So...what's this I hear about changes to TW?

[Zeraphia]

7 hours ago, nihilii said:

Balance by inconvenience is pretty bad. Some people don't mind Momentum at all and so they get their free cake and eat it too. Some of us dislike Momentum so we live through the pain to enjoy being overpowered. 😛

 

But there's another problem, even if you accept the argument TW needs to excel at something: TW excels at *everything* or close to it compared to other melee powersets, at least in pure performance metrics.

It has:

- best burst damage

- best ST DPS

- near best AoE DPS

- much of its AoE DPS can be dealt as a side effect of its ST DPS. TW is the best at this.

- best native -RES

- best +DEF, as strong as other options and tied to a cone attack whereas Divine Avalanche type powers are typically ST

- near best if not outright best IO/proc slotting options (Achilles Heel, Fury of the Gladiator, and generally high recharge powers giving high proc chances)

 

I don't think anyone is arguing TW performance should be strictly equal to a standard set with no special mechanic, given the need to manage Momentum. But TW performance probably shouldn't be twice as good as most other melee options.

 

Momentum is a can of worms and a half, too, because its very nature means you will have dramatically superior performance if you optimize around it. Jim Minmaxer running the FT -> RA -> CB -> FT -> AoE -> CB attack chain is on another planet as Joe Casual who's idea of efficient Momentum is popping Build Up then going through the higher damage attacks in succession, slowly tabbing through targets and moving at base run speed to them.

 

Don't get me wrong, Joe is still going to push out some impressive damage above normal powersets, because TW attacks are actually better than regular attacks on a power per power basis*. but likely, he'll feel like TW is "fast fast fast... slow, slow slow slow slow". Whereas for Jim, there's only one slow attack every 10 seconds. It makes for a much wider gap than traditional powersets.
 

*Extra emphasis on that: TW, without any Momentum, is actually a competitive powerset (if we assume Follow Through and Whirling Smash could be used, and give them, say, a 2 second animation). It even has better DPE overall.

You are 100% correct, but I have to chime in with this unfortunate fact:

 

The game is not balanced around DPAS. If they started balancing around that, this game would need so many different things to be balanced from the ground up that it would be a patch so sweepingly massive that CoH wouldn't even be the game recognized as what it is anymore. For that particular reason, I don't think they can balance around it for momentum. Now that said...

 

Speaking from Scrapper base damage perspectives:

TW's base attacks not factoring momentum are egregiously higher than every other set in a variety of places. 

Rend armor is on the high end for a ST heavy hitter but not unprecedented... GPB and Devastating Blow are higher than this power. 

Whirling Smash is on the higher end for a PBAoE (not the highest) but it is locked behind momentum not just free to use to open a crowd without Build Momentum therefore I think it's fine.

TW's Defensive Sweep being OP, to which I agree but I don't know how to go about that in "balancing" because it's rather unprecedented and is a mixed bag where some characters (particularly those with an armor secondary) will appreciate it while those who are already min-maxed def incarnate softcapped (SR) may not view it as that big of a boon... although I can definitely see a decrease in its defense values or making it so you can only stack it 1-2 times.

Crushing Blow is on the higher end for a T2 but it's not completely crazy it is close to Rad's, but I could see this being taken down to ~100 damage base.

Follow Through is locked behind momentum and only about 10-50% higher than other secondary harder hitter ST hits (Shin Breaker 0 combo, Crippling Axe Kick, Jawbreaker, etc.) I can see this being tuned down to 120-130 damage though.

Titan Sweep is on the higher end again for a cone but it's not stand-out for another other than its radius, it is higher than most cones, but not by a ton, I think this one is fine.

AoD... it is the highest damaging high-end cone in the game by 30% to the next comparable cone, however, it is does have a higher recharge (Frost 146 damage and 11s versus AoD 186 damage 20s) (Crowd Control 100 damage and 12s versus AoD 186 damage 20s) so I'd say it should be reduced to approximately 140-150 damage.

 

Those two IMO need the "balancing" the most statistically compared to other sets, now as a whole, the "goodies" TW has are definitely innumerable, but from the damage perspective that is what would need tweaking based on what they can by criterion balance around without having to rewrite the game from ground-up.

 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Zeraphia

[Twisted Toon]

18 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Have the current devs stated so? I don't recall that post. Anything the old devs had to say on the topic became null and void as soon as the SSPS was set up by Leandro.

