Rad or Invuln

[Werner]

2 hours ago, Sovera said:

I can jump into each crystal pack and solo it since they do debuff but not fast enough.

The Bright Novas do the defense debuffs. They're part of my ITF targetting keybind. But of course that's not needed if you're killing the whole spawn quickly like you are. I'm slow. 🙂

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 hours ago, Sovera said:

Even Bill's complaint about the kheldian's is something I do not notice (undoubtedly because I'm all IOed at 45% defense (with barrier but I rarely bother using it on CD. It's more of a pnic button) and 60% slow resist) and T4-ed out where his is a fresh 50).

 

He's freshly T4ed and 50. Was sitting on 200 emps to start him.

 

Just go start a solo max diff ITF. Hop into a spawn and see what happens. You don't gotta finish it. One plus you DO have, of course, is the glorious mitigation from shockwave and focus. My FA/EM tank only has a chance for KD in whirling hands. I'll look into getting more slow resists. Looks like I'm only sitting on 15%.

[Hjarki]

2 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Simple notification since I forgot to pull it off before the screen grabs.
-14% S/L Resist
-6% E/N/F/C/T Resist.
-8% ToHit

I posted the (correct) unenhanced values. What you're comparing them against are enhanced values. I didn't post anything about ToHit bonuses whatsoever.

2 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

And you've been told what you got wrong.

Except I haven't. Bopper even had to step in and include charts before the 'experts' realized they were wrong about how defense works.

[Werner]

1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

Bopper even had to step in and include charts before the 'experts' realized they were wrong about how defense works.

Let me first agree that Bopper's charts demonstrate that for his specific case of a lot of attackers with very small debuffs, 59% defense 0% DDR averages much better than 45% defense 50% DDR during the time frame of a fight.

 

That out of the way, two points...

 

1)  Do you want better average performance, or do you want to stay alive when the debuffs are big and fast and furious and the RNG hates you? On average, the 45% defense with 50% DDR doesn't drop below 30%. That's mathematically 3x more damage than being over 45%, sure, but it's still not very threatening. What's more threatening is when that defense goes negative. and we're taking over 10x as much damage. Now we're talking! So how often does that happen, and how fast? We're not really seeing a probability distribution, but from the limited information from the black "lines", it appears that not once in over 1000 simulations did the 45% defense 50% DDR go negative in the first 40 seconds or so. No problem. On the other hand, the 59% defense 0% DDR occasionally went negative in the first 10 seconds or so, and quite often went negative by 20 seconds, and sometimes even was down at -20% or even lower by then. On average, it was great, but I don't like being killed by the RNG. All other things being equal (they aren't of course), I would therefore personally pick 45% defense 50% DDR over 59% defense 0% DDR on a resistance build, but that choice is not objectively right or wrong. It's a personal choice based on how I want the character to play and what sort of enemies I want to throw myself against.

 

2)  But that's not the actual choice! Why in the world, in a discussion of Radiation vs. Invulnerability, are we even discussing 59% defense with 0% DDR vs. 45% defense with 50% DDR? It's admittedly an interesting philosophical and mathematical discussion, but Invulnerability is the one with significantly higher defense, not Radiation. It seems to me we should be discussing 45% Defense with 0% DDR vs. 59% defense with 50% DDR, but that would be a very, very short discussion. Defense is no contest in favor of Invulnerability.  But that's not where Radiation shines. Radiation shines elsewhere.

[Xanatos]

7 hours ago, marcussmythe said:

I mean... I think in a world with infinite dev resources, invuln could use a pass for clean up - do we really NEED REle and RNrg as two seperate powers?  Merge and slap in a sustain.  F/C/E/N reists could probably use a bump back to their old old days values.  Make the T9 not a suicide button (give it the light form 50/50 crash).  But none of that really deserves developer time when so many sets need the attention so much more.  
 

But if they want to lobby the PTB until my main gets a buff, Im not going to, yannow, tackle them.

