Focused Feedback: Energy Melee Revamp

[Bopper]

9 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Brutes and tanks are another matter entirely, they kinda got left out on a very, very important mechanic. 

Missed this part, but I'll address it separately because it's worth emphasizing. Energy Melee in its current version is sort of remarkable in how well it gives each AT a different benefit that helps trump the others. For example, Tankers (although they are stuck having to take Barrage), get the increased target size for Power Crash...so in a way they get a free EF version of PC (if you want to think of it that way). Then you have Brutes who get to have the high HP and resistance that the other ATs don't get, plus Fury that so so nicely plays with the high base damage of the EM attacks. Then there is scrapper, which gets the opportunity to crit for two EF, giving them Fast ET and something else in each rotation plus their magnificent AT modifiers that pairs with high base damage. Then you have Stalkers which with AS is just lulz...plus a Power Crash that is borderline OP, but only you and I seem to know that because no one has really bragged yet about Stalkers getting a TW size cone that hits harder than Foot Stomp. So I love the set for all ATs for different reasons.

[ScarySai]

7 minutes ago, Bopper said:

It is worth remembering the -100% regen is useful, as it has an exponential impact on your target's regeneration periods. Also, BS hits like a truck and is capable of performing a full crit. So, it's good. But it's maybe 80% as good as fast ET (arguably, I dunno...it's kind of situational).

I agree, but two things to address here.

 

1: Is it valuable enough to overpower ET's capabilities? All of my testing from last night suggests that ET's contribution overpowers regen ticks substantially. They can't handle the nuclear fists. I made a bigger mess out of scrapyard than Mako did.

 

2: Bone smasher doesn't get a damage buff from focus, so what you're saying is more of a point for the non-focus team there.

 

Edited October 28, 2020 by ScarySai

[Troo]

11 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Use BS before TF.

that's where build up or assassins strike goes silly 😃

[Bopper]

4 minutes ago, Troo said:

that's where build up or assassins strike goes silly 😃

You should put BU after TF. Maximize your chance to fit 3 ETs into one BU window.

[Bopper]

I'm actually surprised nobody challenged me on my claim that new EM is better than original EM (with raw damage, no crit manipulations or anything). But...I'll go back to my spreadsheets.

[siolfir]

2 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Let's not be overdramatic, now.

 

This could launch as-is tomorrow and be a wonderful set, an upgrade in every possible way.

 

I'm just interested in some...'refinement.'

I agree with this. I feel that part of the overdrama is the accusation of intent to abuse the system (which I've had two additional response posts deleted so far because I couldn't express my disagreement without adding to the drama by making my own assumptions).

 

This could launch as-is tomorrow and be a wonderful set, an upgrade over the garbage pile that was left after the previous nerfs in every possible way.

 

And I would feel inclined to skip it, despite waiting for the revisions to see what was being done for months and anticipating them for years, because of clunky mechanics that I would rather do without.

 

1 minute ago, Bopper said:

I'm actually surprised nobody challenged me on my claim that new EM is better than original EM (with raw damage, no crit manipulations or anything). But...I'll go back to my spreadsheets.

I didn't feel like doing the math, but if anything that claim alone disproves the "intent to abuse the mechanic;" what I wanted was its old feel back. One thing to consider was that the old ET was before proc abuse, and that the longer recharge, so several current sets beat the old numbers if you're looking at total damage throughput.

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, siolfir said:

didn't feel like doing the math, but if anything that claim alone disproves the "intent to abuse the mechanic;" what I wanted was its old feel back. One thing to consider was that the old ET was before proc abuse, and that the longer recharge, so several current sets beat the old numbers if you're looking at total damage throughput.

I should include in my statement no proc abuse either. Just raw Damage per second. Outperforms old EM by roughly 12%. And that was back when EP only had a 0.57s cast time.

[Tsuko]

6 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I'm actually surprised nobody challenged me on my claim that new EM is better than original EM (with raw damage, no crit manipulations or anything). But...I'll go back to my spreadsheets.

Beta EM is a "difficult" set compared to the average level of skill required for CoX, as Stj for instance, even harder on a stalker with the Crit fast AS mechanic.

 

So people with 1 hour of "test" on grey Hellions in atlas will be 100% influenced by their old memories from live, years ago.

