Game Balance & The Endgame

[ShardWarrior]

9 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

"Nothing but" is an exagerration that puts a narrative in my mouth I never expressed.  But we are well on our way to your hyperbolic version.  Look at how silly the differential in playtime is :D.   You chose a poor argument in this case since reality and metrics actually overwhelmingly support what I stated.

That graph is nice, but what happens when you remove Brutes who are AE farming?  What does it look like then?

Edited September 22, 2020 by ShardWarrior

[skoryy]

20 minutes ago, Kanil said:

now explain fire blast

Fire Blast is pure damage, which doesn't come with built-in +def, -def, -res, knockdown, stun, AoE knockdown, and AoE knockback.  Titan Weapon is better than comparable fire damage and it comes with all those bennies.

 

In short, this is a bad comparison.

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, Lockpick said:

I'm not sure what you are trying to show with the chart.  What does this data mean really?  If you parse the data between AE content and non-AE content I would guess you will find a significant amount of the time played on Brutes is AE and more specifically AE farming.

 

If you throw out the Brute numbers I would say that looking at the numbers seems logical to me.  They seems to correspond with the number of posts in the AT sections (somewhat) which might indicate a level of popularity.

Exactly

[ScarySai]

There's a reason why Ice comes so close to taking Fire's throne, or can occasionally beat it under certain recharge/build constraints. It's a set that has AMAZING DPA as well,

 

I'd go as far as to say Ice would be better than Fire in a lot of ways if Ice Storm did Rain of Fire's damage and/or frost breath was as good as fireball.

[skoryy]

3 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

I'm actually surprised Controllers are higher than Scrappers and Masterminds are as high as they are.

CONTROLLER SUPREMACY

 

(actually, though, 'trollers are still hella fun even if we get boatraced in the DPS meta)

[Ralathar44]

13 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

I'm not sure what you are trying to show with the chart.  What does this data mean really?  If you parse the data between AE content and non-AE content I would guess you will find a significant amount of the time played on Brutes is AE and more specifically AE farming.

The data means that the overwhelmingly most played AT is brute.  Almost played 5 times as much as the next most played AT, which is Tanker lol. 

AE players are CoH players.  But for the sake of argument let's say that 75% of the playtime of brutes was on AE.  That's not a note for excluding them from consideration, if anything that just means AE farming is keeping this game alive and that the entire teaming experience is prolly not that important at all to the majority of folks putting time in and that development time is best spent on AE instead of on giving us new arcs.

But the original argument being made I responded to was: "This does not explain the variety of ATs and power sets being created and played though.  Were this absolutely true, we would see nothing but tanks, brutes and scrappers and no one would team for anything.  Reality and posted metrics say otherwise. "

And so keeping the context, and keeping the goal posts firmly set, that originally argument is plainly not entirely accurate since we are literally seeing the opposite of a variety of ATs and power sets being played.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Ralathar44

[MunkiLord]

Instant Healing should very clearly be a toggle, but much less than it used to be. And Moment of Glory should cap HP, regen, defense, resist, debuff resist, and pretty much everything else defensive for about ten seconds. That could be fun.

 

And then Scrappers should get Super Strength and Stone Melee at the same time.

[ScarySai]

You forgot a few things, so let me "help" you.

 

 

[Kanil]

9 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Fire Blast is pure damage, which doesn't come with built-in +def, -def, -res, knockdown, stun, AoE knockdown, and AoE knockback.  Titan Weapon is better than comparable fire damage and it comes with all those bennies.

 

In short, this is a bad comparison.

yeah, you know what fire blast doesn't have as well?

momentum

 

also that spreadsheet you posted is only scrapper sets? where's the better comparable fire damage? that must the reason why speedruns at +4 are done with all tw scrappers and not all fire/fire blasters, after all

 

the boat of 'actually elec blast is more valuable than fire blast if you take away fire's damage' is such a narrow point of view that it misses what makes fire obscene in the first place to the point of where it's clearly observable that other blast sets are not picked and have little value in being picked over it in the majority of situations from a larger playerbase perspective and a high-end play perspective

 

my argument isn't that 'fire blast should be nerfed', it's that the logic of nerfing tw doesn't track when you apply it to any applicable other set from the same criteria, esp from the 'its making the game more unfun for other people because it's a wild outlier' when nearly 3x the playerbase picks fire while TW isn't even the number one spot on it's end

 

TW has the drawback of momentum that prevents folks from playing it because it's unfun to them. what drawback does fire blast have?

'woe is me, i don't do -slow on enemies'? that's the argument? really?

