VEAT improvement suggestions

[Razor Cure]

On literally ALL my toons (the ones without +rec powers), I still have end issues pre level 20. All of them. These issues can be overcome by slotting ends red in powers (especially attacks and toggles) and IOs, but I cant think of any toon were I can just go flat chat fighting without running dry. Besides those with recovery boosting powers. These issues still exist all the way to 50 in some cases, and WOULD still be there if it wasnt for IOs and incarnate stuff.

So..why do just VEATS need this boost? When they already have the improvements I mentioned earlier? (recovery inherent, low toggle count, cheaper toggles)

 

Oh no, I just remembered my Fire dom and shield scrapper and storm troller all have crappy end, lets buff EVERYTHING. Stamina buffs for everyone!

 

Which..honestly..I dont think is a bad idea. The gap between powersets with +rec tools and those without is just huge. Look at blaster recovery powers as a case in point. You can basically just go nuts at attack non stop.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Razor Cure

[metacore]

This comes down to three points in my mind.

 

1- is the inherent sufficient when compared to other inherents

2- is the power of the inherent sufficient based on what it's meant to do

3- this game is STILL based on SO's so saying slot IO sets breaks the game design rule.

 

Note: you may not agree that the game should be based on SO's but it is and until the Devs say they are rebalancing the game on IO's or IO Sets it will remain SO based.

 

[KaizenSoze]

I have been playing with different bane and widow builds on the beta server. I have probably gone through half dozen builds.

 

Even tried out the new teleport pool.

 

Bane damage is not comparable to Night Widow damage. I am guessing that Bane damage is a balanced around venom grenade. But the redraw eats into the DPS.

 

Bane suggestions:

• Add no redraw, whoever that wonderful person is who fixed the Titan Weapons animations. Please, ask them to look at Arachnos.
• This has been mentioned earlier in the thread. Change Mace Beam Volley to mace based venom grenade. Obviously, this blocks taking the solider version.

[SeraphimKensai]

I agree having a No Redraw option would be huge. So would having the ability for VEAT weapon customization.

 

The ability to take off a crab backpack would be cool, case in point I have a Soldier that switches between crab/bane on the fly. I think it would be cool if the crab legs could be retracted into the backpack would be beyond amazing.

 

As far an the initial discussion on end cost, yes it can get endurance heavy especially if using double leadership toggles, that said that is a choice and can be self mitigated to a degree. Perhaps a more practical solution since other AT's have end issues too, why not just take stamina and give it a 25% increase to it's base endmod value?

[KaizenSoze]

16 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

As far an the initial discussion on end cost, yes it can get endurance heavy especially if using double leadership toggles, that said that is a choice and can be self mitigated to a degree. Perhaps a more practical solution since other AT's have end issues too, why not just take stamina and give it a 25% increase to it's base endmod value?

Yes, all ATs have end problems sometimes into the mid or late game.

 

It's just that Arachnos's inherit is increased regen and recovery. And it not does seem up to be the task.

 

If like if blaster's inherit only gave a tiny bonus to damage. Or scrapper's crits were only 25%.

 

Those ATs would be screaming.

[Gulbasaur]

On 10/8/2020 at 1:09 PM, metacore said:

1- is the inherent sufficient when compared to other inherents

2- is the power of the inherent sufficient based on what it's meant to do

3- this game is STILL based on SO's so saying slot IO sets breaks the game design rule.

Inherents are wildly inconsistent.

 

Stalkers have a crit rate higher that stalkers, with a secondary crit mechanic on top of that. Dominators have better controls than controllers and mez protection and free endurance. Brutes have an enormous inherent damage boosting mechanism that passively rewards poor tanking (although it has been improved). 

 

Controllers have a crit effect that doesn't trigger on several different control effects (fears and confuses are excluded for some reason but are included in the incarnate equivalent). Defenders have a small conditional damage buff or endurance buff (not having endurance just isn't an issue for some Defenders). Blasters get a fairly small damage buff. Kheldians can get some respectable (but not amazing) bonuses from teaming. 

 

VEATs have... 5% more endurance. I'd like if VEAT and Controller inherents were given a second look. 

[SeraphimKensai]

22 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Yes, all ATs have end problems sometimes into the mid or late game.

 

It's just that Arachnos's inherit is increased regen and recovery. And it not does seem up to be the task.

 

If like if blaster's inherit only gave a tiny bonus to damage. Or scrapper's crits were only 25%.

 

Those ATs would be screaming.

Well how about this:

My earlier suggestion about increasing base endmod value on stamina by 25% across the board, then changing the VEAT inherent to...

Increase the effectiveness of their leadership buffs corresponding to the number of players on their team? Example:

Solo leadership buffs 1.1x

2 people on team 1.20x

3 people on team 1.30x

4 people on team 1.40x

5 people on team 1.50x

6 people on team 1.60x

7 people on team 1.70x

8 people on team 1.80x

 

[KaizenSoze]

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Well how about this:

My earlier suggestion about increasing base endmod value on stamina by 25% across the board, then changing the VEAT inherent to...

