How could we get you to try

[Xanatos]

29 minutes ago, DrBasics said:

What you fail to realize is that even those that are NOT lactose intolerant are not going to want to eat the cheesecake because the waiter is rude.

I very much doubt someone cheesecakingly inclined will be put off by a waiter they can mute.

[DrBasics]

34 minutes ago, macskull said:

So we're once again back to conveniently ignoring the efforts of the PvP community to get new/curious players introduced to the game in a way that is friendly to them. Got it.

What? Seriously, what are you even talking about? I literally just gave a shout out to @M3z ... 

 

You know what, you win.. whatever. Say anything to win an argument and run with the victory.

Edited September 17, 2020 by DrBasics

[Xanatos]

5 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I want to come back to the very first question. 

 

You* ask how could we get some of the anti crowd to try it.  My follow on question is why do you want some of the anti crowd to try it?  I'm trying to figure out why people *want* a bigger PvP population.  I can think of a few reasons, and I'm sure there are a lot more:

 

- you think PvP will add longevity to the game.

- you think people will change their mind and really enjoy PvP if they try it (again).

- you want a higher population doing the things that you want to do.

- you want more skilled competition from a wider number of opponents.

- you are concerned with the reputation PvPers may have and you want to dispel that misconception.

- you want to gank noobs and add to your kill count.

- other?

 

Like I said, I may come back to PvP at some point, but if I don't, I don't understand why it is any skin off anyone's nose.

 

* "You" is not referring to @RageusQuitus2or anyone in particular. 

 

"Why do you want more people to play the game with?"

lol wat

[Hexquisite]

You know, if you're looking for why PvP is unattractive to a lot of players, including those who may be inclined to try it, many of the responses from PvPers in this thread provide excellent examples. . .

[macskull]

9 minutes ago, Hexquisite said:

You know, if you're looking for why PvP is unattractive to a lot of players, including those who may be inclined to try it, many of the responses from PvPers in this thread provide excellent examples. . .

If there was a certain part of the game you enjoyed, and every time a thread about that part of the game came up that thread was swamped with people saying the same wrong things about that part of the game, you'd probably get a little annoyed too. It also doesn't help when people frame their issues as complaints rather than asking for help. "I keep getting two-shot by Stalkers, nerf Stalkers" is a lot more likely to get you laughed at than "Hey, I keep dying really quickly to Stalkers, what can I do about that?"

Edited September 17, 2020 by macskull

[arcane]

I just want PvP decentralized. No other PvP game I’ve ever played forces every participant into a singular community if they want any chance of a reasonable amount of action. 

[Lines]

1 minute ago, arcaneholocaust said:

I just want PvP decentralized. No other PvP game I’ve ever played forces every participant into a singular community if they want any chance of a reasonable amount of action. 

This may just be a natural result of a low-ish overall player population.

 

Was it similar on the legacy servers, when there were more shards and a larger playerbase?

[siolfir]

8 minutes ago, macskull said:

The thread was directed at players who would PvP but because of some barrier - either real or perceived - don't.

2 minutes ago, DrBasics said:

The barrier that a lot of people have (majority in this thread) is the toxic behavior.

 

(emphasis mine)

 

I think that the barrier is mostly perceived - that some people expect that there will always be toxic behavior (there isn't; in my experience the PvP community here is one the the least toxic) and that their personal interest isn't sufficient to overcome the possibility of a toxic encounter. Almost all of my PvP encounters have been neutral-to-good in nature, but not all of them.

 

But I don't know what they expect the community to do about it, since players can't kick others out of broadcast except for their own viewing (ignore!) and can't ban players for bad behavior: that's for GMs, and then only for abusive language since entering the zone (or arena) and waiting out the timer is consent to be attacked by other players. 

[Troo]

14 hours ago, Xanatos said:

solipsistic

 It's not often I have to look up a word, and then also look up the words in the definition. Well done.

 

5 hours ago, Xanatos said:

a challenge:

1. Outline how griefers/toxic players in CoH differ from griefers/toxic players in other PVP games.
2. Outline how this difference is significant enough to be the main reason PVP is unpopular in CoH.

