When to takeover poor leadership

[Ukase]

You've seen it, I've seen it. 

You're on a pug, and it's clear that the leader may have some knowledge, but not enough to convey to everyone else what to do. 

At what point is it okay to "take over" and give direction? 

I feel so badly for the others on this team. They tried hard, but the team lead gave no direction - and when he/she did, it was clear to me at that point, they didn't understand how the abandoned sewer trial worked - or their tactic was clearly too advanced for a team as inexperienced and squishy as the rest of the team was. 

I was the only one, a blaster, who didn't die. I could go into details, but it's really sad to think of how many times that poor dominator got chewed up by hordes of ritki and hatched krakens. The MMs fared no better. Only the brute did decently, dying only once. 

 

Curious to know when you folks would take over and start giving instructions. I waited too late, forgot all about server maintenance. Saw the message after we first started, figured an hour would be plenty of time. 
And it should have been - if everyone knew what to do. They did not. When the leader finally quit, then I took over - and we had the head down to half before the ritki repaired the gens, and we knew we wouldn't have enough time. A shame, really. 

 

[Apparition]

I learned a long time ago not to PUG the Abandoned Sewer Trial.  Most people have no idea that it actually requires strategy and just think that they can steamroll it like everything else. That usually includes the person leading it.

[iBot]

I tend to ask up front if everyone understands what to do.  If yes, leave it at that.  If no, then offer to explain what to expect.  I usually wait till the first team wipe before offering suggestions.  If the team takes them, good.  If not, well then I'm reminded why I rarely PuG.

[Nerio72]

You could offer the leader advice, etc. and if it's done in a non-condescending way they might just ask you to take over themselves. Especially if they know how much you've done it. And if you don't tell them their leadership is "poor" 😉

Edited July 28, 2020 by Nerio72
clarity

[Alimorel]

If I think the lead might be unsure of what to do, I'll often send a tell. That way it shouldn't hurt their pride, if they care about that, but I can basically be like "well, I'll type to you here, and you can copy paste for the rest of the team if you want" so they can still look good. I ALWAYS think going to tells is a better way to deal with things. Fighting in a public chat is often not the best idea. Plus, I'd rather say it in tell because then hopefully I can help someone who may not know as much. I wanna believe that it'd help them at least.

[Ukase]

3 hours ago, Alimorel said:

If I think the lead might be unsure of what to do, I'll often send a tell. That way it shouldn't hurt their pride, if they care about that, but I can basically be like "well, I'll type to you here, and you can copy paste for the rest of the team if you want" so they can still look good. I ALWAYS think going to tells is a better way to deal with things. Fighting in a public chat is often not the best idea. Plus, I'd rather say it in tell because then hopefully I can help someone who may not know as much. I wanna believe that it'd help them at least.

I appreciate this bit of advice. Candidly, it didn't occur to me. Not the idea, nor the concern about the leader looking good when they're clearly not good.  But I guess they'll never improve if someone doesn't share the knowledge. And I'm sure your approach would go over better than my "Are you nuts?!" exclamation that I wanted so much to type out this morning. 

[Ura Hero]

You'll never hurt my feelings by suggesting that something could be done better.   Even though I have done most of everything in game, I don't always know the absolute best way to do everything.  I welcome anyone that can help out when I am leading.   Sometimes I forget that everyone is not on the same page I am.

 

The fastest way to grow old is to stop learning.

[Alimorel]

As a slight addendum to the above, I lead iTrials on a semi (ish?) frequent basis. However, some other people have also started leading iTrials, so I joined in on theirs because I wanted to see how they did things, maybe there was a thing or two I could learn from their way to help my way. It's also just fun to help encourage new content runners too so like, there's that as well... >.> 😄

If I see something they seem to be having issues on, I send them a tell saying something like "I've seen it done this way, I hope that info is able to help you flesh out your own way of leading these"

 

And yes, even I sometimes have bursts of "WHY?!" but I try to keep it to myself and be as neutral as possible when dealing with stuff like that... which can sometimes be hard admittedly. It's normally just counterproductive to be upset when talking with someone.

[kelika2]

just leave and make another one

[Rose]

If I don't know how to run something or if I have only run something once or twice- I ASK for help. I never try to waste anyone's time.  If the leader saw that it was going sideways and wasn't trying to do anything to stop it, then I would have started sending tells to the leader, giving them advice as to what to do next. I never would do it in front of a team... if they ignore me and it still is going sideways... either I quit or I take over. 

 

[Mageman]

The real problem with a PUG is people not knowing what their characters are good at and what they're not good at. And going into the Sewer Trials without some form of healing will mean wipes. This is a role that most MMs can do (at least, all my MMs) since you have to heal your pets, especially at low levels.

 

Steam-rolling through the Sewer Trials can be easy IF most in the group have experience with it and with their character's abilities.

[Jolly Ogre]

Ask if they know the difference between a thermite cannon and a particle cannon... if they don't then they need instructions.

[Wilky]

Play more, much more (really much). Or go back to school.

[Captain Valiant]

It's a game. It no longer costs anything real to fail and, therefore, take longer in real time to achieve a desired goal. If you don't like how someone else is enjoying themselves, don't play with them.

[Ukase]

On 8/13/2020 at 8:12 PM, Captain Valiant said:

It's a game. It no longer costs anything real to fail and, therefore, take longer in real time to achieve a desired goal. If you don't like how someone else is enjoying themselves, don't play with them.