Increase the effectiveness of their leadership buffs corresponding to the number of players on their team? Example:

Solo leadership buffs 1.1x

2 people on team 1.20x

3 people on team 1.30x

4 people on team 1.40x

5 people on team 1.50x

6 people on team 1.60x

7 people on team 1.70x

8 people on team 1.80x

 

I am not against buffing stamina to make earlier levels easier for everyone.

 

Your ideal is interesting.  🙂

 

Here's how I feel the state of Arachnos are:

Everyone needs no redraw and a better inherit.

Crab soldier and Fortunatas are in a good place, except for that crab backpack. Well, giving basic controls to VEAT pets would be huge plus for crabberminds.

Night Widows are on the bubble, maybe a slight increase to AOE damage. Or my high recharge time Psychic Wail swap for Psychic Scream idea.

Huntsmen would be nicely improved with no redraw w/o any power changes. Or at least swapping their single target melee for ranged. Their single target ranged damage is meh IMO.

Pure mace banes need help. They are out melee'ed by Night Widows, out AOE'ed and debuffed by Huntsmen and Crabs, and have nothing like the bag of tricks that a Fortunata has. And trying to mix soldier and mace attacks is redraw hell.

 

[summers]

I think it's a huge shame that the crab ranged attacks are worse than the default gun attacks 😞

[Vanden]

I think people put too much stock into inherents. That's not the only thing that makes an AT, it's just one ingredient in the pot along with things like damage mods and primary/secondary selections. In the case of VEATs, the inherent was never meant to be a defining feature of the ATs, it was just something to satisfy the players who had made "must have inherent!" into part of their AT design canon.

[KaizenSoze]

8 minutes ago, summers said:

I think it's a huge shame that the crab ranged attacks are worse than the default gun attacks 😞

My guess is that pets are supposed to make up the difference.

[summers]

1 minute ago, KaizenSoze said:

My guess is that pets are supposed to make up the difference.

 

It doesn't make sense though - you don't lose access to the normal guns, so it can't be balance. It's a tax on theme.

[KaizenSoze]

1 minute ago, summers said:

 

It doesn't make sense though - you don't lose access to the normal guns, so it can't be balance. It's a tax on theme.

No idea if the original developers envisioned players mixing the powers as much as players do. 

 

Maybe their thinking was, if you went crab, you took all crab attacks. Why else would have have a crab venom and frag nade replacement?

 

Not sure what they were thinking with banes...

[Giovanni Valia]

My thoughts on VEAT improvements.

• Add No-Redraw option to all Arachnos weapons; (Mace/ Claws/ Guns
• Reduce endurance costs of Tactical Training powers or increase endurance recovery of inherent.
• Change the Bane Spider's [Crowd Control] cone into an AoE with better dmg potential.
• Allow for additional Arachnos uniform slots in the costume select screen

I feel like the Fortunata specialization is in a good place, good def/ res/ mez potential, and a T9 Nuke, besides that the rest of the VEAT specs could see improvements.

[KaizenSoze]

3 minutes ago, Giovanni Valia said:

My thoughts on VEAT improvements.

• Allow for additional Arachnos uniform slots in the costume select screen

You can get an invisible extra costume slot. I discovered this when I was writing my guide.

 

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Costumes#Soldiers_of_Arachnos

[Hew]

For me, this comes down to sucking wind endlessly at high levels on a veat, because hey! 10 toggles! and yeah some attacks too! maybe?

 

 

 

 

Yeah. Standing still, no attacks, and I am sucking down 1.4 EPS. This is WITH agility radial for +endmod! Admittedly the problem disappears when I turn on ageless, but COME ON DAWG!!!

 

Oh, I dont really die though.  27.5% def-debuf, and a 104/87.5/87.5 def to anything thats not untyped, pretty comfy. 

 

38% def to all to all in range, +30% dam to all in range, 14% tohit to all, and a -4.5% tohit smoke grenade just for good measures. 

 

But MAN where the hell is my blue bar?!!?!?!

 

[KaizenSoze]

42 minutes ago, Hew said:

For me, this comes down to sucking wind endlessly at high levels on a veat, because hey! 10 toggles! and yeah some attacks too! maybe?

 

Oh, I dont really die though.  27.5% def-debuf, and a 104/87.5/87.5 def to anything thats not untyped, pretty comfy. 

 

38% def to all to all in range, +30% dam to all in range, 14% tohit to all, and a -4.5% tohit smoke grenade just for good measures. 

 

But MAN where the hell is my blue bar?!!?!?!

 

You must be running Elude to get those numbers! Cardiac is also another good choice for end heavy builds.

 

It's usually your attacks that are draining you. Night Widows are buzz saws. Cardiac helps with that.

[Razor Cure]

45 minutes ago, Hew said:

But MAN where the hell is my blue bar?!!?!?!

Looking at the above..

4 slots in Stam, how many of those ARE end mod, and not procs? 2, at most? I assume you are running agility to make up for it..but wtf is the point of more rech and def, if you (as in, your build) has no end to actually attack?

Also..TEN toggles?

3 VEAT leaderships, 3 Normal leaderships, Veat Stealth. I am assuming you are a Fort/Widow. That is 7. With SS and cj, thats 9.