[Lockpick]

1 minute ago, ScarySai said:

You forgot a few things, so let me "help" you.

 

 

 

When you look at this data it does seem to indicate that the ATs are in general pretty close.  I'm not surprised to see PB, WS, and SoAs at the bottom.  As VEATs they may not have been played much on Live because you had to have a 50 to open them up, so probably less experience overall playing them.  In addition, their build mechanics are a bit more complex.

 

I'm also not surprised to see Stalkers so low when thinking back to how they were on Live.  Here though I think people are missing the boat.  I was a Scrapper on Live and here I play mainly Stalker for melee classes.  It is a completely different experience from Live.

 

 

[BurtHutt]

52 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

 

This is exactly why I stated to use AE to create new content.  I really don't think people (The Live Devs, the current Dev team, or the players) are realizing how powerful AE can be for the game.  Probably because it has a reputation for being mainly for farming.  We have a great community of people that are very creative.  We could use AE to do things like:

 

• Story arc of the month with titles and badge awards
• Create incarnate content with incarnate rewards
• Create story missions with merit rewards
• Create new task forces
• Create hard mode content
• Create new badges to go along with the created content

All of these things can be done with some minor tweaks and some time commitment by volunteers.

 

 

Maybe some people feel this way, but I have a hard time worrying about someone else.  I am interested in what I find fun.  When I first came back I was on a DP tear playing DP on various characters to find one to be my main.  No one is going to say DP is OP.

 

Now I am on a stalker kick.  I could care less if a TW/Bio scrapper can clear mobs before I can in a mission.  I can find ways to benefit a team no matter what AT I am playing and at the end of the day it is about enjoying the experience.

 

On another note, I did want to mention that I really appreciate the Dev team bringing back this game.  It was a horrible experience when it shut down and I could never find a replacement.  Extremely happy it is back and wanted to express my gratitude.

 

 

I think there have been a ton of posts regarding AE and using it to add content. I'm willing to bet any content there will not be sought after unless it becomes canon and is placed in the game somewhere. Devs have already said it's not as easy as porting things from AE into regular contacts etc. That's too bad as it would be an awesome way to add a pile of radio missions (paper etc) to the game.

 

I know that's not exactly what you were suggesting. I think any Dev's choice etc would not get much additional attention. 

[Furiant]

I just want to say that all this talk of balancing the game around incarnates is scary to me. I can barely keep my characters in basic IOS and have only done the patron arc on one character so far (a severely underslotted Defender - it was really tough and made me not want to do it again).

 

I have only the vaguest idea of what incarnates are... I assume it's the giant monsters 50s summon that just eat up the map and turn the team into a group of additional redundant pets that follow the 50 around and die to loose mobs.

 

I barely understand the proc mechanics and frankly it makes my eyes glaze over reading endless arcane theorycrafting about obtuse and complicated systens that only the highest level ultra-wealthy players can afford anyway.

 

I just want to do TFs and missions and feel like a superhero, not a super-rich-hero. I miss the old days when everyone was on more of an even playing field and everyone contributed something even if they weren't the most rarified meta build.  

[Ralathar44]

11 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

You forgot a few things, so let me "help" you.

 

 

If we drop fiery aura then we need to drop the most popular powerset of every class otherwise you're just blatantly misusing the data set via cherry picking.

[Mezmera]

4 minutes ago, Furiant said:

I just want to say that all this talk of balancing the game around incarnates is scary to me. I can barely keep my characters in basic IOS and have only done the patron arc on one character so far (a severely underslotted Defender - it was really tough and made me not want to do it again).

 

I have only the vaguest idea of what incarnates are... I assume it's the giant monsters 50s summon that just eat up the map and turn the team into a group of additional redundant pets that follow the 50 around and die to loose mobs.

 

I barely understand the proc mechanics and frankly it makes my eyes glaze over reading endless arcane theorycrafting about obtuse and complicated systens that only the highest level ultra-wealthy players can afford anyway.

 

I just want to do TFs and missions and feel like a superhero, not a super-rich-hero. I miss the old days when everyone was on more of an even playing field and everyone contributed something even if they weren't the most rarified meta build.  

And you can still do that even with SO builds.  IO's really aren't all that hard to attain, run some task forces build up those merits and redeem them for Winter Event Enhancements and sell them, 5-10 of those will fund a really nice toon.  Yes you'll want to understand maths and efficiency and what all powers do what but that's more on you than the rest of us. 

