Focused Feedback: Blaster Secondary Revamp

[Placta]

2 hours ago, csr said:

Electricity Manipulation / Dynamo:  The Regen and Recovery buffs don't suppress, the damage does.  The power no longer appears to do -END despite the description.

Just tested on beta. The -end is still there and mentioned in the combat log.

 

Speaking of the combat log, it's spammed with "Your Dynamo causes you to regain health and endurance at an increased rate!" every couple seconds, which makes it borderline unusable.

[Nemu]

1 hour ago, XaoGarrent said:

Blaster controls are already a losing proposition out of the box, and then you get massive nerfs on top of that and it's just no bueno. Better to ignore most control and go for more damage.

That's how I feel about most of the T8s AoE CCs regardless of their mez effect, and I especially want to challenge this notion.

On 10/24/2020 at 8:41 AM, Jimmy said:

As an AoE hold it should always have had a higher recharge similar to other Blaster Manipulation AoE mez powers

I'd like to understand the rationale behind this that's not tied to spreadsheet numbers that cares only about damage/recharge formulas and the like. What makes a mag2 aoe hold so powerful compared to a mag 2 aoe stun/confuse on blasters that warrants bumping up their recharge to 180 seconds which is comparable to blaster nukes? Is the end result not the same that you prevent LTs and minions from attacking you for a few precious seconds?

 

I get that you can stack holds easier because single target holds are more prevalent across blaster primaries and most of the secondaries with such AoE holds also have a single target hold to supplement that strategy but I don't see how that use case singularly propels AoE holds into the "broken" category to justify such treatment.

 

 

[Blackbird71]

5 hours ago, macskull said:

I don't think it's been thrown out, I think it's been adjusted. In the case of Tac Arrow, two powers were combined into one and a new power was added to replace one of the two. No significant existing functionality was lost (except the movement control/friction aspect of Gymnastics which was removed because otherwise the power would be mutually exclusive with leaping powers like Combat Jumping). With the Elec changes the set still has a sustain power, it is just getting moved from a click power to a toggle. Force of Thunder is basically back to what it was prior to I24 except now it's a guaranteed stun instead of a 50% chance and it can stun lieutenants instead of just minions.

 

The best argument you can make for a cottage-burner in these patch notes is the change to Long Range Teleport, where an existing pool power was completely replaced with a different power except the power it's replacing has been made available in a different form. Funny enough, the only actual times I can think of where a power was replaced wholesale and the original power disappeared never to be heard from again were the Gravity changes shortly after launch (Fold Space was replaced with Singularity) and the Presence pool changes in I24 (Challenge replaced with Pacify), both of which occurred under Cryptic/Paragon management.

"Adjusting" a rule vs. "throwing it out" is frankly just a case of semantics.  Yes, I did have the teleport pool changes in mind when I made this comment, as well as some of the other power changes.  With regards to Tac Arrow specifically, it's not just about individual power changes, but what those cumulative changes do to the whole set.  TA will not fit the same play styles that it did previously, at least in my case.  Maybe others were using the set differently, but these changes have fundamentally altered the mechanics of the set for me.  From my perspective, that violates the cottage rule.  Keeping with the cottage rule would be making the set more or less effective at what it does, but still maintaining the same style.  This does not.

And I'd like to know why keeping the control/friction aspect of Gymnastics would make it mutually exclusive with Combat Jumping?  We currently have this functionality on Gymnastics, and it is not mutually exclusive now, so why would it need to become so?  There is no logic to that argument.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Blackbird71

[Frostbiter]

I copied Frostbiter over to the Beta server and tried out the changes to Frigid Protection and Frozen Aura. My thoughts below:

 

Frigid Protection:

 

This power appears to be functioning like the changes intended. It's giving ticks of 6 Absorb every .25 seconds and the absorb stacks to 218ish on my Blaster. It took a bit to figure this out since there is no good feedback on what the power is actually doing now. No values are stated in the Enhancement window for the Abosrb/Heal value when you slot it and the values listed under Detailed Info doesn't match anything. I even tried the theme with numbers in the power customization (once I figured out that was what was meant by "theme"). All I got was a constant string of "6"s over my head. I quickly turned it off.

