondaries that buff defense, although a solid resistance set will also perform well. It is still a top performer, overall, coming in just after Thugs and Demons.

 

Robotics Secondary Pairings: Recommend with Force Field, Cold, Time, Nature, Electrical Affinity or Dark. 

 

Thugs - top performer (tied with Demons) - also tanky due to Enforcer buffs, but these do not affect the MM (unlike Bots, which will buff the MM). High damage, both ST and AoE (much of the AoE is tied to Arsonist, so you have to keep him alive -easier with the improved pet AI. The damage is more spread out between all the pets, so easier to level up than Bots. Can take more procs in the Enforcers than some sets (-resist, damage procs). Bruiser gets fury as a mini-brute. Arsonist is a mini-Corruptor with scourge. Brute is melee, rest are ranged. Again, new pet AI makes this much more manageable as Brute doesn't wander off too far. Works best IMO with sets that boost defense, but again, they are so good they benefit from almost anything.  Comes with Gang War, which is an excellent power as well as a MM proc mule. 

 

Thugs Secondary Pairings: Recommend with Time, Dark, Thermal, Pain or Cold. 

 

Demons - the other top performer - more resistance based defenses (some of which benefit the MM and team mates), a little bit of self-healing, and lots of -damageresistance to amp up damage. Mixed variety of damage types (fire, cold, toxic) but also makes them a bit tough to proc out their attacks.  Like Thugs, damage is spread out a bit among the pets, making leveling easier. Demon Prince also has some decent controls, particularly his hold which he spams a lot. Mostly ranged, and they benefit from the improved pet AI. Demons are so good they just pair well with almost anything (except Trick Arrow...but then again... does anything?). Has Hell on Earth, which is not as good as Gang War, but is still serviceable and also a proc mule. 

 

Demons Secondary Pairings:  Recommend with Dark, Time, Cold, Thermal, Pain or Nature. 

 

Necromancy - an old, but still true set that allows you to blend damage with control. Lower on the damage scale, and more single target, it offers more control via the Grave Knight's knock up sword attacks and the LIch, who is a mini Dark Miasma controller. They also toss out lots of -ToHit. They damage is concentrated in the Grave Knights, who are excellent and can take the same procs as Enforcers in Thugs (-resist, damage procs). They pets have always been pretty well behaved, and are immune to slows. The Lich tends to hang back while the other pets go forth into melee. Also has a proc mule in Soul Extraction, which is arguably the least powerful of the three proc mule powers (the others being Hell on Earth and Gang War). But it saves you slots on the pets. Lich can also take Clouded Senses damage proc, which works on all his attacks.  Th,e pets lack Lethal resists, but have some exotic resists, and with pet IOs you can get them 35% lethal resist or more anyway. 

 

Necromancy Secondary Pairings: Recommend with Dark, Time, Cold, Nature.

 

Beasts - a newer set that is pure melee, all the time. There have been debates over the efficiency of their attack chain, but I played them all the way to T3 incarnate and found them no better or worse with their pauses in attacks than any other set. They are the ONLY set that can self-buff their Defense to soft-cap with Pack Mentality, allowing you to choose other secondarys that you might not consider due to attempts to keep them alive. They also have decent S/L/Cold resists. They also have about 11-12% base Defense. Damage is concentrated more into Dire Wolf, though not as lopsided as Robots; they are also more single target, with Dire Wolf having some AoE. They come with -movement speed debuff attacks that help keep things near them and other than Ninjas, are the fastest pets on the ground that I've used.  Still, you might want to get an Epic or Seconary with some immobilization or control to help the pets keep things close by. Beasts are a bit more prone to Knockback recovery time, so Clarion Destiny or a secondary with KB protection (Electrical Affinity) is helpful, if not mandatory. The nice thing about Beasts is they are always where you expect them to be, since they are all melee. They do not have a proc mule power in Pack Mentality, but if you don't need it to get Defense up there, due to a secondary like Force Field, then you can leave it unused to build +damage and +Crit, which turns beasts into chainsaws. Single Target chainsaws. 

 

Beast Secondary Pairings: Recommend Kinetics, Time, Cold, Nature, Thermal, Pain, Electric. 

 

More later, this is what I have for now. 

Thank you, this helps a lot!  I notice you didn't include Sonic Resonance as syngergizing with anything.  Is it not very strong for MM?  I would have though it paired well with Thugs or Demons, from what you wrote about them....

[Force Redux]

Not a fan of /Sonic, but that said almost any MM pairing is serviceable.

 

From a design perspective I like to see resist sets paired with an AoE heal, as damage WILL come in and spot healing with Aid Other is not going to cut it when the AoEs rain in.

 

Defense sets typically can block almost all damage and can resort to spot healing as needed with Aid Other.

 

Time breaks the bank here by offering both -ToHit, Defense (boostable with Power Boost if you like), AND AoE healing. For pet survival this is a huge advantage. 

 

Sonic falls behind Thermal and Pain as a resistance set because of its lack of a heal. I don't feel the status protection is a good exchange, either. It's nice, but managing pet health is your first priority for survival.