 

18 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

Show me the link where the Homecoming devs have stated any change to that standard.  

I would figure that since the HC Devs have stated many times that they are trying to keep the feel of CoH:HC as close to live as possible, then the game should be balanced around SOs. since that was how the live version was balanced.

 

I could be wrong. I could be inferring incorrectly the implication that they put forth.

[Sovera]

4 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

Any attempt to use IOs as a baseline will have poor results.  Regardless of which IO level you determine to be optimal, once scalars are modified accordingly, you're going to have a lot of people either struggling to complete basic +0 content, or a lot of people blitzing end-game team and league content solo, at max difficulty.  There's simply too much variation in IO values.  As stated in the previous paragraph, the only way to make IOs work as a baseline is to recode the engine to account for the variability.

 

The answer to this seems pretty simple. Same way we don't ever see WoW devs messing with old dungeons and only mess with current content.

 

Basically let the 'leveling' game intact, regulated around +0 SO users, but DA content is incarnate content, incarnate trials, etc, the *end-game*, regulate around IOs.

 

They are not difficult to acquire. We have a plethora of in-game channels between Help, General and even /b for new players to complain about how things suddenly got hard at incarnate levels and be pointed at the forums either to copy builds or learn how to make money.

 

It's not a bad thing to have goals. It's not a bad thing to have an end-game. It's not a bad thing to have an end-game that is harder and welcomes buffers and debuffers instead of just amassing damage dealers.

 

We don't have a team for it though, not yet, perhaps never. I don't even know what has happened to the current team since we have heard no more news from them in months and they have been tight lipped about it.

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

The game is balanced around the enhancement values SOs provide.  SOs are why a power may have a scalar value of 1, or an AT a melee scale value of 0.65.  SOs are the baseline.  If you change the baseline, you have to change everything else.  And if you change the baseline to IOs, you also have to recode the engine to compensate for the much wider variation of enhancement values.  IOs increase enhanced percentage as level increases.  IOs enhance up to 4 attributes, and collectively enhance a greater percentage than single-attribute enhancements of any variety.

 

Any attempt to use IOs as a baseline will have poor results.  Regardless of which IO level you determine to be optimal, once scalars are modified accordingly, you're going to have a lot of people either struggling to complete basic +0 content, or a lot of people blitzing end-game team and league content solo, at max difficulty.  There's simply too much variation in IO values.  As stated in the previous paragraph, the only way to make IOs work as a baseline is to recode the engine to account for the variability.

 

So, whether you use SOs or not, or the fact that there are better or worse enhancements available, is what is irrelevant.  The balance point isn't your play style or preferences, it's the fixed reference value provided by SOs.  That's never going to change, unless you're volunteering to rewrite part of the engine and rebalance everything in a way which works with highly variable IO values... in which case, I applaud your initiative, admire your determination, wish you nothing but success and eagerly await the result.  Off you pop.

You do understand that not a single bit of this matters when discussing whether a given powerset is completely outside the norm *even at SO levels of enhancement, right?*

 

And that's my point.

 

As for the "fixed reference value provided by SOs," the game is also supposedly balanced around +0/x1 difficulty, which is absurd even if just using SOs.

 

No, this game is not balanced around SOs. It's an old and ridiculous belief that was barely true before the inventions system was added. Why do I know this? Because the game has never been properly balanced in any case from any measure of analysis. Edit: Except that it's fun as hell, of course. While I'm editing, I'd also love to read citations showing that the actual game engine itself is geared around powers with SO lvls of enhancement, whatever the hell that actually means, and where the engine had to be drastically recoded across the board when ED was slapped on to it.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Luminara]

3 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Basically let the 'leveling' game intact, regulated around +0 SO users, but DA content is incarnate content, incarnate trials, etc, the *end-game*, regulate around IOs.

 

They are not difficult to acquire.

 

Acquisition and the ease or difficulty thereof isn't the balance point.  The numbers are the balance point.  So what is your minimum number?  What is the breakpoint which determines whether a character can succeed or fail?  Are set bonuses required?  With ED still in place, does it make sense, at all, to rebalance any portion of the game around IO enhancement values without accounting for set bonuses?  If you're accounting for set bonuses, which ones and what values will you designate as the minimum, and what is your explanation to players for requiring specific minimum set bonus values in order to progress?  Have you accounted for the effect of this on the market, or the criticism regarding perceived "elitist" content and requirements?