 

Final thoughts: This is a slight nerf to this powers performance IMO, which I have been expecting since the sustains came about. You can take some larger hits with the caveat that the Absorb pool takes longer to build back up. Overall this makes for more spikes in the damage you are taking with this sustain running. Please add more feedback/information to this power. If you didn't know what it was doing already, you would have a hard time figuring it out.

 

Frozen Aura:

 

The damage is nice, but the range is terrible. It doesn't even outperform Frost Breath with the terribly short range. I often had trouble hitting more than 2 mobs, even when surrounded. The sleep continues to be largely useless, since any Blaster who can work this power into their rotation already has the defenses to survive using it. Then there's the issue of Frigid Protection breaking the sleep.  😕 The other problem it has is that it only takes PBAoE sets which do not have any good Ranged Defense bonuses. This will make it hard to work into any Blaster Ranged Defense build.

 

Final Thoughts:

 

Please consider allowing PBAoEs to take Melee sets and Targeted AoEs to take Ranged sets so that there can be good options for Ranged Defense bonuses to use with them. Please change the footstomp, it looks silly when I do it in midair. Please extend the range to something larger. It says 10' but feels like 5'. Or better yet, just give /Ice Greater Ice Sword Circle.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Frostbiter

[Lockpick]

9 hours ago, Blackbird71 said:

@Lockpick For Flash Arrow, how often did you find its effects were resisted?

 

The first thing I do in nearly every fight is lay down a Flash Arrow so that I can then make attacks at a safe range without being instantly swarmed, and even single out targets if needed. If even some of the mobs resist the -Perception, my survivability can go down fast. 

 

I honestly didn't notice.  I'll do some more testing today.  I use Flash Arrow more for the -Perception along with SS and a stealth IO to help stealth mobs and consider the -ToHit to be a bonus.  I generally consider Flash Arrow to be the equivalent of Smoke Grenade from Devices.  Not sure why they would adjust Flash Arrow and not Smoke Grenade.

 

It is difficult to understand these changes when the problem trying to be solved is not understood.  It looks like a hammer searching for a nail.

[Lockpick]

4 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Perhaps removing the -tohit but leaving the -Per unresistable (making it more akin to a smoke grenade in its effect) would be an acceptable compromise?

Smoke Grenade has -ToHit as well.

[Blackbird71]

11 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

 

I honestly didn't notice.  I'll do some more testing today.  I use Flash Arrow more for the -Perception along with SS and a stealth IO to help stealth mobs and consider the -ToHit to be a bonus.  I generally consider Flash Arrow to be the equivalent of Smoke Grenade from Devices.  Not sure why they would adjust Flash Arrow and not Smoke Grenade.

 

It is difficult to understand these changes when the problem trying to be solved is not understood.  It looks like a hammer searching for a nail.

I use Flash Arrow similarly, and completely agree with the assessment of FA vs. Smoke Grenade.  The -Perception is crucial to my /TA's survival, as it allows separating fringe enemies from the group and flexible target selection, or keeping enemies at range longer to improve chances of survival (which still fails at times even with the effect being irresistible).  If even a few enemies in a group don't get hit with the -Perception, I would expect this to become much more difficult.

All around, the Tac Arrow changes have just made /Devices a more attractive option as an Archery secondary if you want tactical play.  It's a shame to have to give up on one of my only 3 level 50s, but if these changes stand then that's where I'm headed.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Blackbird71

[laudwic]

Has anyone tried out the changes to Temporal Manipulation and able to report back?

 

Really interested in how the changes for Temporal Healing are working and detail on that. 

 

The notes are next to useless to understand what the change is if you do not have experience with Cauterizing Aura.  For example, I have no idea what: "Absorb has been adjusted to match Cauterizing Aura's Heal per Second and can now stack up for up to 12 seconds" actually means.  

 

I really wish that this change was better explained to answer these two questions:

 

1.  Does the amount of absorb increase or decrease?

2.  Does the amount of time between administering absorb increase or decrease.

 

Currently soloing a blaster, and this power really has been helping.  I hope my gut is wrong but I expect this power won't be helping as much soon.