 

That said, plenty of folks run and enjoy Sonic, so you're mileage may vary!

[Redlynne]

2 hours ago, Force Redux said:

Ninjas - my experiences with these are back in Live, as I haven't touched them since Homecoming. They have super high single-target DPS, but almost no real defense, and no resistances. Oni is a poor man's fire corruptor, and does not live up to his peers the Demon Prince or Lich. But they are cool looking. You just have to find a way to keep them alive. They deal mostly Lethal, some Smashing, and some Fire damage. Ninjas do not have a proc mule, their special power is somewhat lacking, in that it is supposed to help set up for criticals but is not as good as it sounds in practice. Ninjas do not do well with resistance Secondarys, they really require something to avoid being hit AT ALL. 

 

Ninjas Secondary Pairings: Recommend Force Fields, Time, Cold.

In my opinion, Time Manipulation is the "best fit" for Ninjas (because of the whole "We Be Fast And They Be Slow" angle).

 

As enumerated above, Ninjas have essentially NO PROTECTION TO SPEAK OF when they are "fresh out of the box" even after being equipped/upgraded.  They get a piddling on the leg of Defense and nothing else ... which means (absent support from your secondary/pools) they get hit A LOT and have no resistance to all the damage they're taking.  This means that it is absolutely imperative(!) for you to build a Ninja Mastermind who can extend protection to your Ninjas ... whether that be your Mastermind acting as an Aggro Magnet in Bodyguard Mode, +Defense and/or +Resistance, or a combination of all three together ... AND ALSO be able to heal whatever damage they do take in a timely fashion so you don't have to re-summon and re-equip and re-upgrade them all over again (because that takes time and a huge pile of endurance).

 

Force Field and Cold Domination can supply the necessary +Defense, but they're both lacking on being able to heal damage taken by your Ninjas.  To mitigate this deficiency, you'd need to take Aid Other from the Medicine pool, which is QUITE inferior to any of the AoE Heal options you'd have in any other powerset.  So these secondaries can make Ninjas "tough yet brittle" in that they don't cover both protection AND healing/regeneration all that well in the secondaries.  Cold Domination at least has Frostwork which can be used as a sort of makeshift Heal power in a pinch, but it's still a single target on a long recharge and won't let you heal up all of your Ninjas in a single power use like an AoE Heal would.

 

Dark Miasma offers "inverted Defense" in the form of -ToHit buffing, but it's somewhat dependent on catching everything in the radius and debuffs lose potency as +/- Level differentials bite when dealing with +3 and +4 $Targets (which are often times plentiful in Incarnate content).  Dark Miasma has a Target AoE Heal power, but it needs a $Target to use and it's only a 20ft radius around your Mastermind, meaning that positioning for it isn't always convenient relative to where you and your Ninjas are at any given time.  It also means that you can't use Twilight's Grasp to "top up" your Ninjas AFTER a fight is finished, but would need to use Twilight's Grasp BEFORE the fight is over, with yourself and any Ninjas that need healing being within 20ft of the $Target you're hitting with Twilight's Grasp.  Needless to say, this can get ... finicky ... to manage, particularly in group settings which can be extremely chaotic.  So Dark Miasma is more of a "Hard Mode" secondary to use with Ninjas than some of the other options.  It can be done, don't get me wrong, but I wouldn't recommend it to a Beginner Mastermind who is just learning the ropes.

 

Electrical Affinity would be a somewhat curious combo, since it would allow something akin to neutralization of opposition via debuffing, rather than relying on beefing up the protection on your Ninjas specifically.  I can also imagine that Electrical Affinity would make Tankerminding easier for you on a variety of levels.  You'd also have access to AoE (via chaining) Heals, which could also chain back to yourself.  Faraday Cage becomes your "plant the flag" move determining where you want to fight, and you can use Defensive/GoTo as a way of keeping your Ninjas from wandering/running off too far afield as a way of keeping them within the Faraday Cage and better protected from mez effects.  An interesting option that I would consider for a Beginner Mastermind.

 

Empathy along with Pain Domination can both (obviously) cover the AoE Healing needs for Ninjas, and arguably Pain Domination would be better at this with the 15ft radius Suppress Pain toggle power, but both of these secondaries do basically next nothing to protect your Ninjas from incoming damage ... meaning that they're going to need A LOT of Healing (too much, I would argue).  Of the two, I would say that Pain Domination is superior to Empathy for supporting Ninjas, but neither is truly adequate to the task of keeping Ninjas (who run all over the place at high speed!) upright except under the most favorable and controlled of conditions.  However, if you build for a Tankermind (so +Defense and +Resistance on your Mastermind) and act as a permanent Aggro Magnet for your Ninjas (so they can't pull aggro from you at all), you can be surprisingly successful with either Empathy or Pain Domination ... but only so long as you're able to maintain control of the flow of combat (which in a chaotic team environment, simply doesn't happen).

