Teleport Pool now that /enterbasefrompasscode exists

[zenblack]

There have been a number of changes that the Homecoming team has done that is reversing the mechanics of the base game (whether you agree with them or not doesn't matter).  As an example we have Null the Gull unrestricted alignment changes which allows more freedom without investment (and many would argue a significant QoL improvement) but at the cost of trivializing and diminishes Safeguard and Mayhem Missions, the alignment system (now thrown out the window for all intents and purposes) and progression.

 

However, that isn't the one I want to discuss, I want to discuss /enterbasefrompasscode.

 

While extremely convenient it certainly has changed the way content/existing systems have worked. The most important of these in my mind is the Teleport Pool has been extremely marginalized. This pool was already in a state of poor trade-offs, but there were some key advantages to it (and to a small degree some of those still exist). At the same time the basecode was introduced it was not adjusted to compensate for what was taken from it in this change. On top of that the Sorcery pool was already dipping into some of Teleports place and the Experimentation Pool was introduced with another more attractive version as well.

 

The reality is there is no putting the genie back in the bottle. Basecodes and Pool crossover are here to stay, but at the same time there needs to be some effort put into adjusting how this affects the entire dynamic of Pool powers. I'm sure there are any number of decent ideas floating around the creative minds here that could improve Teleport, we simply need it to be prioritized understanding the new environment that Homecoming has created.

[Greycat]

Null existed on live. That's not a SCORE or Homecoming change. There are also advantages, such as XP, merits and temp powers, plus badges for those interested, to not using him. The alignment system is not "thrown out the window" because of Null.

 

And until the team says otherwise, assume enterbasefrompasscode will go away, as they've said before.

 

I'm not sure how you think this affects anything but long range teleport, though. /enterbasefrompasscode doesn't act as a travel power to anything but a base. It doesn't recall a friend or a foe to me. It doesn't teleport anyone nearby me anywhere. And it's a longer process to *get* anywhere (two zone loads, which on some systems can be quite a time investment) versus teh single one for long range teleport.

 

You're far overstating the impact of the command on the teleport pool.

[Grouchybeast]

34 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Null existed on live. That's not a SCORE or Homecoming change. There are also advantages, such as XP, merits and temp powers, plus badges for those interested, to not using him. The alignment system is not "thrown out the window" because of Null.

Null the Gull didn't offer alignment changes on Live.

[Greycat]

3 hours ago, Grouchybeast said:

Null the Gull didn't offer alignment changes on Live.

Mm. Had to double check. That's true. Doesn't really diminish the rest of the argument though.

[Redlynne]

5 hours ago, Greycat said:

The alignment system is not "thrown out the window" because of Null.

I was able to obtain the Frenzy alignment power on 2 of my Villains thanks to the Tips To Morality missions on 2 of my Villains who have stayed Villains.  At some point I'll do the month long trip "around the horn" of spending a week+ being each alignment just to get the badge for each of them ... all of which can't be done via the Null the Gull shortcut.

[tidge]

Is this where Zapp comes in?

 

The Teleport pool does need a rework, partially because Long Range Teleport is supplanted by all sorts of travel options even without considering the SGpasscode. It's timer is too long and it doesn't go to all the zones. It requires two power picks from a pool where those other picks are not that useful either. (Is this where Bentley Berkeley comes in?) It's an inferior set, especially for a travel pool.

[MTeague]

8 hours ago, Greycat said:

And until the team says otherwise, assume enterbasefrompasscode will go away, as they've said before.

I tried to. For a long time. But they've said that for a long, LONG, time while nothing has happened.

At a certain point, what you DO, or DON'T DO, speaks so loudly, that I can no longer hear words that claim otherwise.

 

Now, It's their game of course, and they have full rights to do anything they want with it, and they are by no means bound to take action sooner because of anything I say. 

But frankly, on the removal of enterbasefrompasscode?  I'll believe it when I see it.  And not before.

[ImpousVileTerror]

The Tier 5 could be a passive Auto Power which turns Teleport in to Teleport (Superior).

Seriously . . . after trying the first version of Jaunt on the Beta Shards a few months back, regular Teleport just feels extra awful.  I would totally invest in the Teleport Pool if it meant an instant Teleport Power, like how Jaunt used to work.