 

Also, very much against the changes to End of Time.

 

•  End of Time
  • Recharge decreased from 22s to 17s
  • Endurance cost decreased from 20.176 to 16.016
  • Damage decreased from scale 1.552 to 1.232 (per the standard damage formula

Why?  This is a power that, in my experience, is generally only going to be used once per fight if that.  It is better to have the damage higher even at the cost of higher end and the really unimportant higher recharge.  Except for blapper builds, I would expect this is an 'oh <bleep> I'm surrounded' power rather that what a blaster is going to build offence around.

 

  I don't see any good reason to change this power or any great utility or improvement that decreasing the recharge and endurance but lowering the damage brings.  If the power is consistent with the standard damage formula before the change, I would prefer if you just left it alone. 

 

[nightsinger]

Hiya I’d like to request (please) a slight visual option change to Wild Fortress. As a toggle it’s fx aren’t currently permanent. I’d love to have the option to keep its graphics while the toggle is active (just like other aura toggles) please. Pretty please? 

Thanks for your consideration. 
 

[macskull]

3 hours ago, Blackbird71 said:

"Adjusting" a rule vs. "throwing it out" is frankly just a case of semantics.  Yes, I did have the teleport pool changes in mind when I made this comment, as well as some of the other power changes.  With regards to Tac Arrow specifically, it's not just about individual power changes, but what those cumulative changes do to the whole set.  TA will not fit the same play styles that it did previously, at least in my case.  Maybe others were using the set differently, but these changes have fundamentally altered the mechanics of the set for me.  From my perspective, that violates the cottage rule.  Keeping with the cottage rule would be making the set more or less effective at what it does, but still maintaining the same style.  This does not.

And I'd like to know why keeping the control/friction aspect of Gymnastics would make it mutually exclusive with Combat Jumping?  We currently have this functionality on Gymnastics, and it is not mutually exclusive now, so why would it need to become so?  There is no logic to that argument.

Semantics:

 

"Cottage rule" tends to refer specifically to functions of powers, not sets. If two powers in a set have their functions combined and a new power replaces one of them, the functions of the old powers haven't really changed. That's what happened here (minus the jump control aspects of Gymnastics, which I'll cover later). As a whole the Tac Arrow set can still do everything it did before, unless you were standing back at max range and throwing the immob and hold at targets.

 

Re: Gymnastics and Combat Jumping - toggle powers that give +jump and movement control are supposed to be mutually exclusive. It's why you can't have, say, Ninja Run and Super Jump on at the same time. There's a "jump" group of powers that are all exclusive with each other and Gymnastics wasn't in it which was a bug.

[Mystic Fortune]

I've trying to wrap my head around the thought that people are unhappy with Tactical Arrow getting Oil Slick Arrow. While it's certainly not the same version available to Trick Arrow, it's still very much a great source of mitigation and added damage.

 

I have an Archery/TA Blaster on HC and while he hasn't really been played all that much, I feel these changes are going to skyrocket him to top of my list of 'must play' alts.

 

In fact, I threw together a quick Archery/TA build at 50 for him earlier on Brainstorm and was steamrolling through some +3x8 radios...  It was magnificent!

[csr]

5 hours ago, Placta said:

Just tested on beta. The -end is still there and mentioned in the combat log.

I saw the spam, but there was no actual END loss in my previous test.  But now there is.  I'll have to start a new toon, follow the same steps, and see if I can re-create what I saw before.

 

It is suppressing when mezzed, as it should.

[Chris24601]

10 minutes ago, macskull said:

As a whole the Tac Arrow set can still do everything it did before, unless you were standing back at max range and throwing the immob and hold at targets.

Which was pretty much what most users of Tac Arrow were doing because the entire apparent point of the set was to, as with original recipe Blasters, use range as armor.

 

As evidence of this, you see multiple posters with multiple likes each on their comments specifically complaining about the range reductions to ENA and Ice Arrow, but no complaints about the endurance and recharge increases or mag reductions to those same powers (in point of fact, said posters have indicated a willingness to trade further nerfs to duration, mag, recharge and endurance costs in order to keep the range at 80').