 

Kinetics is kind of an oddball as a Mastermind secondary, particularly when combined with Ninjas.  Kinetics has only one power that can directly help protect Ninjas, and that Increase Density since it adds some +Resistance (not enough for Ninjas, but it's there).  A lot of what makes Kinetics great for use on PCs has remarkably little use on NPCs like Ninjas ... I'm referring to Recovery buffing, Movement speed buffing and Recharge buffing (all Mastermind Pets are completely immune to both Recharge buffing and Recharge debuffing).  You get two powers that can indirectly help your Ninjas survive in Power Siphon and Fulcrum Shift, since they will do -Damage debuffs to your $Target(s), so your Ninjas will take less damage when hit ... but it's just not enough since both of those powers are debuffs, so you can't use either of them "on demand" in prep before a fight (unless using Stealth+Grant Invisibility to perfectly position yourself and your Ninjas for an alpha strike from Stealth, which doesn't work on $Targets that can see through Stealth).  You also get a Target AoE Heal power in Transfusion which can also apply -Regeneration debuffing (although 1/10th of what Howling Twilight in Dark Miasma can do) so the whole complicated setup of needing to use a $Target to AoE Heal from seen in Dark Miasma happens here too.  Again, it can be made to work, but I also (again) would not recommend it to a Beginner Mastermind who is just learning the ropes, since Kinetics is also a kind of "Hard Mode" playstyle.

 

Nature Affinity would make for a really interesting combination with Ninjas, mainly because it's possible to blend together a mixture of AoE Healing, AoE +Regeneration, Target AoE -ToHit and -Damage debuffing, Absorb shielding and even a PBAoE Hold Aura (that needs to stack, but it works).  So the powerset is light on added protection but gangbusters on being able to cover everything else you'd want to keep your Ninjas alive and kicking.  Nature Affinity is also relatively easy to learn but with enough complexities of usage to be difficult to master, making it a compelling option for a Beginner Mastermind.  However, a lot of how you'd want to use Nature Affinity involves "plant the flag" stationary strategies which may not necessarily be optimal for a primary powerset like Ninjas.

 

Poison and Trick Arrow are just all debuffs and nothing but the debuffs ... although Poison does have Alkaloid as a single target heal.  Pretty much the only way to use either of these secondaries with Ninjas is to go all in on Aggro Magnet Tankerminding so the Ninjas take as little damage as possible.  Poison at least can apply enough -Damage debuffing to be actually useful as a mitigation strategy that would also help your Ninjas survived.  I would consider blending Ninjas with Poison to be a "Hard Mode" style of play ... while mixing Ninjas with Trick Arrow is just "Stupid Mode" because Trick Arrow does next to nothing for your survival, let alone the survival of your Ninjas, and you'll need to rely on pool powers (like Aid Other+Aid Self) for survival.  I can't honestly recommend either for use with Ninjas, but Trick Arrow is simply the absolute WORST secondary to pair with Ninjas (and often times the worst secondary for any Mastermind primary due to the underperformance of its debuffs).

 

Radiation Emission is a very compelling option because it offers better survival by debuffing while also having an AoE Heal power.  There are some Target AoE toggles to juggle here, but they can be used as alpha strikes to "get the party started" and help your Mastermind act as an Aggro Magnet for a Tankermind style of play.  I'd rate this secondary as being a beginner to intermediate difficulty to learn and use well, which can become rather successful when played skillfully.

 

Sonic Resonance simply does not "resonate" all that well with Ninjas.  The +Resistance is helpful, but without a Heal power to go with it means that the Medicine pool basically becomes mandatory to be able to recoup from incoming damage.  The status protection is "nice to have" but ultimately not a game changer.  And since Ninjas are a mixed ranged+melee set of pets, being able to prevent melee contact with Ninjas does more harm (to you) than good, since keeping Ninjas out of melee range deprives them of their most damaging attacks.  So Sonic Resonance winds up working at cross-purposes to what you're really wanting and needing to support Ninjas.

 

Storm Summoning is the power of CHAOS applied to the battlefield.  You can use Gale and HERDicane to neutralize entire swaths of the battlefield.  Steamy Mist can hide yourself and your Ninjas so as to make ambushes (you'll still want to cast Grant Invisibility on your Ninjas though).  Freezing Rain is "caltrops from above" ... while Tornado and Lightning Storm are additional damage dealers that can also be highly disruptive.  You even get a single target Heal power in O₂ Boost.  Powerful and versatile with IOs and procs slotted into it, Ninja/Storm can potentially be a powerhouse if you learn how to ... guide ... the chaos it unleashes to your advantage, so I'd rate this combination as being good for intermediate and above gameplay.

 

Thermal Radiation basically takes Sonic Resonance and repackages it ... in a way that is actually useful when blending with Ninjas.  You have a PBAoE Heal in Warmth that instantly (as of Level 1) makes this secondary better for Ninjas than Sonic Resonance, but you also get Cauterize that is a single target Ally Heal.  Thermal Radiation is this sort of curious mashup of Sonic Resonance and Pain Domination, which actually works somewhat decently with Ninjas.  It's not a perfect fit because of the Defense vs Resistance side of things, but it's still good enough to be used by a Beginner.