 

Invuln does not need touching, at all, save for possibly:

• Reducing the Unstoppable crash severity. (But otherwise leaving unstoppable as is.)
• Reducing the end cost of some of the toggles. (To help with the 1-50, pre-IO, grind)

 

Resist Energies and Resist Elements should be left alone. Them being two separate powers is good for builds. Merging them into one power would (counter-intuitive as it may seem) actually be a nerf.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Xanatos

[marcussmythe]

One presumes that if merged, one would be replaced by a regen/recovery power.  The only downside I can see of merging them is the loss of a place to put Resist sets - but given that the set would still have 5 places for resist IO bonuses, I see it as a net win, so Im not sure how much is lost (compared to a gain of rec/regen).  Id have to look at the Sentinel version again, in fairness.

 

As I said, matching the crash and recharge to Light Form, an example of a useable T9, seems the logical choice.  It would open ‘perma unstop’ back up after all these years, but Ive not noticed perma lightform turning PBs into all-destroying monsters - and would likely still keep it as an emergency button rather than building my survival around a click that is vulnerable to slows.

[Sovera]

9 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

He's freshly T4ed and 50. Was sitting on 200 emps to start him.

 

Just go start a solo max diff ITF. Hop into a spawn and see what happens. You don't gotta finish it. One plus you DO have, of course, is the glorious mitigation from shockwave and focus. My FA/EM tank only has a chance for KD in whirling hands. I'll look into getting more slow resists. Looks like I'm only sitting on 15%.

What a slog, good god 😄 It was my first time so things to remember for a next time: kill the damn healing nictus first 😛 That's about it. I'm sure the last AV must have taken me over 20 minutes since I used my lore pets three times and I was just whittling it down.

 

- Used my lores (Banished Pantheon) on AVs and on that ambush on the top of the hill. First time I tried I died there with only a handful left on a sliver but no more insps and not having used the lore pets after inadvertently spawning it, so instead of saying 'let me try again and be more careful not to trigger the ambush' I was OH YEAH?! COME AT ME! and spawned it on purpose the second time to then lay mayhem on the sea of space squid. On the last AV the lore pets were mostly useless since they did not hit my target and wasted their time hitting the nictus.

- Did not use envenomed blades.

- Used inspirations here and there, mostly greens, did not bother replenishing via vendor/AH.

- AVs did not hurt. Tanked both AVs after the computer and they did not even dip my HP. Tanked the last AV with all his nictus and not even the auto hit made me use my heal.

- Cheated on the crystals by leaving them all on a sliver and then breaking them all at the same time. I just did not want to deal with the minotaurs and their T9. The ambush themselves would not have been a problem since I was in the habit of picking two packs of romans at a time to speed things up so I doubt the ambush would have done more.

- As I remembered the crystal packs were not a problem.

- No Shockwave. I know, I know, it's a sacrilege not to have Shockwave considering how useful it is, buuuut.... a +4x8 master of shows it not -necessary-. I needed the slots and with Burn I noticed I wasn't using Shockwave much. If I'm not using something I discard it from the build. Took Assault instead.

 

Compared to your feats of doing it on a Scrapper and no inspirations (I had to guzzle a few) this isn't much, but, now I can say I too have soloed an ITF on +4x8. Not sure if 2 hours is slow or what, but I could do better next time.

 

Spoiler

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Sovera

[Bill Z Bubba]

12 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Compared to your feats of doing it on a Scrapper and no inspirations (I had to guzzle a few) this isn't much, but, now I can say I too have soloed an ITF on +4x8. Not sure if 2 hours is slow or what, but I could do better next time.

That was @Werner I ain't that good. No shockwave? No massive collapses due to stacked slows? Ok, I really need more slow resists. No shockwave? Damn... nice job! I shall again peruse your build to see where mine is wrong. I suspect it will all come down to you having more defense and slow resists.

 

No shockwave? WTH is wrong with you?!!?!? 🙂

 

Edit: Reread your comments about why you're not running it or taunt. Makes sense, really. Very nice and thanks.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Xanatos]

 

1 hour ago, marcussmythe said:

One presumes that if merged, one would be replaced by a regen/recovery power. 

 

Why does one presume this?

 

The sentinel Invuln set has Resist Elements and Resist Energies merged and the power (Environmental Resistance) filling the empty slot provides e/n/f/c/t res and end drain/slow resist.

