Focused Feedback: Other Powers Changes

Wavicle · November 19, 2020

It looks to me like the devs want the set to be only Ok at AoE, not Very Good at it. It has good single target damage and good utility. Now it has Ok AoE, though only just Ok.

Parabola · November 19, 2020

6 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I would add just generally I think powers designed to be respeccd out of are poorly designed. No powers should be thought of that way, though some powers should be at least not So essential that they Can be skipped.

Yeah I agree completely. This design direction really doesn't feel like the right one to me. As has been pointed out upthread; if it is expected that a player will respec out of ToF then Dark Melee as a set has actually been made worse overall at aoe due to the throttling back of SM. I liked the old idea of changing DC into a more useable aoe and can't really see why ToF had to be changed from being anything other than a control (maybe it could stand being turned into an aoe control/debuff though).

summers · November 19, 2020

I feel there has now been great deal of feedback about how bad ToF is from a variety of perspectives. Is there any chance we can get a revision to this power?

Vanden · November 19, 2020

I get the impression that @Wavicle is right, it's just not meant to be a very strong power, and Dark Melee's strength is supposed to lie in its single-target damage and utility. It's just there so that the set actually has AoE potential to speak of.

Jacke · November 19, 2020

Well, that's disappointing.

Going back to the article by The_Gamemaster from 2006:

https://web.archive.org/web/20120904194137/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=114804

Quote

Fast Facts:
Shadow Maul is considered optional by some players and indispensable by others. It is the most endurance-efficient attack available to Dark Melee. It’s cone will often allow a player to hit two to four nonstacked mobs, depending on how cooperative mobs are and how good a player is at lining them up.

Commentary:
Shadow Maul requires a bit of tactics and practice to get the most out of. If you tend to plant your feet in a fight, then Shadow Maul will not seem all that great to you, as you will tend to hit a lot of single targets. Although its biggest point of detraction is its obvious, rooted animation, it is really not but .2 seconds slower in activation than Headsplitter (Broadsword’s ultimate attack). It just seems like eternity. One point of note on SM is that if you are getting low on Health and are thinking of Hitting Dark Regeneration, do not fire off Shadow Maul. The fact that Shadow Maul is available at Level 4 allows Dark Melee to develop faster than any other Scrapper primary in terms of its ability to take down multiple foes. Shadow Maul is my, bar none, favorite power in all of CoH. I often find myself fantasizing about what I could do with it in the workplace...

Over the years as I used Shadow Maul and the Vet/P2W/temp power Sands of Mu, I'd always try to really position my toon every time to get more targets in its arc. Which really helped offset missing if I'd at least had a chance at 2 or 3.

Then joy of joys, Shadow Maul got buffed really well. More arc, more max targets. The expanded arc was what really improved it, as I could see the difference between the buffed Shadow Maul and the unchanged Sands of Mu.

Now Shadow Maul's been nerfed a bit and Touch of Fear transformed. Let's get some numbers out of the character creators for i26p5 and i27p1:

L50 Scrapper              Damage  Cast (AT) Rge     AoE     Tgts  End     Rech   DPA   DPE    Expected AoE

Shadow Punch    both       52.55    1.056   7ft  ST           1   4.37    3.00   49.8  12.0

Smite           both       82.58    1.188   7ft  ST           1   6.86    6.00   69.5  12.0

Shadow Maul     i26p5     146.82    2.508   7ft  120° cone   10  11.02   11.00   58.5  13.3
                i27p1     146.82    2.508   7ft  120° cone    5  11.02   11.00   58.5  13.3     51.3ft²

Touch of Fear   i26p5     121.89    1.32    7ft  ST           1   8.53    8.00   92.3  14.2
                          ^^^ Damage is a typo in the power description for Scrapper Dark Melee Touch of Fear
                          ^^^ Touch of Fear for all ATs in i26 has no damage
                i27p6      81.48    2.112   7ft  6ft radius  10   8.53    8.00   38.6   9.6    113.1ft²
	       
Siphon Life     both      122.62    2.112   7ft  ST           1  10.19   10.00   58.1  12.0

Midnight Grasp  both      186.75    2.244   7ft  ST           1  11.96   15.00   83.2  15.6

Shadow Maul compares well with the ST attacks even hitting only 1 target. Hit 2 and it's phenomenal. With that arc and mobs even loosely clumped, I know I can hit 3 or more.

But to get the same performance out of i27p1's Touch of Fear, it needs to hit 3 targets when Shadow Maul hits 2.

From the raw AoE, Touch of Fear should have over twice the area to pack in its targets. But from what everyone who tested it is saying, it still feels underwhelming.

Is Touch of Fear's AoE truly a full circle of 6ft radius? Or does a mob not fall in the effective AoE if it's more than 7ft away from the Dark Melee toon? If that's the case, then it could lose up to just over half its expected AoE.

And as Touch of Fear's fear is still only on the selected target, it's now a slower fear power. ~~It also went from being the best Single Target Attack to now being the worst AoE attack.~~ EDIT: damage in the i26 Scrapper Dark Melee Touch of Fear power description is typo. Touch of Fear has no damage in i26 for any AT.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Jacke

Wavicle · November 19, 2020

6 hours ago, Jacke said:
Well, that's disappointing.

Going back to the article by The_Gamemaster from 2006:

https://web.archive.org/web/20120904194137/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=114804

Over the years as I used Shadow Maul and the Vet/P2W/temp power Sands of Mu, I'd always try to really position my toon every time to get more targets in its arc. Which really helped offset missing if I'd at least had a chance at 2 or 3.