[Luminara]

16 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

You do understand that not a single bit of this matters when discussing whether a given powerset is completely outside the norm *even at SO levels of enhancement, right?*

 

Your post, the entirety of which I quoted, was not addressing a powerset, or it's performance, it was addressing the game in general and SOs as the balance point.  So if it doesn't matter, why did you initiate the discussion?  And why are you continuing it?

 

24 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

No, this game is not balanced around SOs.

 

The math behind powers, ATs, every effect, is.  And the game is balanced around the math.  Not liking, understanding or being aware of the math doesn't alter it, or the balance, in any way.

 

Also, could you please clarify how you could be logged into a level 23 character with 19 set IOs and the rest level 25 IOs when you, per your own statement, never slot anything until level 32.  I'm certain I'm not the only one confused by the discrepancy.  Math problem?

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Your post, the entirety of which I quoted, was not addressing a powerset, or it's performance, it was addressing the game in general and SOs as the balance point.  So if it doesn't matter, why did you initiate the discussion?  And why are you continuing it?

Because we're in a thread about Titan Weapons being altered and some were stating that its performance outside of SOs should not be considered since "the game is balanced around SOs," a falsehood that you obviously seem hellbent on continuing.

 

8 minutes ago, Luminara said:

he math behind powers, ATs, every effect, is.  And the game is balanced around the math.  Not liking, understanding or being aware of the math doesn't alter it, or the balance, in any way.

Oh really? So was it balanced around SOs when we 6slotted damage into an attack before ED or was it balanced around SOs after ED essentially capped us at 3? Or was it balanced around SOs when they became completely meaningless again with the introduction of incarnate powers functioning in the same content that is supposedly balanced around SOs? One of those is a lie since it couldn't have been balanced around SOs in all the cases. And if either period was not actually balanced around SOs it brings into question the validity of the claim. One's belief regarding any given topic doesn't mean much to the rest of us when said belief doesn't appear to be grounded in reality.

 

"Balanced around SOs" may have been a GOAL but it was NEVER a reality.

 

10 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Also, could you please clarify how you could be logged into a level 23 character with 19 set IOs and the rest level 25 IOs when you, per your own statement, never slot anything until level 32.  I'm certain I'm not the only one confused by the discrepancy.  Math problem?

No, just you being smarmy. Generally speaking, it is true that I now power level to 32 and thus slot at that point. I was curious, since that's allowed, to see how this particular character worked at lower levels and thus couldn't slot lvl 35 IOs. It's still true that I don't slot SOs at any point.

[Sovera]

32 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Acquisition and the ease or difficulty thereof isn't the balance point.  The numbers are the balance point.  So what is your minimum number?  What is the breakpoint which determines whether a character can succeed or fail?  Are set bonuses required?  With ED still in place, does it make sense, at all, to rebalance any portion of the game around IO enhancement values without accounting for set bonuses?  If you're accounting for set bonuses, which ones and what values will you designate as the minimum, and what is your explanation to players for requiring specific minimum set bonus values in order to progress?  Have you accounted for the effect of this on the market, or the criticism regarding perceived "elitist" content and requirements?

You're overthinking it. We don't need to account for all the possible set bonuses. We need to account for the *goals* reached by those bonuses.

 

In very broad strokes that would need to be properly refined, simply assume everyone in incarnate content has those goals achieved. We see this in how 45% is no longer enough in incarnate content, but it can be taken further.

 

 

As for the rest you're just trying to make it sound bad so I'm not sure if I should really bother answering if your mind is already set. But okay, lets take it at face value:

 

- Anyone who has played any game is aware of how higher level content becomes harder. Saying 'hey, this is a mini raid, you need proper gear to survive it' is so commonplace I don't think I deserve any credit.

- A simple blurb from a contact saying how it's going to get harder if players head to DA or do incarnate content.

- What effect? People are doing max geared characters for shits and giggles and two weeks of casual play allows to max a build.

- As long as the +0x1 difficulty exists no player is exempt from trying all content of the game.

[Coyote]

19 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

"Balanced around SOs" may have been a GOAL but it was NEVER a reality.

 

Gotta agree with this. I'm not sure if it was INTENDED to be balanced around SOs at start, but soon as the Global Defense Nerf happened, it's safe to say that the original balance equations were no longer that accurate. Then you bring in Enhancement Diversification, and they pretty much became obsolete. Then you add in IOs, and they become super-obsolete.