You do know that when you start a trial or task force, that although you can quit, you shouldn't, right? When you start something, you finish it, and there's no exceptions to this when it comes to task forces or trials. You don't just quit because someone isn't playing your way, even if it's wrong. At least, I don't. If you do - well, that's not my problem. Just don't team with me - like, ever. 


When you're on the task force in question, yes, you make a note to not team with them again if they're obtuse, dense, or just a jerk. But - it's too late when you're on the trial or task force. You're committed. There definitely is a cost to failure. Lost time. Can't get that back, ever. Not even in ouroboros. 

 

Granted, things in real life happen - elderly parent or small child takes a bad fall, an urgent phone call, etc. But in the literally hundreds of task forces I've done since I started playing CoH, I've only had 2 people beg off because of something out of their control. 
 

[Captain Valiant]

To reiterate, it's a game.

I play to entertain myself. If I'm not being entertained, no amount of arguing with the person causing that lack of enjoyment will make it more entertining. Neither will "taking over" so that they'll play MY way.

 

It is clear that we don't view the playing of a game with the same degree of seriousness; which is fine with me.

 

[Ukase]

4 hours ago, Captain Valiant said:

To reiterate, it's a game.

I play to entertain myself. If I'm not being entertained, no amount of arguing with the person causing that lack of enjoyment will make it more entertining. Neither will "taking over" so that they'll play MY way.

 

It is clear that we don't view the playing of a game with the same degree of seriousness; which is fine with me.

 

That would seem to be the case. Fine with me, too. Just don't team with anyone for a tf or trial if you're that nonchalant about the commitment. 

[Captain Valiant]

Show me where "I" say I'd quit in mid tf/trial. Don't presume to tell people how to enjoy the game just because they don't play it your way.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Captain Valiant
Typo

[Ukase]

12 hours ago, Captain Valiant said:

Show me where "I" say I'd quit in mid tf/trial. Don't presume to tell people how to enjoy the game just because they don't play it your way.

If their enjoyment of the game is to play their character in such a way to as prevent the completion of the task force, then I will certainly point out that their method doesn't work. In context, from my original post - I tried it the leader's way, even though I knew it was wrong. Thus my reasoning for the initial post - when do you step in and suggest corrective action. 

And I never said that you'd say you would quit. "I play to entertain myself. If I'm not being entertained, no amount of arguing with the person causing that lack of enjoyment will make it more entertining."

 You are responsible for making your words understood, if you want to deliver a clear message. The way I read it, it was clear that if someone isn't leading the tf/trial in a way that's fun for you, you won't argue because it's not going to make things more entertaining, you'll just bail. Perhaps I was wrong. A lot gets missed in textual commentary. What is clear is you think I was telling someone how to play. I wasn't. I was telling someone the mechanics of the trial. They can use their attacks anyway they see fit. But there's a time and a place for the attacks. 

[Captain Valiant]

Your private message has been reported. "Have a nice day".

 

[MTeague]

On 8/16/2020 at 10:42 AM, Ukase said:

You do know that when you start a trial or task force, that although you can quit, you shouldn't, right? When you start something, you finish it, and there's no exceptions to this when it comes to task forces or trials. You don't just quit because someone isn't playing your way, even if it's wrong. At least, I don't. If you do - well, that's not my problem. Just don't team with me - like, ever. 

If I start a TF, I'll stay for at least 3 hours or 20 full wipes, whichever comes first.

But there is a certain point, where if we're just pounding our faces into the blender seeing if we can dull the blades, that I do feel authorized to tip the king and concede.

 

But has to involve a LOT of wipes. And many attempts to change course.  Including a pause to google for strategies we may be missing, etc.

 

I mean, in my WoW days, back in Pandaria expansion, I had no problem sucking it up and wiping for three hours STRAIGHT on Mythic Seigecrafter. 

I mean, I did repeatedly question why I was putting myself through that lol.

But I had obligations freely accepted and I was darn well going to suck it up and keep going until it was official 'Call Time'.

We eventually got him. But oh god the pain, the agony, the suffering for many weeks.

[BurtHutt]

I think you have to maybe make polite suggestions via team chat or tell. If that doesn't help then you may have to roll with it - you did sign up for a PUG. I almost always PUG and sometimes the adversity is part of the fun.

 

There isn't much you can't steamroll thanks to incarnate powers... 😞

[Crysis]

It’s a game.  Send a couple of private tells.  If no response, debt is meaningless.  Leave team whenever you want, your presence or departure is of no to little consequence beyond the moment.  Someone else will show up to tab-click just as well as you or anyone else can.  
 

Its a meaningless pastime.  Don’t take it so seriously.  Have fun until you don’t....then go find your fun elsewhere.

[Ukase]

22 hours ago, Crysis said:

It’s a game.  Send a couple of private tells.  If no response, debt is meaningless.  Leave team whenever you want, your presence or departure is of no to little consequence beyond the moment.  Someone else will show up to tab-click just as well as you or anyone else can.  
 

Its a meaningless pastime.  Don’t take it so seriously.  Have fun until you don’t....then go find your fun elsewhere.

Not really sure how to take that. But, I did ask for opinions, and need to be open to all of them. 

That said, if I had left when I knew things were going downhill, it would have left the remaining players that were inexperienced in a deeper hole than with me sticking it out. I don't think that's cool at all, in fact, I think it's a selfish move. But I thank you for your opinion and your perspective. It's every bit as valid as mine.