 

If Environmental Resistance was added to the tanker/brute sets, Invuln would be overpowered.

 

If a regen/recovery power (lol) was added instead, it would be a nerf.

 

Solution: leave Resist Elements and Resist Energies alone. Stop coming up with solutions to things that are not problems.

 

1 hour ago, marcussmythe said:

The only downside I can see of merging them is the loss of a place to put Resist sets - but given that the set would still have 5 places for resist IO bonuses, I see it as a net win.

 

Invuln is a res set.

 

Decreasing the amount of places it can get res bonuses from 6 to 5 is objectively a net loss for it. (6 is a higher number than 5.)

 

Especially in exchange for...Regen/Recovery bonuses. (lol)

 

1 hour ago, marcussmythe said:

As I said, matching the crash and recharge to Light Form, an example of a useable T9, seems the logical choice.  It would open ‘perma unstop’ back up after all these years, but Ive not noticed perma lightform turning PBs into all-destroying monsters - and would likely still keep it as an emergency button rather than building my survival around a click that is vulnerable to slows.

 

The Unstoppable recharge is fine as it is. Decreasing it would make it overpowered.

 

Invuln already has an emergency button. It's called Dull Pain.

 

Unstoppable is a PVP power / PVE set mule. Has been for over a decade. It should not be messed with.

 

However, given just how many people don't understand how invulnerability works, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the homecoming powers guys ends up messing with it. If that were to happen, I'd suggest reducing the -hp and -end of the crash. Currently it hits for -90% health and -100% endurance. I'd suggest changing that to -50% health and -75% endurance. Other than this minor tweak, the power should be kept the same.

 

Sorry if any of the above seems short. I've been playing Invuln tanks since 2003. These topics are a bit old hat by now. The set doesn't need changing.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Xanatos

[Omega-202]

1 hour ago, marcussmythe said:

It would open ‘perma unstop’ back up after all these years, but Ive not noticed perma lightform turning PBs into all-destroying monsters - and would likely still keep it as an emergency button rather than building my survival around a click that is vulnerable to slows.

PBs not being monsters has nothing to do with their toughness.  The problem is that they hit like a wet noodle.  I shudder to think what a "perma-Lightform" Scrapper or Stalker could do now that they can drop Temp Invuln and the passives.  That's 2 extra net power picks and probably more resists than they'd get otherwise.  Plus more defense than a PB could muster.  

 

Unstoppable needs a tweeking, but making it Lightform would bust Invuln to no end.  I suggest just softening the crash.  Setting HP and end to 50%/50% or 50%/25% would be fine, but the recharge should stay as is to prevent perma.  

[Werner]

9 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

14 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Compared to your feats of doing it on a Scrapper and no inspirations (I had to guzzle a few) this isn't much, but, now I can say I too have soloed an ITF on +4x8. Not sure if 2 hours is slow or what, but I could do better next time.

That was @Werner I ain't that good.

 

LOL. I didn’t do it on a Scrapper, though. On a Katana/Dark Brute and a Dark/MA Tanker. Also with enemies buffed and no Lore. Ouchy! And it was over a four hour slog on the Tanker.

[Sovera]

Just now, Werner said:

LOL. I didn’t do it on a Scrapper, though. On a Katana/Dark Brute and a Dark/MA Tanker. Also with enemies buffed and no Lore. Ouchy! And it was over a four hour slog on the Tanker.

Enemies buffed and no Lore. You're a masochist. Lay it on us, does the sight of leather and chains excite you? We won't judge if you say yes.

[Werner]

1 minute ago, Sovera said:

Enemies buffed and no Lore. You're a masochist. Lay it on us, does the sight of leather and chains excite you? We won't judge if you say yes.

mmmmmmaybe... LOL

[marcussmythe]

41 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

 

Sorry if any of the above seems short. I've been playing Invuln tanks since 2003. These topics are a bit old hat by now. The set doesn't need changing.

I will not try to address 'Having your Power-set Capstone Tier 9 as a set mule' and 'Using 5 powers to get a worse resist spread than Radiation Armor gets with 3 is good, and spending less powers to still be worse at it would be a nerf' and 'gaining endurance and health recovery would be a nerf' as arguments. 