 

No one I think wants to balance the game around incarnates.  I believe those advocating for harder content are asking that there be an option available in 45-50 content for an "Incarnate" difficulty slider.  Then also add more intuitive stuff into the incarnate play which you don't need to participate in or hey get your feet wet there's more to do.   

Edited September 22, 2020 by Mezmera

[Ralathar44]

4 minutes ago, Furiant said:

I just want to say that all this talk of balancing the game around incarnates is scary to me. I can barely keep my characters in basic IOS and have only done the patron arc on one character so far (a severely underslotted Defender - it was really tough and made me not want to do it again).

 

I have only the vaguest idea of what incarnates are... I assume it's the giant monsters 50s summon that just eat up the map and turn the team into a group of additional redundant pets that follow the 50 around and die to loose mobs.

 

I barely understand the proc mechanics and frankly it makes my eyes glaze over reading endless arcane theorycrafting about obtuse and complicated systens that only the highest level ultra-wealthy players can afford anyway.

 

I just want to do TFs and missions and feel like a superhero, not a super-rich-hero. I miss the old days when everyone was on more of an even playing field and everyone contributed something even if they weren't the most rarified meta build.  

Soren Johnson: “Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game.”

[BurtHutt]

1 minute ago, Furiant said:

I just want to say that all this talk of balancing the game around incarnates is scary to me. I can barely keep my characters in basic IOS and have only done the patron arc on one character so far (a severely underslotted Defender - it was really tough and made me not want to do it again).

 

I have only the vaguest idea of what incarnates are... I assume it's the giant monsters 50s summon that just eat up the map and turn the team into a group of additional redundant pets that follow the 50 around and die to loose mobs.

 

I barely understand the proc mechanics and frankly it makes my eyes glaze over reading endless arcane theorycrafting about obtuse and complicated systens that only the highest level ultra-wealthy players can afford anyway.

 

I just want to do TFs and missions and feel like a superhero, not a super-rich-hero. I miss the old days when everyone was on more of an even playing field and everyone contributed something even if they weren't the most rarified meta build.  

Incarnate is the system in place for your toons. THey're the powers you start acquiring at level 50. They make you a lot more powerful and the system was put in place towards the latter part of the Live game. So, when you get all of these powers, a lot of the level 50 content is a breeze.

 

You don't need to know all of the details of the proc system. It's not that complex.

 

I hope you're using the Hero designer to plan out your toon. I can't make a toon without it - no chance. I won't do it! 🙂 

 

A lot of the IOs are less pricey now. You can make very good builds on the cheap. Use merits on the odd overpriced IO so you don't have to collect the $ for it.

[arcane]

4 minutes ago, Furiant said:

I just want to say that all this talk of balancing the game around incarnates is scary to me. I can barely keep my characters in basic IOS and have only done the patron arc on one character so far (a severely underslotted Defender - it was really tough and made me not want to do it again).

 

I have only the vaguest idea of what incarnates are... I assume it's the giant monsters 50s summon that just eat up the map and turn the team into a group of additional redundant pets that follow the 50 around and die to loose mobs.

 

I barely understand the proc mechanics and frankly it makes my eyes glaze over reading endless arcane theorycrafting about obtuse and complicated systens that only the highest level ultra-wealthy players can afford anyway.

 

I just want to do TFs and missions and feel like a superhero, not a super-rich-hero. I miss the old days when everyone was on more of an even playing field and everyone contributed something even if they weren't the most rarified meta build.  

It has actually never been a better time in Paragon for casual participation. Top tier builds have never been as accessible as they are now.

 

I was just telling someone last night that I remember when one purply build felt like my life’s work, not a week’s work.

[skoryy]

6 minutes ago, Kanil said:

yeah, you know what fire blast doesn't have as well?

momentum

When someone is arguing momentum counters TW having far away best in class damage and a host of buffs and knocks is when I realize I'm arguing against a Skip Bayless and I should do something more productive.

[Lockpick]

Just now, BurtHutt said:

I think there have been a ton of posts regarding AE and using it to add content. I'm willing to bet any content there will not be sought after unless it becomes canon and is placed in the game somewhere. Devs have already said it's not as easy as porting things from AE into regular contacts etc. That's too bad as it would be an awesome way to add a pile of radio missions (paper etc) to the game.

 

I know that's not exactly what you were suggesting. I think any Dev's choice etc would not get much additional attention. 

 

I would create a new category beyond Dev Choice (maybe call it Canon Content) and add rewards that are the same as the in game rewards (Badges, Reward Merits, Incarnate Components, etc.).  If you do that then I would bet you get more traction.  You would also need to add more tags and filtering options to find the content.