Since we're already effectively playing a game based around obsolete balance equations (which did get several balance updates in some cases), I think it's safe to say that changing the viewpoint from "the game is balanced around SOs" to "the game is balanced around IOs" isn't really going to cause any problems.

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Because we're in a thread about Titan Weapons being altered and some were stating that its performance outside of SOs should not be considered since "the game is balanced around SOs," a falsehood that you obviously seem hellbent on continuing.

 

 You didn't say TW should be balanced in a certain way.  You said the game should be balanced in a certain way.  The game.  As you're not playing TW exclusively, indicated in the same post, and used a non-TW example to drive your point home, you clearly weren't referring to TW when you said the game shouldn't be balanced around SOs.  And you're continuing to argue the case of the game, not TW, but the game not being balanced around SOs, which further indicates that the post in question was not about TW.

 

I've never considered you to be someone lacking in maturity, so why not stop digging this hole in an attempt to save face and move on, rather than waste both of our time?

 

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Oh really? So was it balanced around SOs when we 6slotted damage into an attack before ED or was it balanced around SOs after ED essentially capped us at 3?

 

Both.

 

The game was balanced around SO schedule values from the outset.  Every AT modifier, every power scale value, it was all built around the concept of allowing players to slot enhancements.  Enhancements which had set, specific values which varied only slightly by level differentiation.  The players disregarded developer expectations and preconceptions regarding slotting and forced the developers to devise and implement a limitation to enforce balance.

 

Consider, they could've reduced every scale value for every effect by one third and accomplished exactly the same goal as they did with ED, saving themselves the time and effort of writing the code for ED.  They could've saved even more time and effort by modifying AT scales, as there are far fewer ATs than powers.  Instead, they wrote new code to enforce the balance.  They did it that way because those SO schedule values, 33%, 20%, et cetera, are the fulcrum point of all of the math involved in enhanceable effects.

 

Both pre-ED and post-ED balance was always centered on SO schedule values, because that was how the equations were implemented. The math, Bill, is what matters.  Not the availability of anything else, but the math beneath all of it.  And that math relies on SO schedule values.

 

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Or was it balanced around SOs when they became completely meaningless again with the introduction of incarnate powers functioning in the same content that is supposedly balanced around SOs?

 

Incarnate powers were intended to move beyond the existing boundaries.  They're god mode.  The developers explicitly said that.  They were balanced for different content than the standard 1-50 game, they have their own limitations and balance point, and the don't obviate SO balance.  You can't progress through any content using Incarnate powers exclusively, you still have to use primary/secondary/pool/*PP powers, and those powers still have to be enhanced.  The SO schedule values are still relevant and necessary for balance, with or without Incarnates.

 

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

One of those is a lie since it couldn't have been balanced around SOs in all the cases. And if either period was not actually balanced around SOs it brings into question the validity of the claim. One's belief regarding any given topic doesn't mean much to the rest of us when said belief doesn't appear to be grounded in reality.

 

The formulae and equations underpinning the entire game are where my belief is grounded.  That's the reality here.  You can look at the math yourself and see it.  And arguing with the math is akin to shouting at the sea to stop the tide from coming in.  You wanting the math to be different isn't going to change it.  You having a different perspective of what entails balance isn't going to change that, either.  It just doesn't work that way.

[Bill Z Bubba]

22 minutes ago, Luminara said:

I've never considered you to be someone lacking in maturity, so why not stop digging this hole in an attempt to save face and move on, rather than waste both of our time?

That's the second personal insult from you in this thread, but I'm the one lacking in maturity?

 

Your belief is grounded in formulae and equations that have been altered, broken, skewed, changed without documentation, change with documentation, reworked, etc, etc.

Yup, you sound like a zealot of any other flavor.

[BasherBot]

51 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

That's the second personal insult from you in this thread, but I'm the one lacking in maturity?

 

Your belief is grounded in formulae and equations that have been altered, broken, skewed, changed without documentation, change with documentation, reworked, etc, etc.

Yup, you sound like a zealot of any other flavor.

Calling him immature and a zealot has your line of defense towards an "insult" where he tried to drop the topic all together and move on to something more important... I think his point as been made

[Machariel]

I feel like if you have the perspective of "what do sets do at 50" and in most metrics of just how strong the powers are - how many targets, how much damage, at what attack speed, titan weapons is nuts, mechanically, and nobody can deny it.  I saw a chart the other day of the DPA of titan weapons vs staff fighting and titan weapons was something crazy like 50% better.  Doesn't sound that bad except that the TW numbers were without momentum. . .