 

The fact that we can even have a meaningful discussion as to whether Invuln is more survivable than Radiation, while radiation is offers so many things beyond the mere survival that invulnerability does, suggests that something is out of whack somewhere.  If Radiation is throwing recharge, end recovery, and a pair of pocket nukes around while Invuln is being... hard to kill... one anticipates that Invulnerability should be unambiguously harder to kill in every situation.  This thread I offer as evidence of at least some ambiguity.

 

We are obviously not going to agree on this, and I find your point of view not merely differing from my own in a 'in matters of taste there can be no dispute' sort of way, but so incomprehensible as to make effective communication impossible. 

 

As such, I will not be further replying to you and you may treat that as me conceding the point if it pleases you to do so.

 

I will note in passing, however, that you are maybe not the only person here who has played invuln since release, and your assumption that people who disagree with you are, if I may quote you "people don't understand how invulnerability works" is at the least dismissive, and at the worst insulting.

 

Good day, Sir.

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by marcussmythe

[Hyperstrike]

43 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

Invuln is a res set.

No.  Invuln is a Hybrid set.  Like Shield, WP, etc.
It has powers that provide BOTH Res and Def.

Resist sets are things like Fire, Elec, etc.

 

[Hyperstrike]

50 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

Sorry if any of the above seems short. I've been playing Invuln tanks since 2003. These topics are a bit old hat by now. The set doesn't need changing.

GIMME MY TAUNT ENHANCEMENT BACK FOR Invince!

 

[Xanatos]

1 hour ago, marcussmythe said:

I will not try to address 'Having your Power-set Capstone Tier 9 as a set mule' and 'Using 5 powers to get a worse resist spread than Radiation Armor gets with 3 is good, and spending less powers to still be worse at it would be a nerf' and 'gaining endurance and health recovery would be a nerf' as arguments. 

 

Unstoppable is what makes Invuln viable in PVP. That's T9 enough.

 

Especially when the rest of the set allows me to tank LITERALLY EVERYTHING IN PVE WITHOUT DYING.

 

Ahem.

 

Comparing Invuln's 5(6) res powers to Rad's 3(4) res powers is to take them out of the context of how the two sets are designed as a whole. So yes, I'm glad you decided against making that fallacious argument.

 

1 hour ago, marcussmythe said:

The fact that we can even have a meaningful discussion as to whether Invuln is more survivable than Radiation, while radiation is offers so many things beyond the mere survival that invulnerability does, suggests that something is out of whack somewhere.  If Radiation is throwing recharge, end recovery, and a pair of pocket nukes around while Invuln is being... hard to kill... one anticipates that Invulnerability should be unambiguously harder to kill in every situation.  This thread I offer as evidence of at least some ambiguity.

 

Neither of us were talking about the viability of invuln versus rad. You were suggesting changes to invuln. I was saying why your ideas were bad.

 

If your suggested changes were intended to bridge the gap between Rad and Invuln, they failed. Because your suggested changes were an accidental nerf. And would thus widen the gap.

 

1 hour ago, marcussmythe said:

I will note in passing, however, that you are maybe not the only person here who has played invuln since release, and your assumption that people who disagree with you are, if I may quote you "people don't understand how invulnerability works" is at the least dismissive, and at the worst insulting.

 

Good day, Sir.

 

 

First of all, I have played it since beta. How dare you lump me in with those "since release" n00bs.

 

Secondly, my comment wasn't aimed at you specifically. (Sincere apologies if it did upset you, that's on me for not being clear). It was aimed more the playerbase as a whole. I constantly see invuln builds being shared with the psi hole unplugged, threads in the suggestion forum full of bad ideas on how to "fix invulnerability", and in this thread alone we've had countless mistruths being shared about invuln. (Not having a taunt aura, having a bad heal, being bad versus anything not s/l, etc). If I'm seeing this all the time on the forums, I think it's fair to say that many people don't know how invulnerability works, right?

 

The forums make a lot of noise. Sometimes the people who run the servers pay attention to that noise. Best to shut down bad ideas before they gain momentum, aye?