 

Having THAT much def is pretty pointless. I think the incarnate softcap is..55%? AGain..why have so much def and toggles if you cant do anything but sit there and look pretty?

[Omega-202]

2 hours ago, Hew said:

For me, this comes down to sucking wind endlessly at high levels on a veat, because hey! 10 toggles! and yeah some attacks too! maybe?

 

 

 

 

Yeah. Standing still, no attacks, and I am sucking down 1.4 EPS. This is WITH agility radial for +endmod! Admittedly the problem disappears when I turn on ageless, but COME ON DAWG!!!

 

Oh, I dont really die though.  27.5% def-debuf, and a 104/87.5/87.5 def to anything thats not untyped, pretty comfy. 

 

38% def to all to all in range, +30% dam to all in range, 14% tohit to all, and a -4.5% tohit smoke grenade just for good measures. 

 

But MAN where the hell is my blue bar?!!?!?!

 

That's a bad build.  End of story.  

[Hew]

4 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Looking at the above..

4 slots in Stam, how many of those ARE end mod, and not procs? 2, at most? I assume you are running agility to make up for it..but wtf is the point of more rech and def, if you (as in, your build) has no end to actually attack?

Also..TEN toggles?

3 VEAT leaderships, 3 Normal leaderships, Veat Stealth. I am assuming you are a Fort/Widow. That is 7. With SS and cj, thats 9.

 

Having THAT much def is pretty pointless. I think the incarnate softcap is..55%? AGain..why have so much def and toggles if you cant do anything but sit there and look pretty?

end mod, endmod + speed, chance to heal, perfshifter +end (equivalency to a 30% endmod without the ED iirc)

Endmod in stam is 114% after 119% ED (5% slotting lost due to ED).

 

I am running assault, man, weave, tough, mask, tt leader, tt man, tt assault, IW, foresight, and am a widow. 🙂

 

What you guys miss there is that it isn't for ME. Yes, I could go selfish and be self-interested. But that isn't what the build is for. It is all about team support. 

 

Consider again: 

38% def to all to all in range, +30% dam to all in range, 14% tohit to all +( recov/rech and blue refill from ageless) + (+special, damage, defense from support radial)

 

The build isn't meant to go do 4/8 itf solo 10 minutes nonsense. Those builds have their time and place. This one is to ensure that any and all teams it joins have a smoother, more comfy ride to fun while letting me scrap in peace. 🙂

 

I would just like a bit more breathing room at low and mid exemp levels 😄 

[Hew]

2 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

That's a bad build.  End of story.  

That is, well, I don't even know how to respond. Maybe read above to see what the INTENT of the build was.

[Razor Cure]

2 hours ago, Hew said:

Consider again: 

38% def to all to all in range, +30% dam to all in range, 14% tohit to all +( recov/rech and blue refill from ageless) + (+special, damage, defense from support radial)

 

The build isn't meant to go do 4/8 itf solo 10 minutes nonsense. Those builds have their time and place. This one is to ensure that any and all teams it joins have a smoother, more comfy ride to fun while letting me scrap in peace. 🙂

 

I would just like a bit more breathing room at low and mid exemp levels 😄 

Just because Veats CAN double leadership doesnt mean then have too. You want to play it as uber team support, good on you. That will (as you have seen) compromise your build in other ways. As someone else said above, why not take Cardiac or Vigor alpha? With AGeless, your rech will be good anyway, and Mindlink should be close to perma.

Also..my take. Your build is support, as you say..'to give teams a smooth ride' and then you say..'letting me scrap in peace.' Those dont really go together. If ALL your team helping powers are stopping you scrapping..well, you aint scrapping much. Screw the team (to some degree, NO team is incabable of playing without your 38% def, especially how common Manuv is) and work on yourself first.

Or go make a FF fender.

[Omega-202]

6 hours ago, Hew said:

That is, well, I don't even know how to respond. Maybe read above to see what the INTENT of the build was.

I can intend to make a team-healing focused Tanker, but that doesn't make it a good build.  As you showed, your build is basically non-functional.  By all definitions, that's a bad build.  

 

I'm all for non traditional character concepts, but you can't just slap together a bunch of garbage, get a trash result and then say "where is all of my endurance?"  By that logic, we should buff MM personal damage to help all of the petless builds.  

[Black Zot]

15 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

My guess is that pets are supposed to make up the difference.

 

They don't, though.  Spider pets hit like wet noodles unless you sic them all on one target, and they never last their duration because they die to a stiff breeze.

[Omega-202]

19 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

 

They don't, though.  Spider pets hit like wet noodles unless you sic them all on one target, and they never last their duration because they die to a stiff breeze.

None of that is true if you know how to play and build your Crab.  Few things melt single hard targets as fast.  There's a reason that a Crabbermind was the reigning Pylon king from game close until recently.  

 

If your pets are dying or you're not seeing their contribution, that's on you.  It's not hard to get the pets to 35% defense and you can tack on Rebirth Destiny to easily keep them up.  Go read any of a number of threads in the VEAT forum.