[Troo]

6 minutes ago, Bopper said:

You should put BU after TF. Maximize your chance to fit 3 ETs into one BU window.

Ooo someone has been busy.

I was totally thinking about the TF disorient and not wanting it to miss.

6 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I'm actually surprised nobody challenged me on my claim that new EM is better than original EM (with raw damage, no crit manipulations or anything). But...I'll go back to my spreadsheets.

I saw it, I'm happy to take you at your word while thinking back to how good it was and wondering if we'd really let something like that into the wild.

 

I also don't like to take swipes at folks doing the good work. -kudos

[Mystic_Cross]

14 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Power crash is amazing, energy transfer is amazing, yet with bone smasher, I feel like I have to avoid using it to do my job better.

Emphasis mine. 

 

Have to say I agree with this. I've gotten into spots where I'd use Bar>TF instead of BS>TF and then be stuck with either burning my charge on BS or waiting a few seconds until ET is recharged. I usually choose to wait, because it feels that much more important to get that 'fast' ET. About the only time I'd actually consider burning a charge on BS would be fighting an AV/GM/Pylon... and even then I'd probably still question whether it wouldn't just be better to wait a few more seconds for 'fast' ET instead.

 

Frankly, I don't enjoy those short moments of "WTF do I do?! Wait or..." it prevents immersion for me.

 

[Direct Crit]

39 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I always envisioned it as... you got ST annihilator in Fast ET, you got AoE smasher in Power Crash, and you have jack-of-all trades support in Bone Smasher. I always view this as a 1 combo system, and Stalkers and Scrappers simply get the added niceness that they can pick two of these options instead of one. However, min-maxing tendencies are tying to chase two of the best option instead of chasing the two best options.

This makes sense except in 'Jack of All Trades' in Bone Smasher. You're not getting jack in it. This is also really only a problem for Scrappers/Stalkers because of the decision for an additional EF stack instead of additional Crit damage. I believe this situation could be solved for them 100% by simply dropping bonus EF on Crit and instead adding addition Crit damage into TF to play to the strengths of the ATs and give them what every other set has: Something to lean on for their Crit focused ATOs. Currently what happens is we want to avoid having TF crit because the extra EF amounts to no bonus damage, inherently making the bonus damage crit those sets would normally get non-existent.

The bonus on Bone Smasher is absolutely fine and works in a world of choice when you're working with a single stack of EF to bounce around for that choice, but when you introduce the 2nd stack you have no choice because it occurs at a moment where the choice has been removed. You can't chose to spend it on ET again because you just used ET. And if Power Crash isn't useful in the situation (as you're fighting a hard target for example) you merely just spend it on Bone Smasher.

Also: I flat out said earlier this is 100% a request that buffs the set further. I leave it up to the powers that be if they think the set needs that buffing at all. It is both a buff, and game-feel thing specifically for the Crit based sets.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Tactical

[Captain Powerhouse]

I been here, patiently and secretly waiting for the first gif showing 3 fast ETs in BU window...

[ScarySai]

On one hand, ET gets nerfed.

 

On the other hand, I get to see someone's health bar get erased...

[Tsuko]

1 minute ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

I been here, patiently and secretly waiting for the first gif showing 3 fast ETs in BU window...

Sorry, i avoid such things to protect Homecoming, you know 😄

[Captain Powerhouse]

Just now, ScarySai said:

On the other hand, I get to see someone's health bar get erased...

 

It's just 30% of your health, take some risks, live a little.

[Troo]

6 minutes ago, Tactical said:

This makes sense except in 'Jack of All Trades' in Bone Smasher. You're not getting jack in it.

Well played, well played.

 

6 minutes ago, Tactical said:

The bonus on Bone Smasher is absolutely fine and works in a world of choice when you're working with a single stack of EF to bounce around for that choice, but when you introduce the 2nd stack you have no choice because it occurs at a moment where the choice has been removed. You can't chose to spend it on ET again because you just used ET. And if Power Crash isn't useful in the situation (as you're fighting a hard target for example) you merely just spend it on Bone Smasher.

or just wait.. which is not fun. It does conserve endurance though.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Troo

[ScarySai]

2 minutes ago, Tactical said:

the bonus on Bone Smasher is absolutely fine and works in a world of choice when you're working with a single stack of EF to bounce around for that choice

Problem: I have even less reason to include bone smasher if I only get one charge of focus. If I only get one, and only one, no change you can possibly make to bone smasher would make it worth using over ET.