 

By contrast there are comparatively few comments on the Gymnastics/Acrobatics merge (mostly limited to the loss of jump control) and comments on Oil Slick Arrow have been basically a 50/50 split of "Nice" and "Skippable" which probably averages out to a solid "Meh."

 

But this is WHY we have the Test Server in the first place... to catch things like this where the particular fix breaks things in unintended ways (in this case seriously disrupting what multiple people have felt was a valid Blaster play style) and find other ways to fix them.

 

Looking into it, my suggestion would be to reduce the base duration of ENA to 9.5 seconds and Ice Arrow to 8 seconds. This would correspond to using generic 50 Range IO's to restore the lost range, but without screwing up set slotting (i.e. you could get ENA's range back up to 80' if you slotted two Range IOs, but then you can only four slot a set). Honestly, trying to fix the range via slotting just makes Frankenslotting the rest more appealing since the 5 and 6 piece set bonuses are pretty much off the table for it.

[Blackbird71]

1 hour ago, Mystic Fortune said:

I've trying to wrap my head around the thought that people are unhappy with Tactical Arrow getting Oil Slick Arrow. While it's certainly not the same version available to Trick Arrow, it's still very much a great source of mitigation and added damage.

 

I have an Archery/TA Blaster on HC and while he hasn't really been played all that much, I feel these changes are going to skyrocket him to top of my list of 'must play' alts.

 

In fact, I threw together a quick Archery/TA build at 50 for him earlier on Brainstorm and was steamrolling through some +3x8 radios...  It was magnificent!

Part of the dissatisfaction with OSA is certainly because it's a worse version of a T8 being offered as a T9.

Part of it is because that with the other options available to Tac Arrow, it's not that needed; there's not a good place for it to fit in current play strategies (as I indicated in one of my other posts, I think the nerfs to ESD Arrow were done to try to make OSA more attractive.  Instead it turned both into "meh" powers).

Personally, part of it is that my build is so tight that replacing Gymnastics with this (and merging Gymnastics with Agility) means that I'm going to have to pull slots from other powers if I want to put any sort of slotting into OSA.  That would weaken my overall build, so most likely I'd either not put any additional slots on OSA, or instead just pick a pool power that's effective without additional slotting.  Bottom line, for me it just doesn't fit in with everything else.

 

[sessa2]

Tested my Ta blaster on beta and the biggest issue for me is the change to Gymnastics, why on earth change the jump values on it? It made the set unique with the added movement control.

Now the flow with the toon feels off,and the biggest reason I actually play ta is for Gymnastics extra movement control.

This game has always been fun because of the travel powers so going in and changing a unique power like gymnastics feels wrong.

The change to ENA also changes the flow some on the toon and  I don't see how a single target immob can be such a big deal in PvE the change to Upshot must have something to do with the addition of oilslick?

 

Either way the changes to TA don't seem very well thought out and most likely I will have to shelf my TA if these changes go tru in its current state but I guess things might still change in beta before going live.

 

 

 

 

[Blackbird71]

2 hours ago, macskull said:

As a whole the Tac Arrow set can still do everything it did before, unless you were standing back at max range and throwing the immob and hold at targets.

But that's exactly how Tac Arrow works.  You start at max range and lay down some control to try to keep enemies at range as much as possible (Electrified Net Arrow/Ice Arrow/ESD Arrow), and reduce their chances of noticing/hitting you at range until you can thin their numbers (Flash Arrow).  This lets you get off as many shots as possible before they close range and you either have to reposition and try to keep range, or contend with melee defense (which tends to be weak for TA builds).

Gymnastics was a significant part of the TA defense, and the mobility aspect (combined with CJ) helped with both tactical positioning and maintaining that critical range.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Blackbird71

[kenlon]

Yeah, I can understand why the devs want, in general, to bring sets in line with each other on things like range, but the extra reach with Tac Arrow is one of it's schticks, and should be balanced around. 

[Blackbird71]

1 minute ago, kenlon said:

Yeah, I can understand why the devs want, in general, to bring sets in line with each other on things like range, but the extra reach with Tac Arrow is one of it's schticks, and should be balanced around. 