 

Traps will play a lot like Electrical Affinity and Nature Affinity, in that there is a very definite "plant the flag" aspect to how Traps get used.  The secondary is something of a grab bag of everything, but the secondary really shines when you're "allowed" to fight pitched "static" battles that don't move around that much.  Since a lot of Traps involves "summoning" various stuffs and effects, the secondary has a sort of "rhythm" to how it wants to be played, and so long as you can get into that "groove" you'll be fine.  As soon as you get knocked off your game, or need to move more often than you'd otherwise like, you start leaving your buffs/debuffs behind you as the battlefield moves from spawn to spawn (very common in team and league settings).  Another secondary that can be somewhat forgiving to beginners when they're soloing but doesn't necessarily scale all that well in fast moving team contexts.

 

Time Manipulation is ... in my not so humble opinion ... the PERFECT FIT secondary for Ninjas.  It basically does everything you need ... PBAoE Heal (on demand), -ToHit debuffing, AoE +Defense and +ToHit buffing (the latter being VERY important to Pets!), in addition to +Regeneration buffing among other things (like Slow and -Defense and -Resistance debuffing!).  Time Manipulation just BRINGS IT ALL and gives you everything you need to make Ninjas "sturdy" and keep them alive, and it benefits EVEN MORE from Power Boost buffing than a lot of other secondaries due to the diversity of effects Time Manipulation brings to bear (both offensively and defensively).  I've even been known to have some thoughts on the subject from time to time.  HIGHEST possible recommendation for any Mastermind who wants to play with Ninjas (even if I do say so myself).

Edited May 30, 2020 by Redlynne
correction

[Force Redux]

Excellent post @Redlynne! Small correction, Dark Miasma's heal is centered on the caster, so it is easy to position to heal your pets (particularly with the new and improved AI). I still prefer /Dark with tougher pets than Ninjas, however. 

 

Will second the choice for /Time as the secondary of choice for Ninjas. It offers everything you need. But its so awesome that is the case for any Primary you pair it with. 

Edited May 30, 2020 by Force Redux

[Redlynne]

6 minutes ago, Force Redux said:

Small correction, Dark Miasma's heal is centered on the caster, so it is easy to position to heal your pets (particularly with the new and improved AI).

Edit done.

[Riverdusk]

4 hours ago, Menelruin said:

Thank you, this helps a lot!  I notice you didn't include Sonic Resonance as syngergizing with anything.  Is it not very strong for MM?  I would have though it paired well with Thugs or Demons, from what you wrote about them....

I find it pairs very well with Necro actually.  It can be a long road, but once you throw in some extra resistance on top from incarnate powers (resilient and even the bare minimum 5% you are guaranteed with barrier) you can get all your pets to 87%-90% resistance to all (except psi).  Psi rests at about 66% minimum (bit lower for the lich).  Note that psi is a hole in sonic (and thermal), and that necro and bots are the only two pets that have some built in psi resistance as far as I've noticed to help cover that particular hole at least somewhat.   Bots/sonic could also be pretty amazing, but they lack a melee oriented pet to use as a disruption field target.  A grave knights is perfect to throw disruption field on.

 

Barrier also gives zombies some defense (along with maneuvers and pet IO's of course) and as noted they also have a ton of tohit debuffs they toss around (go diamagnetic interface if you really want to supercharge that).  So, they can quickly end up "effectively" defense capped (except against AV's who resist it of course) as well.  Every pet can then heal itself through life drain (not a ton, but usually enough to handle the small % of damage that gets through).  You also get a self heal in necro that helps make up for the absence of a heal in sonic, which is another point that makes the pairing nice in my book.

 

Honestly the biggest headache leveling this combo up was endurance, moreso than the pets being especially squishy.  Especially since I also like to actually attack when I use necro, throwing out glooms and life drains for myself.  I managed to eventually get endurance under control with IO slotting and the +end accolades, but you could also go cardiac and still get most of the extra resistance boost.

 

I do agree with @Force Redux that time, cold, and nature also are good choices for necro though and his summary of all the sets is excellent!

 

Can see Necro/Sonic discussed more here: 

 

 

 

[Coyote]

6 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Kinetics is kind of an oddball as a Mastermind secondary, particularly when combined with Ninjas.  Kinetics has only one power that can directly help protect Ninjas, and that Increase Density since it adds some +Resistance (not enough for Ninjas, but it's there).  A lot of what makes Kinetics great for use on PCs has remarkably little use on NPCs like Ninjas ... I'm referring to Recovery buffing, Movement speed buffing and Recharge buffing (all Mastermind Pets are completely immune to both Recharge buffing and Recharge debuffing).  You get two powers that can indirectly help your Ninjas survive in Power Siphon and Fulcrum Shift, since they will do -Damage debuffs to your $Target(s), so your Ninjas will take less damage when hit ... but it's just not enough since both of those powers are debuffs, so you can't use either of them "on demand" in prep before a fight (unless using Stealth+Grant Invisibility to perfectly position yourself and your Ninjas for an alpha strike from Stealth, which doesn't work on $Targets that can see through Stealth).  You also get a Target AoE Heal power in Transfusion which can also apply -Regeneration debuffing (although 1/10th of what Howling Twilight in Dark Miasma can do) so the whole complicated setup of needing to use a $Target to AoE Heal from seen in Dark Miasma happens here too.  Again, it can be made to work, but I also (again) would not recommend it to a Beginner Mastermind who is just learning the ropes, since Kinetics is also a kind of "Hard Mode" playstyle.