A1 - I'm not sure if they are different.

A2 - n/a

 

That does not mean that this is not a factor. Not all folks are drawn to it or measure it the same way.

I differed with your point that the difference between PVE and PVP was the sole reason some didn't like PVP.

I also differed with the premise that PVE is easy and PVP is hard mode. COX is just a easier game period. COX PVP isn't that hard. While skill is a factor, Build selection, Build cost and Team coordination (where applicable) all are much bigger factors.

 

[Xanatos]

21 minutes ago, Hexquisite said:

You know, if you're looking for why PvP is unattractive to a lot of players, including those who may be inclined to try it, many of the responses from PvPers in this thread provide excellent examples. . .

Given that you've already admitted you hate PVP so much that it gives you a "seething hatred for the whole of humanity", you'll forgive me if I find this peal clutching a teensy weeny bit insincere.

 

  

5 minutes ago, Troo said:

I also differed with the premise that PVE is easy and PVP is hard mode. COX PVP isn't that hard. While skill is a factor, Build selection, Build cost and Team coordination (where applicable) all are much bigger factors.

If you think CoH PVP isn't hard, then I suggest you gather 7 friends and go 8v8 over on Indominable.

 

PVP is leagues more difficult than PVE.

 

PVP makes PVE look like a glorified chat client.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Xanatos

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, Lines said:

This may just be a natural result of a low-ish overall player population.

 

Was it similar on the legacy servers, when there were more shards and a larger playerbase?

It is a natural result of real issues, yes, but doesn’t change the fact that it’s a problem.

 

On live I would say it was wayyy better pre-i13. Post i13 it wasn’t much better than this though.

[macskull]

2 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

I just want PvP decentralized. No other PvP game I’ve ever played forces every participant into a singular community if they want any chance of a reasonable amount of action. 

I think this is happening for three main reasons:

1. The size of the population as a whole. Even if the HC PvP crowd is 3-5% of the playerbase that's still a small number of people when HC's playerbase is small to begin with. Diluting the population lowers the chances you'll find PvP anywhere.
2. The ease of getting to level 50 and IOing/accolading characters. Even post-I13 there was still some level stratification and at least Siren's Call and RV were active on some servers (mostly Freedom but the PvP population sort of condensed onto that server as time went on). When you can create a new character and have them to 50, IOd, and accoladed all in that same day, there's little motivation or incentive to PvP at lower levels.
3. The state of PvP in Recluse's Victory. RV is pretty much the only active PvP zone (see #2) but some of the changes made to the game since shutdown have made PvP there pretty awful. It was busy and at least somewhat entertaining back on live because emote canceling and enterbasefrompasscode didn't exist and incarnate powers were harder to come by so most people didn't have them. Now most dedicated zone PvPers will have full T4 incarnates (which do not function separately in PvP than in PvE and are pretty imbalanced in PvP to begin with) and if you get close to killing them they'll just macro TP to their SG base. Basically, RV PvP has a tendency to be really dull unless there are multiple teams in there and that doesn't happen often.

[ShardWarrior]

19 minutes ago, Hexquisite said:

You know, if you're looking for why PvP is unattractive to a lot of players, including those who may be inclined to try it, many of the responses from PvPers in this thread provide excellent examples. . .

Fair point however it is also a fair point to say there are quite a lot of toxic idiots in the PvE world too.  There are bad apples in every basket.

[MTeague]

12 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

I just want PvP decentralized. No other PvP game I’ve ever played forces every participant into a singular community if they want any chance of a reasonable amount of action. 

I'm curious. What do you mean by "decentralized" in this context?

What changes would you want?

[macskull]

1 minute ago, MTeague said:

I'm curious. What do you mean by "decentralized" in this context?

What changes would you want?