 

Note:  This is from the perspective of someone whose favourite Travel Power -is- Teleport!

 

Edited June 13, 2020 by ImpousVileTerror
Personal Context.

[zenblack]

9 hours ago, Greycat said:

You're far overstating the impact of the command on the teleport pool.

And you are far understating it. While I said there are uses to the pool (which you seem to have tripped over in order to try to make your argument) there is no way that they have not been reduced in attractiveness/effectiveness with the introduction of baseport.

 

As MTeague has pointed out, they have not removed it and there is no evidence that they will or that there is any priority to do so. Personally, I feel the backlash from simply taking it away (since it was introduced and left in so long) with it having such a huge impact on game play would be significant. There would also be enough community outrage that it would factor into HC's decision. It also does not fit the direction that Homecoming has gone to make the game more accessible for casual players with their other implemented decisions.

 

That is why I feel it is more important to deal with the reality of what is instead of the reality of what we want and look for possible solutions to the issue. The Teleport Pool is unattractive and even it's niche usefulness is marginalized and it deserves some attention.

Edited June 13, 2020 by zenblack
Poor formating

[Greycat]

12 minutes ago, zenblack said:

And you are far understating it. While I said there are uses to the pool (which you seem to have tripped over in order to try to make your argument) there is no way that they have not been reduced in attractiveness/effectiveness with the introduction of baseport.

 

As MTeague has pointed out they have not removed it and there is no evidence that they will or that there is any priority to do so. Personally I feel the backlash from simply taking it away since it was introduced and left in so long with it having such a huge impact on game play would be significant and there would be enough community outrage that it would factor into their decision. It also does not fit the direction that Homecoming has done to make the game more accessible for casual players. That is why I feel it is more important to deal with the reality of what is instead of the reality of what we want and look for possible solutions to the issue, which is that the Teleport Pool is unattractive and even it's niche usefulness is marginalized.

Again -

 

It does not summon my friends to me.

It does not pull enemies to me.

It does not move my team around.

It does not move me around the zone.

 

You're arguing about the usefulness of *a power* in the pool, Long Range Teleport. And yet you keep saying "the Teleport pool." There are five powers in said pool. /enterbasefrompasscode does not replace or minimize four of them in any way, shape or form. It replaces or obsoletes them about as well as a banana does.

 

If you *really do* mean "the teleport pool," and you really want to say the *entire pool* is reduced by EBFP (I'm not typing that out every time,) go ahead and explain how it's replaced or reduced - say - moving you from the hospital back to the ship if you die during a mothership raid.

 

As far as Sorcery or Experimentation? Yay, you have travel options. Sorcery doesn't help me pull an enemy to me and guarantee he's separated from his friends, even if they aggro. (TP Foe.)

 

Oh. By the way. You're also going to have to explain the impact on Warshades, since much of the pool is available to them either as an inherent (Teleport, Recall Friend) or as powers in their secondary (TP Foe - used *very* heavily to deal with things like Quantums - and LRT.)

 

As far as "community outrage?" If they feel it's better to remove it, whenever they do, they will. How do I know? Do you have that "Double INF option back? Seems quite a bit of the communty felt outrage over that, yet... not back. Hell, some people are still upset over ED. That certainly hasn't been reverted. If they feel it needs to be removed, they'll remove it, moderate a few posts that come up on the forum if needed afterward, and go on with everything else they need to do.

 

TLDR: If you mean to say EBFP replaces *One power* (Long range transport / Shadow Slip) then, fine, add the other zones to that power. Otherwise, you'll need to explain how to use it instead of the other four powers in the pool, or how it impacts them in any way.

[zenblack]

46 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Again -

 

It does not summon my friends to me.

It does not pull enemies to me.

It does not move my team around.

It does not move me around the zone.

1.) The need summon your friends to you anymore outside of TFs is reduced, they already got where they need to go either before you or so quickly that you having that power doesn't matter. This has happened constantly in my personal experience and the accompanying deflating of the person who picked Teleport Pool follows.

 

2.) Look the part where I said it has some niche uses. Maybe you had better look up what niche means.

 

3.) Yes it does. You zone to base, then zone back to the same zone at the baseport point. A little more limited than the power, but it's free however the power may be more attractive if you have slow load times (many do not). If you are going to argue that this doesn't matter when deciding to pick a Power Pool then you have been drinking too much Enriche.