 

But, I think it's honestly balanced by the fact that a lot of people don't want to deal with the momentum mechanic or the endurance usage and on a day-to-day basis I don't see a lot of titan weapon characters running around, so I'm not really sure if there's a problem.  On the other hand, the only reason I stopped playing my TW/Bio scrapper so much is that it was SO much stronger than the average character that I kind of felt bad bringing it to teams.

 

I'd probably reduce both the damage and endurance cost by a bit but still leave it as a serious outlier for damage.  After all, something has to be on top.

 

But the set really is nuts.  On top of the insane numbers it debuffs resistance (buffing its own damage and your whole team), can help buff your defense, has tons of easy knockdown mitigation (no kb to kd required), and one of its best ST attacks is also a great AoE. 

[Luminara]

7 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

That's the second personal insult from you in this thread, but I'm the one lacking in maturity?

 

There was no insult intended, Bill, and I apologize if you inferred it as such.

[Shred Monkey]

I wasn't around much the last few years of Live, so I had to look this up.  If my research is wrong, feel free to correct me. 

 

It's my understanding that Titan Weapons was behind a pay wall when it was designed.   Therefore, perhaps it was designed to over-perform intentionally to make it worth spending money on?  Even if this is true, I think they overshot the mark. 

 

This logic probably also applies to many of the other sets and IOs released in the last few years of Live.  I know personally I was very surprised by the power creep I had seen in everything that was "new" to me when I started playing homecoming.  This includes the new Powersets, Winter IO sets, and ATOs.  But now that I think about it through the lens of a micro-transaction business model, it makes a lot more sense to me.

 

TW was over-powered when it was released. And it was probably by more than intended.  But it would have been seen as "bait and switch" to nerf it back when it was something people paid for it in it's current form.  

Edited June 8, 2020 by Shred Monkey

[GM Tock]

A gentle reminder to please stay on topic and refrain from personal attacks.

[MTeague]

1 hour ago, Shred Monkey said:

It's my understanding that Titan Weapons was behind a pay wall when it was designed.   Therefore, perhaps it was designed to over-perform intentionally to make it worth spending money on? 

Exactly.

 

This right there, is why I will never buy any game with microtransactions ever again. 

It's why I set aside City of Heroes in the last year it was up (and then KICKED myself severely for missing out on it's last year....)

Microtransactions are never neutral, it always ends up driving the playstyle and game balance to hit your wallet instead of being fair play. 

I'll gladly play games with a one-and-done cost, or with a monthly subscription, or with a donation model. But never microtransactions.

[drbuzzard]

I was thinking a while back about how one would fix (rather in the sense of a cat) TW. 

 

So if we accept the premise that TW is balanced with SOs (which is debatable all by itself, but work with me), then the solution to making it a bit more balanced is to use the ability to cap the enhancement of certain powers (which is done in a number of places). You just tweak the allowable recharge on the powers in the set to be in line where one can get with SOs (or a balance point you desire). Arguably you could simply change the recharge to that SO balance point, and then make recharge changes impossible (even global). There's Victory Rush in game now which completely ignores all recharge bonuses, even global, so TW could be set up that way. It could still hit like a ton of bricks, just slowly which would seem to be the point of the set. The idea of helping the recharge on things, then capping it would be beneficial to any SOs users, but put a hard cap on the IOed out builds. 

[Chrome]

27 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

I was thinking a while back about how one would fix (rather in the sense of a cat) TW. 

 

So if we accept the premise that TW is balanced with SOs (which is debatable all by itself, but work with me), then the solution to making it a bit more balanced is to use the ability to cap the enhancement of certain powers (which is done in a number of places). You just tweak the allowable recharge on the powers in the set to be in line where one can get with SOs (or a balance point you desire). Arguably you could simply change the recharge to that SO balance point, and then make recharge changes impossible (even global). There's Victory Rush in game now which completely ignores all recharge bonuses, even global, so TW could be set up that way. It could still hit like a ton of bricks, just slowly which would seem to be the point of the set. The idea of helping the recharge on things, then capping it would be beneficial to any SOs users, but put a hard cap on the IOed out builds. 

so this i completely disagree with, one of the reasons i play this game is because of what IO set bonuses can do to my characters.  powers like victory rush and Assault for that matter are powers that i consider not worth taking as there normal effects dont offer me much and they cant slot for set bonuses.  