 

I'm making a NinKin work so far, but I'll agree with the concept that it's DIFFERENT from how you expect a MM to play. It's more recommended for someone with multiple MMs who wants to play something different.

 

The plan was as follows:

1) Ninjas have no defense

2) Adding some defense to Ninjas is no easier than adding defense to the Mastermind... and funneling attacks through the MM splits the damage so that you don't get the Genin constantly 1-shot.

3) Funneling damage through the MM allows you to limit it with set bonuses, Tough, and an epic Resist shield, which is probably more total Defense/Resists than you can add to the Ninjas, plus you're higher level than the Genin & Jounin, so you're harder to hit and damage. (downside is that mezzing and debuffing you has a bigger effect than doing it to a henchman).

Therefore, in conclusion... the build should work if you slot Provoke well enough and have a macro to call the henchmen near you several times a fight (because their "Defense" is to have you Provoke aggro away from them). This is a very different playstyle from most MMs, which is why it's not recommended as a first MM.

 

Notes: calling henchmen to you and then pulling aggro to you clusters them up nicely for AoEs. But AoEs don't usually do as much damage, and they also end up clustered for Transfusion, and their best Defense will be against AoEs. Genin running after a target will be the #1 reason for their death, and often yours if they aggroed another spawn.

[Strawberry]

On 5/30/2020 at 5:01 PM, Riverdusk said:

I find it pairs very well with Necro actually.  It can be a long road, but once you throw in some extra resistance on top from incarnate powers (resilient and even the bare minimum 5% you are guaranteed with barrier) you can get all your pets to 87%-90% resistance to all (except psi).  Psi rests at about 66% minimum (bit lower for the lich).  Note that psi is a hole in sonic (and thermal), and that necro and bots are the only two pets that have some built in psi resistance as far as I've noticed to help cover that particular hole at least somewhat.   Bots/sonic could also be pretty amazing, but they lack a melee oriented pet to use as a disruption field target.  A grave knights is perfect to throw disruption field on.

 

Barrier also gives zombies some defense (along with maneuvers and pet IO's of course) and as noted they also have a ton of tohit debuffs they toss around (go diamagnetic interface if you really want to supercharge that).  So, they can quickly end up "effectively" defense capped (except against AV's who resist it of course) as well.  Every pet can then heal itself through life drain (not a ton, but usually enough to handle the small % of damage that gets through).  You also get a self heal in necro that helps make up for the absence of a heal in sonic, which is another point that makes the pairing nice in my book.

 

Honestly the biggest headache leveling this combo up was endurance, moreso than the pets being especially squishy.  Especially since I also like to actually attack when I use necro, throwing out glooms and life drains for myself.  I managed to eventually get endurance under control with IO slotting and the +end accolades, but you could also go cardiac and still get most of the extra resistance boost.

 

I do agree with @Force Redux that time, cold, and nature also are good choices for necro though and his summary of all the sets is excellent!

 

Can see Necro/Sonic discussed more here: 

 

 

 

I was going to come to this post to say the same thing. While /Sonic definitely has its own pros/cons and has trouble pairing with certain primaries, it works excellently with Necro and would fully recommend it.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Strawberry

[Nyghtmaire]

Agree fully with @Strawberryand @Riverdusk. Level 32 is the point of transformation where the Necro pets start healing themselves. Also, the change to the pet AI keeps the Lich at a good distance to hit many, many mobs with its cones. So much so that slotting -ToHit starts to become a little more valuable. The diagmagnetic recommendation is solid as well. That and the advice to slot Overwhelming Force KD proc in the tier 1 helps to layer increasing levels of mitigation parallel to the hefty resistance levels. 
 

Overall, great summary here.

[Menelruin]

On 5/30/2020 at 4:01 PM, Riverdusk said:

I find it pairs very well with Necro actually.  It can be a long road, but once you throw in some extra resistance on top from incarnate powers (resilient and even the bare minimum 5% you are guaranteed with barrier) you can get all your pets to 87%-90% resistance to all (except psi).  Psi rests at about 66% minimum (bit lower for the lich).  Note that psi is a hole in sonic (and thermal), and that necro and bots are the only two pets that have some built in psi resistance as far as I've noticed to help cover that particular hole at least somewhat.   Bots/sonic could also be pretty amazing, but they lack a melee oriented pet to use as a disruption field target.  A grave knights is perfect to throw disruption field on.

 

Barrier also gives zombies some defense (along with maneuvers and pet IO's of course) and as noted they also have a ton of tohit debuffs they toss around (go diamagnetic interface if you really want to supercharge that).  So, they can quickly end up "effectively" defense capped (except against AV's who resist it of course) as well.  Every pet can then heal itself through life drain (not a ton, but usually enough to handle the small % of damage that gets through).  You also get a self heal in necro that helps make up for the absence of a heal in sonic, which is another point that makes the pairing nice in my book.