 

4.) Yes it does. See #3.

 

Re: Warshades, Yes this does impact them, but I would argue even with all those powers that are inherent and are a part of the balance of their kit, they are still better than Peacebringers, but this isn't about AT balance. It simply shows how the interlocking system of baseport marginalizes teleportation powers.

 

Everything else you said is extremely subjective or just flat out wishful thinking.

Edited June 13, 2020 by zenblack

[Greycat]

1 minute ago, zenblack said:

1.) The need summon your friends to you anymore outside of TFs is reduced, they already got where they need to go either before you or so quickly that you having that power doesn't matter. This has happened constantly in my personal experience and the accompanying deflating of the person who picked Teleport Pool follows.

 

2.) Look the part where I said it has some niche uses. Maybe you had better look up what niche means.

 

3.) Yes it does. You zone to base, then zone back to the same zone at the baseport point. A little more limited than the power, but it's free and may be more attractive if you have slow load times (many do not). If you are going to argue that this doesn't matter when deciding to pick a Power Pool then you have been drinking too much Enriche.

 

4.) Yes it does. See #3.

 

Re: Warshades, Yes this does impact them, but I would argue even with all those powers that are inherent and are a part of the balance of their kit, they are still better than Peacebringers, but this isn't about AT balance. It simply shows how the interlocking system of baseport marginalizes teleportation powers.

 

Everything else you said is extremely subjective or just flat out wishful thinking.

1. Again, doesn't help moving them around in zone or in a mission.

2. Your opinion that it's niche. Maybe you'd better look up opinion.

3. Again, apparently you don't know how the power works.

4. Again, apparently you don't know how the power works.

 

So, let's give you some detail.

 

1. Recall Friend:  Ports one individual to you from somewhere else in the zone or mission.

Useful in a zone or a mission.

Brings the target to exactly where you are. No travel needed, no matter how fast their travel power is. (Go ahead, I'll take the power and stand on one side of Atlas Park. You take the fastest, completely slotted travel power and get to the other side. Time it. Then I'll Recall you to the other side. Bet I'm faster.) Also useful when the target is dead for things like rezzing, and faster than going ito the hospital unless you're *right* there to rez. Useful inside of missions as well.

 

Compare to: EBFP.

Cannot be used on a teammate.

Cannot reposition a teammate, for example to move from a portal dropoff point to the other side of the zone, or to bring a defeated teammate to you to rez.

 

Conclusion: You are incorrect about EBFP reducing or replacing Recall Friend.

 

2. Teleport Foe:

Select one enemy. Move that specific enemy (typically minion or lt) from where they are to you, without regard to intervening geometry. Can fail or be resisted. Useful in a zone or in a mission.

 

Compare to EBFP:

Cannot be used in a mission.

Cannot be used on NPCs or enemy players.

 

Conclusion: You are incorrect about EBFP reducing or replacing Teleport Foe. Screaming "It's niche!" is an opinion and utterly irrelevant to your proposition that it's reduced or replaced by EBFP.

 

3: Teleport:

Moves you around in the zone or in a mission. Can be used to reposition inside of a mission. Can be used to reposition vertically.

 

Compare to EBFP:

Moves you to a base. Cannot be used to move around in a mission. EBFP puts you at the portal dropoff spot. Cannot move you to any other point (technically, can only move you to a base.) If I use EBFP to go to a zone, but my mission is on the other side of the zone, using EBFP again will only put me at the same point I was just at. Cannot vertically reposition.

 

Conclusion: You are incorrect about EBFP reducing or replacing Teleport.

 

4. Team Teleport.

Moves you and allies close to you around.  Can be used in zone or mission. Can be used to move a Mastermind and pets around in a group.  (Only power not replciated by warshades.)

 

Compare to EBFP:

Cannot be used in a mission to reposition. While pets can be moved to the base with you (there's the occasional "pets die on zoning" that still happens,) they also would only apear at the portal dropoff area. Teammates need to use the command on their own with the same limitations.

 

Conclusion: You are incorrect about EBFP reducing or replacing team teleport.

Note: Of them all, this is the most "niche." But "Nicheness" is irrelevant to if it's lessened or replaced. They do not serve the same function and do not have the same utility.