Not the person you're asking but I'm probably correct in saying they'd like it if a player could find action in the arena or any of the PvP zones across the servers instead of just in the arena and maybe one of the PvP zones on one of the servers. I outlined a few reasons in my earlier post why this centralization seems to have happened. I think the single biggest contributing factor to the small PvP population even back on live was the I13 changes but the game has changed so much since then that the ship on reverting those has sailed.

[arcane]

1 minute ago, MTeague said:

I'm curious. What do you mean by "decentralized" in this context?

What changes would you want?

I want what’s currently just impossible per macskull. Just an ounce of PvP on other servers (think the everlasting event coming up is a good sign but it’ll probably be overrun by the same indom folks anyway). For a singular discord server to stop being cited as the one true gate to PvP enlightenment. Other zones being used wouldn’t hurt. 

 

The problem with this is (1) it’s nigh impossible due to population issues and (2) due to the current community unfortunately having to accept (1) without question, no one is even bothering to try.
 

I agree with PvP’ers that (1) they aren’t all toxic and (2) other games have toxic players too. Where my issue is is that due to these problems, in this game exclusively, our current choice is to either engage in one very specific way with a pre determined set of people or to not engage at all.

 

Not trying to be impossible, but the state of things is just that.

[Troo]

FYI for any that don't know.

 

I like PVP.

(Admittedly, I do find "Now targeting Troo, 3, 2, 1 fire" a bit lame and prefer zone and arena for 1v1. Base raids were fun but that's likely because we won far more than we lost on Justice)

 

I wish more people participated.

 

I also wish there wasn't such a barrier to entry with where the current PVP happens.

 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Troo

[barrier]

5 minutes ago, macskull said:

I think this is happening for three main reasons:

1. The size of the population as a whole. Even if the HC PvP crowd is 3-5% of the playerbase that's still a small number of people when HC's playerbase is small to begin with. Diluting the population lowers the chances you'll find PvP anywhere.
2. The ease of getting to level 50 and IOing/accolading characters. Even post-I13 there was still some level stratification and at least Siren's Call and RV were active on some servers (mostly Freedom but the PvP population sort of condensed onto that server as time went on). When you can create a new character and have them to 50, IOd, and accoladed all in that same day, there's little motivation or incentive to PvP at lower levels.
3. The state of PvP in Recluse's Victory. RV is pretty much the only active PvP zone (see #2) but some of the changes made to the game since shutdown have made PvP there pretty awful. It was busy and at least somewhat entertaining back on live because emote canceling and enterbasefrompasscode didn't exist and incarnate powers were harder to come by so most people didn't have them. Now most dedicated zone PvPers will have full T4 incarnates (which do not function separately in PvP than in PvE and are pretty imbalanced in PvP to begin with) and if you get close to killing them they'll just macro TP to their SG base. Basically, RV PvP has a tendency to be really dull unless there are multiple teams in there and that doesn't happen often.

This is proper.

 

The effect of #3 is particularly strong. The centralized PVP community, along with an informal council of captains, effectively exists to counter the stuff that would otherwise destroy 8v8 in an unmoderated form. We tried kickballs with no power restrictions. It encouraged stupid things like "oh that one dude has t4 assault + degen + judgement + 2 carnies >> he's just going to rogue the emp for 10 minutes straight and kill him over and over while we all lock and blow stuff up and whatever).

 

The unrestricted meta in this game is degenerate as hell if you look at how things like barrier or the +hp rebirth work. The optimal 8v8 is brutes, tanks, scrapper and MM's and long drawn out fights in 8v8s where dying basically means you must be playing with a steering wheel and no keys. That game is not anything that most players are interested in. That is why policing is important and that is why if you want to 8v8, you have to abide by certain rules because if zone pvp is any indication, an everything-goes scene is what made the zones so desolate.

[CaptainLupis]

40 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I want to come back to the very first question. 

 

You* ask how could we get some of the anti crowd to try it.  My follow on question is why do you want some of the anti crowd to try it?  I'm trying to figure out why people *want* a bigger PvP population.  I can think of a few reasons, and I'm sure there are a lot more:

 

- you think PvP will add longevity to the game.