 

It would be no different than running Flashbacks, which I would guess a lot of people do.  I know I do a lot of flashbacks.  People can't complain about not having content when there is a ton of content available that provides the same canon experience and the same Live rewards.  Also, you could make the player created Task Force part of the WST to get more people to use it.  A ton of ways to get great content of varying levels of time commitment and difficulty.  It would just need to be planned out and tested properly.

 

 

[arcane]

3 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

If we drop fiery aura then we need to drop the most popular powerset of every class otherwise you're just blatantly misusing the data set via cherry picking.

No other archetype has a powerset that is used in a remotely similar way on a remotely similar scale to brute fiery aura.

[Doomrider]

16 minutes ago, Furiant said:

I just want to say that all this talk of balancing the game around incarnates is scary to me. I can barely keep my characters in basic IOS and have only done the patron arc on one character so far (a severely underslotted Defender - it was really tough and made me not want to do it again).

 

I have only the vaguest idea of what incarnates are... I assume it's the giant monsters 50s summon that just eat up the map and turn the team into a group of additional redundant pets that follow the 50 around and die to loose mobs.

 

I barely understand the proc mechanics and frankly it makes my eyes glaze over reading endless arcane theorycrafting about obtuse and complicated systens that only the highest level ultra-wealthy players can afford anyway.

 

I just want to do TFs and missions and feel like a superhero, not a super-rich-hero. I miss the old days when everyone was on more of an even playing field and everyone contributed something even if they weren't the most rarified meta build.  

I don't think balancing the game around incarnates is really the intent of the OP, unless i've wildly misinterpreted it it's talking more about looking at incarnate powers' and there impact on non-incarnate content. 

As far as procs go, they're actually less complicated than they are made out to be honestly especially with current mids. You don't have to be a mathemagician to know how to use them effectively.

There's still much of the game that is pre-incarnate level to play so I wouldn't worry too much about Incarnate level play (or players) infringing on your ability to just play the game on an relatively even footing with other players for a vast majority of the content. Now, or in the future.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Doomrider

[Kanil]

one thing that's funny about the incarnate content thing is that the actual incarnate arc stuff has enemies that are weaker than their outside-of-incarnate content because of the level shifting thing making it so they can't actually be +3/+4 over you ever barring the itrial stuff

 

the number of dangerous enemy groups would probably wildly increase if they were able to genuinely be +4 to you or even +1 to you in the context of regular play and not crazytown bananapants high end build play when factoring in incarnate things

 

edit:

2 minutes ago, skoryy said:

When someone is arguing momentum counters TW having far away best in class damage and a host of buffs and knocks is when I realize I'm arguing against a Skip Bayless and I should do something more productive.

and yet not a single actual point was addressed, just 'you're a crazy stupid person, bye'

 

get at me with your facts and logic, i'll take on all challengers

Edited September 22, 2020 by Kanil

[Ralathar44]

I hope people are keeping in mid that we are a very self selected group commenting here.  Most of us are very deep into the game and mechanics to the point where we not only play a 16 year old shut down game but indeed are actively commenting on its forums.  The internet 90/9/1 rule has largely been borne out in research so (in general) we're basically the 1% of the 1% most dedicated players.  We're prolly not even in a position to know what actual casual play is really like or what is easy, simple, or hard.  Remember, dunning kruger goes both ways.  People do not know how much they do not know BUT people who are very knowledgable about something vastly underestimate how much there is to learn to get where they are.  All of these hours you spent learning and getting used to your current level of knowledge are condenses down into "sound bytes" in your head that forgets about all the time you invested during the process of learning.

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Ralathar44

[ScarySai]

7 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

If we drop fiery aura then we need to drop the most popular powerset of every class otherwise you're just blatantly misusing the data set via cherry picking.

Fire armor was excluded because a majority of those characters were farm characters made for the express purpose of AE farming to get some funding going.

 

The only one cherry picking here is you, considering how you left out two important data points in your post.

[Ralathar44]

 

5 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Fire armor was excluded because a majority of those characters were farm characters made for the express purpose of AE farming to get some funding going.

 

The only one cherry picking here is you, considering how you left out two important data points in your post.

AGAIN the original argument being made I responded to was: "This does not explain the variety of ATs and power sets being created and played though.  Were this absolutely true, we would see nothing but tanks, brutes and scrappers and no one would team for anything.  Reality and posted metrics say otherwise. "

Yall just keep moving the goal posts but I'm going to keep moving them right back using the original comment and original context.  The metrics, without the cherry picked removal, show that this statement was pretty inaccurate.

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Ralathar44