 

5. Long Range Teleport

Purpose: Moves you from one zone to the another. Limited destinations.

Compare to EBFP:

If I want to be technically nitpicky here, EBFP ONLY moves you to a base, which you must have a passcode for, and you then rely on teleporters to get to another zone. If you pick a base that somehow only has a teleporter to Pocket D, then the usefulness of LRT is greater here... unless you need to get to Pocket D. But I'm not going to nitpick there.

 

Conclusion: LRT's advantage here is that it is faster (only one zone load) for the locations it goes to. Where it goes, though, is more limited than the implied EBFP use of going to a transport hub base with all zones, including echo zones. LRT also requires a pool selection and two other powers from that pool, where EBFP does not. (That can be disregarded for shadow slip, where the cost is just one power that doesn't need slotting.)

 

So, again. It competes, and competes successfully, with one power, not the pool.

Solution: Increase the destinations LRT goes for. Which I have no argument with. Still has an opportunity cost of "Power pool selection and two power picks inside it." But if I'm wanting to use Teleport (I do) and/or the other powers inside, I'm already picking that pool so the "cost" to me is reduced.

 

 

As far as your comment re: recall friend "they already got where they need to go either before you or so quickly that you having that power doesn't matter." - really. How do they do that when they're dead? Here's a common, probably literally every day use: MSR. Person dies. Person goes to hospital. I have never seen someone travel the distance from the hospital back to the mothership in less than 10 seconds  And if you say you have... to be blunt, you're wrong. Or you've seen someone use Recall Friend on them and assumed it was their travel power.

 

If you believe you can get across a zone that fast, I'll be happy to "race" you. Run (or jump or fly or even teleport) from one side of Atlas to the other. Time it. Then get Recalled to the starting point. Bet the recall is much faster. You're more than welcome to use EBFP too. 😉 

 

[zenblack]

1 hour ago, ImpousVileTerror said:

The Tier 5 could be a passive Auto Power which turns Teleport in to Teleport (Superior).

Seriously . . . after trying the first version of Jaunt on the Beta Shards a few months back, regular Teleport just feels extra awful.  I would totally invest in the Teleport Pool if it meant an instant Teleport Power, like how Jaunt used to work.

 

Note:  This is from the perspective of someone whose favourite Travel Power -is- Teleport!

 

I think this is a step in the right direction but I wouldn't want a full power devoted to it. Perhaps it could be arranged so if you have 3 powers in the Teleport pool you automatically receive the Superior version.

 

[Glacier Peak]

The Teleport pool gives me access and assistance reaching places not often traveled. I find its utility to be unmatched in certain situations. I also use the tp base padscode macro as well, and I believe it's instant animation and recharge make far more sense in the game than 10 second long animations and 15 minute recharges.

[zenblack]

13 minutes ago, Greycat said:

As far as your comment re: recall friend "they already got where they need to go either before you or so quickly that you having that power doesn't matter." - really. How do they do that when they're dead? Here's a common, probably literally every day use: MSR. Person dies. Person goes to hospital. I have never seen someone travel the distance from the hospital back to the mothership in less than 10 seconds  And if you say you have... to be blunt, you're wrong. Or you've seen someone use Recall Friend on them and assumed it was their travel power.

 

Yes I have, but due to your blinders I don't think you'll figure out how that was possible.

 

The rest of your extremely TL;DR post is just posturing or wrong. I'm not trying to argue with a TRUE BELIEVER like you I am here to suggest to the people who can do something about it and may have a more open mind than you and crowdsource some balanced, fair or inventive upgrades to Teleport Pool.

Edited June 13, 2020 by zenblack

[Greycat]

14 minutes ago, zenblack said:

Yes I have, but due to your blinders I don't think you'll figure out how that was possible.

 

The rest of your extremely TL;DR post is just posturing. I'm not trying to convince a TRUE BELIEVER like you I am here to suggest to the people who can do something about it and may have a more open mind than you.

So you can't actually do anything to defend your position. Oh, and a "I know how but I'm not telling (so nobody can confirm or deny)" on top of it.

Good to know.