 

I also want to bring up Super Strength at this moment ...  people claimed it was OP because you could stack recharge and double stack rage...at the time the developers nerfed it into oblivion and now it is "balanced" with the idea that you are going to double stack Rage.  so if we continue on this path TW will become the next Super Strength.   

 

My sugesstion is this: Leave nerfs for the toy section in Walmart, buff the sets that are underperforming to TW levels and institute a +5 difficulty level via notoriety, and begin work on introducing new story content for incarnates and beyond.

[Twisted Toon]

10 minutes ago, Chrome said:

My sugesstion is this: Leave nerfs for the toy section in Walmart, buff the sets that are underperforming to TW levels and institute a +5 difficulty level via notoriety, and begin work on introducing new story content for incarnates and beyond.

Do you understand the amount of work it would take to buff every under-performing power-set rather than nerf a single power-set? Then you want to add even more work on top of that to add more levels of difficulty to the notoriety system. Then, add a colossal amount of work creating and balancing new content. With volunteers doing the work.

 

Just a thought for you to ponder there.

[Chrome]

1 minute ago, Twisted Toon said:

Do you understand the amount of work it would take to buff every under-performing power-set rather than nerf a single power-set? Then you want to add even more work on top of that to add more levels of difficulty to the notoriety system. Then, add a colossal amount of work creating and balancing new content. With volunteers doing the work.

 

Just a thought for you to ponder there.

i have thought of this and understand that for some reason this is a limiting factor for a lot of people...i am not saying this needs to be done RIGHT NOW THIS SECOND...i am saying why not start the process, begin with adding the +5 setting and then over time bump up sets to TW levels and then start adding new content, could take years but as long as this nerf crap stops id be happy.

[Twisted Toon]

16 minutes ago, Chrome said:

i have thought of this and understand that for some reason this is a limiting factor for a lot of people...i am not saying this needs to be done RIGHT NOW THIS SECOND...i am saying why not start the process, begin with adding the +5 setting and then over time bump up sets to TW levels and then start adding new content, could take years but as long as this nerf crap stops id be happy.

I would probably change that "could take years" into "would take years".

You could always start the ball rolling and volunteer yourself.

 

In most cases, when it comes to nerfs vs buffs, it all comes down to feasibility and return on Investment.

What you're talking about wanting the devs to do, is akin to moving a herd of cattle across a river, one by one, so they'll meet up with a single cow, rather than moving the single cow across the river to meet up with the rest of the herd.

The end result is the same. Just the amount of effort put into it differs.

And that's just talking about the Power-set balance.

 

[Luminara]

What are the activation times on TW powers?

[JnEricsonx]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

What are the activation times on TW powers?

Assuming Momentum isn't a option, I'll look at my char's times directly:

Defensive Sweep- 2.2 seconds

Crushing Blow-2 seconds

Titan Sweep-2.4 seconds

Rend Armor-2.3 seconds

Whirling Smash/Followthrough-1 second, but those are Momentum Powers

Arc of Destruction-2.7 seconds

[Chrome]

3 hours ago, Twisted Toon said:

I would probably change that "could take years" into "would take years".

You could always start the ball rolling and volunteer yourself.

 

In most cases, when it comes to nerfs vs buffs, it all comes down to feasibility and return on Investment.

What you're talking about wanting the devs to do, is akin to moving a herd of cattle across a river, one by one, so they'll meet up with a single cow, rather than moving the single cow across the river to meet up with the rest of the herd.

The end result is the same. Just the amount of effort put into it differs.

And that's just talking about the Power-set balance.

 

my problem is this and it is the reason i will always advocate for buffs instead of nerfs...is balance doesnt matter in PVE...are bosses dying...GMs...AVs?...they are and they are dying without people being forced to play TW or BIO or fire blast or bots/time or yadda yadda yadda.  there is always going to be an outlier that makes people feel sad enough to complain, and then if the devs nerf this then the people who have been playing it will get pissed... with my sugesstion the reason for the sadness goes away.  the actual problem is that later in development, the sets were made had more thought and ingenuity put into them, making them 1) more fun 2) more interactive 3) more suited to modern players.  you guys want to balance the game to dark melee and Ice Control instead of bringing Dark Melee and Ice Control up to TW and Plant Control.  this doesnt make sense to me.  Stop Nerfing Start Buffing.

 

Im trying to remove the reason for being sad and you guys are talking about giving people tissues