- you think people will change their mind and really enjoy PvP if they try it (again).

- you want a higher population doing the things that you want to do.

- you want more skilled competition from a wider number of opponents.

- you are concerned with the reputation PvPers may have and you want to dispel that misconception.

- you want to gank noobs and add to your kill count.

- other?

 

Like I said, I may come back to PvP at some point, but if I don't, I don't understand why it is any skin off anyone's nose.

 

* "You" is not referring to @RageusQuitus2or anyone in particular. 

I think the OP made an error by aiming it at the "anti" crowd, I think if it had instead been aimed at the "currently don't PvP but are vaguely curious", it might have gone over better. Then again, maybe not...

[barrier]

23 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

 COX is just a easier game period. COX PVP isn't that hard. While skill is a factor, Build selection, Build cost and Team coordination (where applicable) all are much bigger factors.

 

How about this: show up to kickball. Bring any offense. If you hit 75% of the targets called in either of your first two matches, I'll give you 250M inf and a public apology.

Edited September 17, 2020 by barrier

[arcane]

10 minutes ago, macskull said:

Not the person you're asking but I'm probably correct in saying they'd like it if a player could find action in the arena or any of the PvP zones across the servers instead of just in the arena and maybe one of the PvP zones on one of the servers. I outlined a few reasons in my earlier post why this centralization seems to have happened. I think the single biggest contributing factor to the small PvP population even back on live was the I13 changes but the game has changed so much since then that the ship on reverting those has sailed.

Yeah i13 has to be the #1 culprit. I remember being able to find a fair amount of PvP on Triumph of all places before that. Afterwards it become pretty exclusive to Freedom, which ultimately morphed into Indomitable.

[Lines]

Just now, CaptainLupis said:

I think the OP made an error by aiming it at the "anti" crowd, I think if it had instead been aimed at the "currently don't PvP but are vaguely curious", it might have gone over better. Then again, maybe not...

I suspect 'anti' has been misused a few times to mean 'don't PvP' rather than 'against the concept of PvP' a few times.

[macskull]

4 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

I want what’s currently just impossible per macskull. Just an ounce of PvP on other servers (think the everlasting event coming up is a good sign but it’ll probably be overrun by the same indom folks anyway). For a singular discord server to stop being cited as the one true gate to PvP enlightenment. Other zones being used wouldn’t hurt. 

 

The problem with this is (1) it’s nigh impossible due to population issues and (2) due to the current community unfortunately having to accept (1) without question, no one is even bothering to try.
 

I agree with PvP’ers that (1) they aren’t all toxic and (2) other games have toxic players too. Where my issue is is that due to these problems, in this game exclusively, our current choice is to either engage in one very specific way with a pre determined set of people or to not engage at all.

 

Not trying to be impossible, but the state of things is just that.

So the PvP you're describing does exist. There is occasional PvP on servers other than Indomitable, or in zones other than RV. You can usually go into RV on Indom and there will be a few people there but like I said that PvP doesn't tend to be very high-quality in most cases. The PvP community is actively making efforts to get new players interested because a more active PvP scene is better for everyone who PvPs, and maybe some of that activity will spill out of organized arena stuff and make zone PvP more active.

[macskull]

5 minutes ago, barrier said:

How about this: show up to kickball. Bring any offense. If you hit 75% of the targets called in either of your first two matches, I'll give you 250M inf and a public apology.

I'll throw in 500M.

[arcane]

4 minutes ago, macskull said:

So the PvP you're describing does exist. There is occasional PvP on servers other than Indomitable, or in zones other than RV. You can usually go into RV on Indom and there will be a few people there but like I said that PvP doesn't tend to be very high-quality in most cases. The PvP community is actively making efforts to get new players interested because a more active PvP scene is better for everyone who PvPs, and maybe some of that activity will spill out of organized arena stuff and make zone PvP more active.

Admittedly I don’t need super high quality PvP right now. I used to duel Deathvirus a lot and it tends to just make me want training wheels after I’m out of greens in 5 minutes.