 

Anyway, go in peace.Que sera sera and all that.

  

1 hour ago, Hyperstrike said:

No.  Invuln is a Hybrid set.  Like Shield, WP, etc.
It has powers that provide BOTH Res and Def.

Resist sets are things like Fire, Elec, etc.

 

 

Ah, my fault for not being clearer - I meant in terms of power #s.

 

6 out of 9 of invuln's powers are res powers.

 

Thus, the slotting strategy behind it is based on that. (And given that Invuln is the baseline armour set, many of the original resist IO set bonus #s were balanced around this.)

 

Removing one of invuln's res powers, and replacing it with a regen/recovery power (lol) and...yeah...you'd start throwing everything out of whack. (Replacing it with another res power, ala Sentinel Invuln, would be fine in terms of IO bonus balance, but would be completely OP in other areas. That's why I've always advocated leaving Invuln alone. It's fine as it is.)

 

I know you know all this already. Just clarifying what I meant, above.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Xanatos

[Werner]

3 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

I constantly see invuln builds being shared with the psi hole unplugged,

Guilty! It was an Invuln/SS build for a friend, and he almost flat out told me “do not plug the psi hole.” So I didn’t. At least it gives me reason to occasionally pretend I have to save him from the scary psychics. Though he doesn’t play it much these days. He complains that the rest of us don’t need a Tanker anyway. Except Pete. But we’re pretty sure Pete faceplants on purpose.

[Haijinx]

15 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

 

 

First of all, I have played it since beta. How dare you lump me in with those "since release" n00bs.

 

 

Secondary to this conversation.  This is Lulz.  

 

When this game came out I wasn't even 35.  Now I'm nearly 50. 

 

  

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, Werner said:

Guilty! It was an Invuln/SS build for a friend, and he almost flat out told me “do not plug the psi hole.” So I didn’t. At least it gives me reason to occasionally pretend I have to save him from the scary psychics. Though he doesn’t play it much these days. He complains that the rest of us don’t need a Tanker anyway. Except Pete. But we’re pretty sure Pete faceplants on purpose.

I haven't bothered plugging the Psi hole on my EA stalker.  It never seems to matter.  

 

Psi seems to be the least painful hole out there. 

[Xanatos]

16 minutes ago, Werner said:

Guilty!

 

[Werner]

19 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

 

OMG, that’s priceless! I can’t stop laughing.

[marcussmythe]

33 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I haven't bothered plugging the Psi hole on my EA stalker.  It never seems to matter.  

 

Psi seems to be the least painful hole out there. 

Psi isnt much until it is.  Arachnos doesnt bother me.  IDF and Rularru can sting through it, but their light enough that its not an issue.  Amusingly, the Psionic Clockwork dont mess me up too badly.  But Seers?  Seers are terrible. Luckily they dont show up that often.

 

Energy, OTOH.. Energy is just EVERYWHERE Endgame, and likes to travel in company with debuffs.  I think our weighting of endgame sets would be different if we saw more Neg Energy and Cold and less Energy and Psi and Toxic

[Hyperstrike]

2 hours ago, Xanatos said:

Ah, my fault for not being clearer - I meant in terms of power #s.

 

6 out of 9 of invuln's powers are res powers.

 

Thus, the slotting strategy behind it is based on that. (And given that Invuln is the baseline armour set, many of the original resist IO set bonus #s were balanced around this.)

 

Removing one of invuln's res powers, and replacing it with a regen/recovery power (lol) and...yeah...you'd start throwing everything out of whack. (Replacing it with another res power, ala Sentinel Invuln, would be fine in terms of IO bonus balance, but would be completely OP in other areas. That's why I've always advocated leaving Invuln alone. It's fine as it is.)

 

I know you know all this already. Just clarifying what I meant, above.

S'okay.  Just a difference in usage.

I won't behead you for it....THIS TIME!!!! 

[Hyperstrike]

2 hours ago, Xanatos said:

I constantly see invuln builds being shared with the psi hole unplugged.

For another thread, but there are multiple ways to "plug" the psi hole.
Only two of them address Psi Resist and Psi Defense.

*Jumps back on the rails*