Which is exactly what people are complaining about; making the sets more like each other removes their uniqueness and changes the feel and play of each set.  I'm not going to claim that the sets have all become reskins of each other just yet, but many of these changes are moving in that direction.  I'll take unique choices over mythical "balance" any day.

[kenlon]

6 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

  I'll take unique choices over mythical "balance" any day.

The two aren't mutually exclusive - balancing sets around "this is the standard" and then picking specific attributes to break away from that standard is far better than just buckshotting out randomly varying powersets. For an example of this, TW was OP as hell because it broke the standard damage formulas in a big way, and this patch changes that. (And does it very well, making it just a very good set with better QoL than before, rather than "worst feeling to level" and "hit 50, slot IOs, become DESTROYER OF WOOOOOOOOOORLDS!" like before.)

 

Hopefully the devs will listen to the feedback in this thread and take Tac Arrow back into the shop for tweaking. 

 

EDIT: You know, to expand on that, it might be a good design idea for the devs to look at sets and decide, per each, which normal design rule it should break (if any). Because being explict, at least internally, about what gimmicks a set should have (from a design perspective rather than mechanics) would probably be helpful, given the sheer number of sets in the game.

Edited October 26, 2020 by kenlon

[Blackbird71]

Oh, they're definitely not exclusive, but balancing different powers is always more difficult than balancing similar powers, so a lot of games tend to move in the direction of "different appearance but same under the hood" out of convenience.  

There were definitely powers that needed some serious revamping, and many of the changes in this update will likely have positive effects..  Unfortunately, if Tac Arrow needed anything, it was a scalpel.  Instead it got a butcher knife.

[Vanden]

2 hours ago, laudwic said:

Really interested in how the changes for Temporal Healing are working and detail on that. 

 

The notes are next to useless to understand what the change is if you do not have experience with Cauterizing Aura.  For example, I have no idea what: "Absorb has been adjusted to match Cauterizing Aura's Heal per Second and can now stack up for up to 12 seconds" actually means.  

 

I really wish that this change was better explained to answer these two questions:

 

1.  Does the amount of absorb increase or decrease?

2.  Does the amount of time between administering absorb increase or decrease.

On 10/24/2020 at 12:10 PM, Vanden said:

For anyone wondering about the changes to the absorb toggles: its a bit of a buff and a nerf, leaning more towards a nerf, IMO. It now takes about 6.5s for the toggles to reach the level of absorb the live versions give you every 3s. However, the ticks of absorb now stack, and after 12s you reach the maximum absorb value, which is 80% higher than the maximum on live.

 

5 hours ago, Lockpick said:

I use Flash Arrow more for the -Perception along with SS and a stealth IO to help stealth mobs and consider the -ToHit to be a bonus.  I generally consider Flash Arrow to be the equivalent of Smoke Grenade from Devices.

Making Flash Arrow unresistable actually makes it equivalent to Smoke Grenade, since Smoke Grenade is resistable.

[S33k3r]

Why is it considered a good thing for Blasters to be forced into melee range? I mean, if I wanted to play melee, I'd play a Brute, Scrapper, Stalker or Tanker. I too would ask that the ranges on Tactical Arrow not be nerfed. I used to avoid melee -- and melee ATs -- like the plague. since CoH has been back, I have learned to play melee. And I still feel the same about blastes: They need all range options and NOT to be forced into melee.

[Vanden]

Just now, S33k3r said:

Why is it considered a good thing for Blasters to be forced into melee range? I mean, if I wanted to play melee, I'd play a Brute, Scrapper, Stalker or Tanker. I too would ask that the ranges on Tactical Arrow not be nerfed. I used to avoid melee -- and melee ATs -- like the plague. since CoH has been back, I have learned to play melee. And I still feel the same about blastes: They need all range options and NOT to be forced into melee.

50 and 60 feet is still dozens of feet outside of melee range.