 

Honestly the biggest headache leveling this combo up was endurance, moreso than the pets being especially squishy.  Especially since I also like to actually attack when I use necro, throwing out glooms and life drains for myself.  I managed to eventually get endurance under control with IO slotting and the +end accolades, but you could also go cardiac and still get most of the extra resistance boost.

 

I do agree with @Force Redux that time, cold, and nature also are good choices for necro though and his summary of all the sets is excellent!

 

Can see Necro/Sonic discussed more here: 

 

 

 

Hmm, maybe I'll have to actually level up my David Pumpkins character after all.....

[Frostweaver]

Don't underestimate beasts/Time either. Mostly because the personal buffs allow you to stay in the middle of the action, where your pets are, more effectively and safely than most other sets.

Also, If you are soloing more than anything else, Traps becomes vastly more useful, although you DO want to consider it more of a set without a heal than waste a slot on the travesty that is triage beacon. Also, shield drone is one of the best defenses in the game, providing both high defense AND status protection... at the cost of keeping an eye on it. With the decent global recharge most AT's obtain at higher level, the 'debuff pet' acid mortar is easily there whenever you need it, and you don't have to sweat about anchors and the like with poison trap... it's one of the best debuffs in the game, and is generally up at the beginning of every fight even on fast teams.

[tidge]

On 5/30/2020 at 1:26 PM, Redlynne said:

Traps will play a lot like Electrical Affinity and Nature Affinity, in that there is a very definite "plant the flag" aspect to how Traps get used.  The secondary is something of a grab bag of everything, but the secondary really shines when you're "allowed" to fight pitched "static" battles that don't move around that much.  Since a lot of Traps involves "summoning" various stuffs and effects, the secondary has a sort of "rhythm" to how it wants to be played, and so long as you can get into that "groove" you'll be fine.  As soon as you get knocked off your game, or need to move more often than you'd otherwise like, you start leaving your buffs/debuffs behind you as the battlefield moves from spawn to spawn (very common in team and league settings).  Another secondary that can be somewhat forgiving to beginners when they're soloing but doesn't necessarily scale all that well in fast moving team contexts.

I have a Bots/Traps MM that I mostly solo; I find this to be a pretty good pairing as the Bots are inherently slow at clearing large spawns so the AoE debuffs/control from Caltrops/Acid Mortar/Poison Trap help out quite a bit. This does require investing into KB->KD for the Bots so as to not scatter enemies everywhere.

 

At endgame, I respec-ed into Triage Beacon (for set bonuses, and for solo 'tankerminding') but it is an easy power to skip while leveling. My final build skips the final three powers in Traps. I love the Seeker Drones, but they didn't fit with my end-game play style. Trip Mind and Detonator simply don't do enough (for me, YMMV) and are too niche to bother with (again, IMO). I hate having to take Web Grenade, but with moderate levels of Recharge Caltrops/Acid Mortar/Poison Trap/Seeker Drones can be available frequently enough to keep up with even fast-moving teams.

 

In my build I also invested in primary attacks (after lvl 30) for more AoE Knockdown and -Res, but the Endurance management is a serious issue when trying to take such an active role in the offense.

 

[Force Redux]

Would there be any interest in my writing up a more polished summary of the MM primaries with incorporated comments from you folks? 

[Menelruin]

8 hours ago, Force Redux said:

Would there be any interest in my writing up a more polished summary of the MM primaries with incorporated comments from you folks? 

I'd love it!  It's especially helpful to know what the relative advantages and disadvantages of the different primaries are!

Edited June 3, 2020 by Menelruin

[tremor3258]

14 hours ago, tidge said:

This does require investing into KB->KD for the Bots so as to not scatter enemies everywhere.

 

Pre IO on live I found myself grabbing patron powers with AOE Immobilization to deal with that, was as night and day as hitting 32 was. Assault bot loves knocking stuff around

[Crysis]

On 5/30/2020 at 11:39 AM, Force Redux said:

Demons are so good they just pair well with almost anything (except Trick Arrow...but then again... does anything?).

QFT

 

The only 50 I ever T4’d out all incarnate powers (on LIVE when there were no shortcuts), used all ATO’s, 18-24 purples, two Winter Sets AND Hami-O’s and STILL ended up melting down to strip all IO’s and deleted in disgust.

 

Trick Arrow needs serious, serious work on a MM.  Its hard to gimp Demons but.....this will do it.

[Force Redux]

5 hours ago, Crysis said:

QFT

 

The only 50 I ever T4’d out all incarnate powers (on LIVE when there were no shortcuts), used all ATO’s, 18-24 purples, two Winter Sets AND Hami-O’s and STILL ended up melting down to strip all IO’s and deleted in disgust.

 

Trick Arrow needs serious, serious work on a MM.  Its hard to gimp Demons but.....this will do it.

Sounds like you really tried to make that work! I've only ever enjoyed TA in my Illusion controller, where it seemed to work well enough... Mostly because is Illusion's strengths. On a MM...😕😕

[Coyote]

I think TA can work well with Robots, Illusion, and Mind Control. Maybe Earth Control. And that's about it, in the entire game. Otherwise it's really lackluster with basically anything else. Even with those, I don't think it'll work as well as Storm, but given that Storm is one of the best buff/debuff sets, that may not be a fair comparison.