[ScarySai]

Just now, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

It's just 30% of your health, take some risks, live a little.

I meant the victim of this assault, not the user.

[Direct Crit]

Just now, ScarySai said:

Problem: I have even less reason to include bone smasher if I only get one charge of focus. If I only get one, and only one, no change you can possibly make to bone smasher would make it worth using over ET.

If that's the case then we have a false choice that needs to be addressed and something else should be added to Bone Smasher's EF expenditure to make it comparable. Optionally rather than it being offensive if we're worried about the power of the sets damage, we could lean on defensive options that are harder to quantify but could add interesting extras. EM is already very light on general control compared to other sets so if there was a heal, or temporary resistance buff attached to it, it could make it a more appealing alternative.

[ABlueThingy]

EDIT: SO WHILE I WAS TYPING Y'ALL THOUGHT YOU'D DROP THAT YOU CAN ALREADY PULL OFF A 3 ET COMBO INSIDE A BU WINDOW.  That that's basically what I was-- That kinda renders all this moot.  But for posterity's sake...

 

 

So the big threat is people getting an easy way to pull off the easy and clean and strong rotation and finally getting those Pylon numbers down to single digit? 

 

Why not increase the cost?  Let people do it but pile on more cost. 

 

1. Remove the slow animation.  It's always fast now. 
2. Give players 2 stacks of Perfect Focus from TF. 
3. If you spend a Focus stack you get "Wavering Focus."  If you use ET for ANY reason you get "Wavering Focus"
4. If you use ET while you have "Wavering Focus" you take double self-damage. Triple damage if you have 2 Wavering Focus. Four times at 3 stack.
5. Total Focus restores you, removes "Wavering Focus" and gives you back two stacks of "Perfect Focus."

 

You can either play it safe with the low damage rotation. Or go bananas with the high damage one and chew up your own life for it.  That was always kind of the deal EM offered thematically.  And it sorta plays into the theme I think.  Your fists hold the power of the sun, you need to pay attention or your wings melt off.  But there IS a smooth, fast, clean rotation.  At a cost.

 

Though if you did that... to be fair, I'd say maybe let Barrage, Whirling Hands and Energy Punch spend Perfect Focus to give you a small heal/HoT/+regen or something.  So there's a recovery rotation.

 

It technically means there's like... a dozen possible rotations of varying level of safety.  But you wouldn't be locked into them. You could mix and match on the fly as needed.  Yes it's an extra mechanic, technically.  But it mostly serves as a "u sure u wanna do that?" warning light when you decide to go ham and convert your lifeforce into painforce.

 

It's also not far off from what we have now. It just makes the extremes more extreme.  Right now you can elect to spam ET and chew up your life.  It's just kind of awkward and not super effective.  You could also not use ET to avoid the damage and recover for a rotation or two. These changes just make those two options more extreme.   You can lean into the ET and take it on the chin and risk death or you can regain your focus and recover.

 

 

Personally that would push EM over into my top three power sets. (with the CURRENT changes it's in my top 10)

 

 

 

 

...n-no this isn't just me trying to sneak /Regen back into the meta--SHUT UP

Edited October 28, 2020 by ABlueThingy

[Taboo]

5 minutes ago, Tactical said:

EM is already very light on general control

WHAT!?

 

It has stun and it has dead enemies.

[ScarySai]

6 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

.n-no this isn't just me trying to sneak /Regen back into the meta

All I'm reading here is "buff bio" 😛

[Tsuko]

1 minute ago, ScarySai said:

All I'm reading here is "buff bio" 😛

Yeah and nerf regen !

[Troo]

3 minutes ago, Tsuko said:

Yeah and nerf regen !

Booooooo

 

Back on topic. Someone is likely furiously cleaning up the last 4-5 pages.

[ABlueThingy]

12 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

All I'm reading here is "buff bio" 😛

11 minutes ago, Tsuko said:

Yeah and nerf regen !

 

...What if the damage stayed the same but after one stack of "Wavering Focus" it did stacking -10% max HP?  That would hit everyone pretty equally I think.

 

"You can have your Fast ET... but we're taking off one inch every time you use it"