 

By the way, I don't see it as a religion. There's no "believing" required. I do, however, know how the pool and the powers inside of it work and can make actual comparisons. Which I did. Which you *could* have chosen to reply to with your own counterarguments. But since you did not and apparently will not... *shrug* I'll take it as a "can not," since I at least gave facts, not opinions, even when it did show advantage over one of the powers (LRT.) You have yet to do so. Unproven anecdote is not fact, especially not when given with an "but I'm not telling how!"

 

I laid all my cards on the table in regard to each power in the pool. You had a chance to engage in dialog and actually change my mind. You chose not to.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Greycat

[zenblack]

It's more telling that you consider this combative and I need to defend my position. That should be enough to show you why it's not worth my time wasting discussing this topic with you. Unlike you I'm not interested in turning things personal and feeding a flame war.

Edited June 13, 2020 by zenblack

[Menelruin]

@Greycat there's also Assemble the Team, Team Transport, Incandescent Destiny, and Mission Transport to factor in.  Also, how often do you use Teleport Foe, outside of maybe PVP?  Why yank ONE enemy over, when your team can just steamroll an enemy group?

[Monos King]

11 minutes ago, Menelruin said:

@Greycat there's also Assemble the Team, Team Transport, Incandescent Destiny, and Mission Transport to factor in.  Also, how often do you use Teleport Foe, outside of maybe PVP?  Why yank ONE enemy over, when your team can just steamroll an enemy group?

I really miss strategy in this game.

[Menelruin]

8 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I really miss strategy in this game.

Which is a value complaint, but nonetheless, without a MASSIVE overhaul to game difficulty,  Teleport Foe is largely pointless right now, isn't it? 

[Fortuneteller]

I'd say it's about time the dev team removed the base teleport slash command. Personally i hate it.

It's un-CoH.

Now i've had a couple folks recently telling me i'm dumb for not using the base tp 8888 command in TF's, because i'm not as speedy as they are... Personally i don't give a shit, but that's an example that folks are beginning to ~expect everyone~ to be using the slash command.

[Monos King]

35 minutes ago, Menelruin said:

Which is a value complaint, but nonetheless, without a MASSIVE overhaul to game difficulty,  Teleport Foe is largely pointless right now, isn't it? 

For conventional purposes, yeah.  Which are most of the purposes, so double yeah. Everything is futile next to god of damage mega-men. Granted that's primarily regarding level 50 with IOs and Incarnates, but as there isn't much station in the not level 50 region now (because reaching 50 is currently hysterically easy), it's kind of a whole game issue. Anyway, that's not the point. Here's the only uses that come to my mind for teleport foe atm:

1) Snipe the attention of a boss-AV away from a mob (overshadowed by actual snipes, scarcely used because a mob with an AV is no longer frequently a threat)

2) PvP instances (limited to PvP instances)

3)  Bringing an enemy to an objective (not certain this is even a mechanic anywhere)

4) Creating a faux-pet by confusing an enemy and teleporting it around with you everywhere

5) Teleporting an enemy into trip mines, damage patches, or another location debuff (doesn't work on bosses or above as they are immune) 

 

That's all I have on that one. They're all pretty situational, and definitely irrelevant now.

[ImpousVileTerror]

One other edge case for Teleport Foe:   Roleplay.

One other-other edge case:  Teleporting a Foe in to a Store or City Hall (potentially griefing.  Don't grief).

[MTeague]

4 hours ago, Menelruin said:

Which is a value complaint, but nonetheless, without a MASSIVE overhaul to game difficulty,  Teleport Foe is largely pointless right now, isn't it? 

Since the reboot, I have only ever found Teleport Foe useful when soloing on a lower-damage character.

[MTeague]

4 hours ago, Fortuneteller said:

I'd say it's about time the dev team removed the base teleport slash command. Personally i hate it.

It's un-CoH.

Now i've had a couple folks recently telling me i'm dumb for not using the base tp 8888 command in TF's, because i'm not as speedy as they are... Personally i don't give a shit, but that's an example that folks are beginning to ~expect everyone~ to be using the slash command.

QFT.   I do not use the slash command, will not use the slash command.  I don't like it being there, but as long as it is, it's unrealistic of me to expect others to refuse to use it.  But I personally still refuse. And if teams want to kick me for "taking too long", okay, you do that.  If speed matters THAT much to a team, I'm probably not having fun on that team anyway.