[Dixa]

On 5/30/2020 at 9:44 AM, Force Redux said:

Not a fan of /Sonic, but that said almost any MM pairing is serviceable.

 

From a design perspective I like to see resist sets paired with an AoE heal, as damage WILL come in and spot healing with Aid Other is not going to cut it when the AoEs rain in.

 

Defense sets typically can block almost all damage and can resort to spot healing as needed with Aid Other.

 

Time breaks the bank here by offering both -ToHit, Defense (boostable with Power Boost if you like), AND AoE healing. For pet survival this is a huge advantage. 

 

Sonic falls behind Thermal and Pain as a resistance set because of its lack of a heal. I don't feel the status protection is a good exchange, either. It's nice, but managing pet health is your first priority for survival.

 

That said, plenty of folks run and enjoy Sonic, so you're mileage may vary!

status protection shouldn't even be considered anymore. you can buy it for an hour at a time on these servers. 

[Dixa]

On 6/1/2020 at 11:49 PM, Frostweaver said:

Don't underestimate beasts/Time either. Mostly because the personal buffs allow you to stay in the middle of the action, where your pets are, more effectively and safely than most other sets.

Also, If you are soloing more than anything else, Traps becomes vastly more useful, although you DO want to consider it more of a set without a heal than waste a slot on the travesty that is triage beacon. Also, shield drone is one of the best defenses in the game, providing both high defense AND status protection... at the cost of keeping an eye on it. With the decent global recharge most AT's obtain at higher level, the 'debuff pet' acid mortar is easily there whenever you need it, and you don't have to sweat about anchors and the like with poison trap... it's one of the best debuffs in the game, and is generally up at the beginning of every fight even on fast teams.

too many people OVERestimate beasts/anything because of some pylon test some 'feeling' or anecdote. 

 

it's a purely single target set, most of it's damage is in the tier 1 making it horribly nerfed to all hell against anything higher level than you and you lose their single dps edge - the ability to crit - the minute you hit fortify pack.

 

the top performing sets regardless of secondary is going to be thugs and demons. on the pylon, thugs SHOULD be edging out demons because all of it's damage comes from the tier 2 and tier 3 pets whereas for demons it's mostly in the tier 1 and 2. but what sets these two apart is their level 18 powers which give you a place to park practically all of the pet aoe aura's. without having to nerf the damage, accuracy, sustain and procability (is that a word? it is now!) of your actual pets. 

 

secondary can vary. I will say that when you consider your secondary you need to also understand that at it's core, this game does not have a defensive set that does not have one or more mob groups in the game that can hard counter it. there are two exceptions, and these exceptions only work with demons - EA and Thermal.

 

Time is great, but time melts to mobs with high tohit buffs or mobs that can quickly stack several hig mag stuns on you (F malta, seriously) and because the set has no defense debuff resistance, is very prone to cascading defense failure vs. mobs group that may have no +tohit but do have -defense debuffs on one of their attacks. only one has to land to start the cascade.

 

if all you care about is pew pew, /storm is the secondary to go with. 

 

you can buy status protection from the p2w vendor, so there is no need to even consider that in your decision making (except malta, cause really man, F gunslingers). 

 

I have only been able to take one MM combination through the maria Jenkins av arc (blue side arc with tons of av's of all shapes and sizes) on 8/4 without having a single pet death, and it was a demons/thermal. This was before ea. While I believe EA would be tougher, EA does not have the offensive punch that thermal does through it's debuffs. which is too bad, because the only time I lost a pet was when I dismissed it to replace it when it would get knocked back and stuck in some invisible rock on the floor. Faraday cage's -kb solves that and on paper should be glorious as the absorb is just as good as the nature absorb but it's cooldown is practically nothing. I do know that If I were to make an mm that exclusively grouped today it would be EA. target your tier 1's for the absorb and just let them go crazy. 

 

so bottom line:

 

highest damage in a vacuum primary: tie thugs or demons

 

toughest primary in a vacuum: demons. no, not bots. DEMONS

 

highest damage combo so far:  demons/storm on the pylon, in actual practice it's going to be thugs/storm because of collision, pet size and the bruiser being a brute. demons do their highest damage if all of the pets can be in melee range. on smaller targets this won't happen. the pylon is massive, so it skews practical results.

 

toughest combo: demons/ea. NO, NOT bots/ff due to cascading defense failure which can be pretty common as you turn the difficulty up and how many mob groups have even minor +tohit buffs. For me, toughest combo is one that has the potential to not lose a single pet due to mob damage and the absorb in EA puts it over the top especially vs. mobs that have autohit aoes. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Dixa

[TheSpiritFox]

On 6/2/2020 at 1:49 AM, Frostweaver said:

Don't underestimate beasts/Time either. Mostly because the personal buffs allow you to stay in the middle of the action, where your pets are, more effectively and safely than most other sets.