[Blackbird71]

Going back to my initial analysis of TA (here), I thought it might be useful to prioritize the changes/reversions I'd like to see.  I'm going to separate these into two tiers; Tier 1 being the "critically needs to be addressed" stuff, and Tier 2 being the "it would be really good if it could happen" items.  Again, this is all based on my personal opinions, experience, and play style; I'm sure others will have different priorities.

 

So, in order from most important to least:

Tier 1

 1.   Flash Arrow

As I mentioned in my previous post, this one has the potential to kill my character all on its own.  Having the -Perception be unreliable, or possibly not hitting some enemies, will completely alter the way I play (if I even continue with the character at all).  I realize others may not make as much use of FA, but it's crucial to my TA tactics.  Take away the -ToHit if you have to, but don't nerf the -Perception.

 

2.  ESD Arrow

This one is a close second for me.  Changing a reliable hold that can save my character when things go bad, or help mitigate a difficult fight, into something situational that can reasonably only be slotted for one type of enemies or another is really bad.  As someone else suggested, let it keep its hold effect for all enemies, and move it to the T9 slot if the power level needs to be justified.  OSA is already a worse version of a T8 from another set, so it's really not deserving of that T9 slot anyway.

 

3.   Electrified Net Arrow  and   Ice Arrow

I'm lumping these two together because they have the same problem:  the range reduction.  Also, I realize that different players may focus on using one vs. the other.  Personally I get a lot more use out of Ice Arrow than I do ENW, as I prefer holds to immobilization, but I know others may do the opposite.  Either way, reducing the range on these drastically reduces their utility and significantly alters the way the set plays.  Reduce the strength and/or duration of the powers if you must, but keep the range intact.
 

 

Tier 2

 

4.   Gymnastics 

The new Gymnastics is mostly OK, but the loss of the mobility aspect stings a bit (not to mention, it seems thematically wrong for a power named "Gymnastics").  Some have claimed this was justified to prevent overlap with Combat Jumping, but the two powers worked together before, so I don't see any reason they could not continue to do so.  At the end of the day, it's not really a power level issue, just a fun/QoL/theme issue.  Is it game breaking if the mobility is removed?  No, but neither is it a serious balance issue if it's retained.  

5.   Upshot

I don't like the changes to Upshot, but they are probably the most defensible of any of the TA changes.  I'd rather it be tweaked a little so as not to be hit quite so heavily, but if it has to remain as proposed to bring power levels in line, then so be it, I can live with it.

6.   Oil Slick Arrow

I don't like OSA in TA at all.  As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't fit, is redundant at best, and really is just out of place.  On top of this, making it a worse version of a T8 and having it occupy the T9 slot is insult on top of injury.  The only reason this is at the bottom of my priority list is because I can just ignore it and not take it on my build, so while I think it's a bad idea at least it's the change that affects me the least.
 

Anyway, that's my take.  Hopefully at least all the Tier 1 items can be re-examined and addressed before i27 goes live.

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Blackbird71

[Chris24601]

30 minutes ago, Vanden said:

50 and 60 feet is still dozens of feet outside of melee range.

50' is the default perception range for even level mobs... so you have to move to at least the perception range of the closest mob in a spawn before starting to employ ENA (and even then just on the closest) rather than being able to initiate combat with ENA (locking down one mob of choice in the spawn) before the hostile mobs can react because you can start from 51-80' away. That's a big difference in how its currently employed.

 

Do you have much experience with the Tac Arrow set? I ask because all your arguments have been based on general design theory and not "how does it feel to actually play this set?"

 

Only listening to design theory is how D&D 4E happened; way too much focus on theory-crafting and not "how does this actually feel at the table."

 

Tac Arrow has a specific play style that is different from the other Blaster secondaries and the reason people like it is BECAUSE it is different from all the other Blaster secondaries. Other set groups are allowed to have outliers... ex. Storm Summoning under the Support sets plays very different from Empathy or Rad or Dark or Thermal or Time.

 

Do you want to take Hurricane, Tornado and Thunderstorm from my second favorite character (Storm/Dark Defender) too because Storm doesn't get a proper AoE heal and other ally buffing abilities like the majority of the other Support sets have?

 

And how is Tac Arrow any different as a set that does things a bit outside the norm?