Also, If you are soloing more than anything else, Traps becomes vastly more useful, although you DO want to consider it more of a set without a heal than waste a slot on the travesty that is triage beacon. Also, shield drone is one of the best defenses in the game, providing both high defense AND status protection... at the cost of keeping an eye on it. With the decent global recharge most AT's obtain at higher level, the 'debuff pet' acid mortar is easily there whenever you need it, and you don't have to sweat about anchors and the like with poison trap... it's one of the best debuffs in the game, and is generally up at the beginning of every fight even on fast teams.

Triage beacon is awesome and putting an absorb proc in it means it can proc on anything that's taken damage in the radius up to 255 targets. Slotted out in a high recharge build you can stack 2 of them on top of each other which is a metric ton of regeneration in an AOE. Triage beacon is awesome and absolutely worth taking and 6 slotting, any sane Traps MM has the room and slots to do it and like what else are you gonna take? Trip mines take forever to set up and are interruptable, detonator is hot dogshit. 

 

Do not listen to this man. I love Triage beacon, especially in a solo or duo where you're not going to be like, steamrolling through content for a long while and if you turn it up enough in difficulty, at all. In a duo where you're not like basically waiting to drop triage beacon during big fights but can set up  your traps base and pull mobs into it from range, triage beacon more than pulls it's weight. It is not as effective as a direct heal cast for cast, but stacking two of these things during an AV fight can easily be the difference between dead pets and not dead pets. 

[Dixa]

when a healing proc goes off in triage beacon, it does not affect everyone in range. it may affect one or 2 or maybe 3. 

 

It used to affect everyone, but when they changed nearly every single proc io's to ppm it changed a lot of things. as an example - controllers used to do nutjob damage with their aoe roots by stacking a ton of damage procs. it would hit every single target that got rooted. today? 1, maybe 2. 

 

triage beacon is overpowered on the other server, but traps in general is god tier there.

[Frostweaver]

7 hours ago, Dixa said:

when a healing proc goes off in triage beacon, it does not affect everyone in range. it may affect one or 2 or maybe 3. 

 

It used to affect everyone, but when they changed nearly every single proc io's to ppm it changed a lot of things. as an example - controllers used to do nutjob damage with their aoe roots by stacking a ton of damage procs. it would hit every single target that got rooted. today? 1, maybe 2. 

 

triage beacon is overpowered on the other server, but traps in general is god tier there.

Exactly, I used to LOVE Triage beacon, but now? with my thugs/traps it is an absolute waste of a slot. Rebirth core is incredibly useful, does it a thousand times better, and what kind of crazy person would exemplar into something that their pets cannot survive easily?
 

 

8 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said:

Triage beacon is awesome and putting an absorb proc in it means it can proc on anything that's taken damage in the radius up to 255 targets. Slotted out in a high recharge build you can stack 2 of them on top of each other which is a metric ton of regeneration in an AOE. Triage beacon is awesome and absolutely worth taking and 6 slotting, any sane Traps MM has the room and slots to do it and like what else are you gonna take? Trip mines take forever to set up and are interruptable, detonator is hot dogshit. 

 

Do not listen to this man. I love Triage beacon, especially in a solo or duo where you're not going to be like, steamrolling through content for a long while and if you turn it up enough in difficulty, at all. In a duo where you're not like basically waiting to drop triage beacon during big fights but can set up  your traps base and pull mobs into it from range, triage beacon more than pulls it's weight. It is not as effective as a direct heal cast for cast, but stacking two of these things during an AV fight can easily be the difference between dead pets and not dead pets. 

This is uninformed. The only time you turn up non-ae content is to prove a challenge. You NEVER turn up exemplar content unless you are an idiot, youtuber, challenge farmer, or farming debt badges. High level content is a breeze with rebirth core.

Traps is a non-heal set post proc changes. I wish that were otherwise, but to be fair, a better heal would make an already-incredible set brutally overpowered and a nerf magnet...in fact, it was one of the reasons proc firing was nerfed.
The only time triage beacon is even remotely useful is when
A. You screw up badly, lost all your pets, all your teammates, and the only one beating on +4 romulus is the stone tanker while you try to clear up a party wipe.

B. You are specifically in a rikti invasion or mothership raid. (meanwhile a quarter of the raid is popping everyone to full health every 1.2 seconds)
C. You are soloing an AV (instead of an EB) and you aren't using the rest of your set to make the fight go faster, you have a crappy build, AND you don't have a clue what MM commands actually do.
D. you are trying to do a Crazy challenge, and your build is specially tuned for that purpose. You succeed in the challenge, but your build is almost useless for general utility or playing for anyone else. Not many people are trying to do a MOITF with a petless mastermind solo at boosted mob mez within 1 hour 45 minutes. Your build can do it with triage beacon and double gang war. great. No one else can do it right now, or they simply don't care enough to try. Hold that medal proudly (I actually have that medal) you will be unchallenged for a LONG time.

Nope, not going to pick a power that is only useful for those three situations that never happen.
EVERY set has a few crap powers... even Time. Be happy that a set with the godlike strength of Traps has only two.

Note: You seriously should reconsider the personal insults. No one here cares about the size of your e-peen

Edited June 4, 2020 by Frostweaver