Then joy of joys, Shadow Maul got buffed really well. More arc, more max targets. The expanded arc was what really improved it, as I could see the difference between the buffed Shadow Maul and the unchanged Sands of Mu.

Now Shadow Maul's been nerfed a bit and Touch of Fear transformed. Let's get some numbers out of the character creators for i26p5 and i27p1:
L50 Scrapper              Damage  Cast (AT) Rge     AoE     Tgts  End     Rech   DPA   DPE    Expected AoE

Shadow Punch    both       52.55    1.056   7ft  ST           1   4.37    3.00   49.8  12.0

Smite           both       82.58    1.188   7ft  ST           1   6.86    6.00   69.5  12.0

Shadow Maul     i26p5     146.82    2.508   7ft  120° cone   10  11.02   11.00   58.5  13.3
                i27p1     146.82    2.508   7ft  120° cone    5  11.02   11.00   58.5  13.3     51.3ft²

Touch of Fear   i26p5     121.89    1.32    7ft  ST           1   8.53    8.00   92.3  14.2
                i27p6      81.48    2.112   7ft  6ft radius  10   8.53    8.00   38.6   9.6    113.1ft²
	       
Siphon Life     both      122.62    2.112   7ft  ST           1  10.19   10.00   58.1  12.0

Midnight Grasp  both      186.75    2.244   7ft  ST           1  11.96   15.00   83.2  15.6
Shadow Maul compares well with the ST attacks even hitting only 1 target. Hit 2 and it's phenomenal. With that arc and mobs even loosely clumped, I know I can hit 3 or more.

But to get the same performance out of i27p1's Touch of Fear, it needs to hit 3 targets when Shadow Maul hits 2.

From the raw AoE, Touch of Fear should have over twice the area to pack in its targets. But from what everyone who tested it is saying, it still feels underwhelming.

Is Touch of Fear's AoE truly a full circle of 6ft radius? Or does a mob not fall in the effective AoE if it's more than 7ft away from the Dark Melee toon? If that's the case, then it could lose up to just over half its expected AoE.

And as Touch of Fear's fear is still only on the selected target, it's now a slower fear power. It also went from being the best Single Target Attack to now being the worst AoE attack. Shadow Punch is a better filler in a ST chain.

Touch of Fear used to do no damage. It was never a good single target attack.

Because it’s a Targeted AoE the sphere is centered on your target not on you.

Jacke · November 19, 2020

5 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Touch of Fear used to do no damage. It was never a good single target attack.

Oh, I know. Playing Dark Melee since 2006. 🙂 Thanks for pointing that out because others may not have known it.

I'd manage to miss that ToF had damage added, sometime after Siphon Life received damage I'd think.... Okay, I can't find when either power gained damage. But on i26p5, it has the damage I posted above. And in fact in i26p5 is the best ST attack, better than Midnight Grasp (except for alpha strike and it gives fear as opposed to immobilize).

EDIT: damage in the i26 Scrapper Dark Melee Touch of Fear power description is typo. Touch of Fear has no damage in i26 for any AT.

Quote

Because it’s a Targeted AoE the sphere is centered on your target not on you.

That's what I assume is the intent of the change and what the code should implement. However, is that how the power acts?

Because based upon the numbers for Scrappers, even though Touch of Fear has about 2/3 of the DPA and DPE of Shadow Maul, it also has about 2.2 times the AoE area (6ft radius circle versus 1/3 of a 7ft radius circle). If there are enough mobs in front of the Dark Melee character, Touch of Fear should be hitting about 2.2 times the number of mobs as Shadow Maul. If Shadow Maul would hit 4 mobs, Touch of Fear should hit 9. And if that was true, Touch of Fear would have about 1.5 times the summed DPA and DPE compared to Shadow Maul in a faster activating power.

Even if Touch of Fear was hitting 3 mobs for every 2 that Shadow Maul would hit, it should feel about the same for damage, again in a faster activating power.

And with the feedback of all you who've played the new Touch of Fear provided, there's no way that's true. Something is wrong in my analysis's assumptions. A couple of possibilities :

Touch of Fear, despite having what appears to be a bigger AoE, is hitting at most about the same number of mobs as Shadow Maul or worse less, due to how mobs group and are encountered.
Touch of Fear, despite having what appears to be a bigger AoE, does not have an AoE 2.2 times the size of Shadow Maul, but is less for some strange reason in the code (and I've had to work with all sorts of code, great to non-Euclidean). My example of chopping off all of the circular AoE more than 7ft from the Dark Melee character was just a wild guess.

Both separately or worse together would reduce the effective number of mobs Touch of Fear strikes, giving it the meh feeling reported.

There must be something that's killing the new Touch of Fear's feel.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Jacke

Wavicle · November 19, 2020

6 minutes ago, Jacke said:

Oh, I know. Playing Dark Melee since 2006. 🙂 Thanks for pointing that out because others may not have known it.

I'd manage to miss that ToF had damage added, sometime after Siphon Life received damage I'd think.... Okay, I can't find when either power gained damage. But on i26p5, it has the damage I posted above. And in fact in i26p5 is the best ST attack, better than Midnight Grasp (except for alpha strike and it gives fear as opposed to immobilize).

That's what I assume is the intent of the change and what the code should implement. However, is that how the power acts?

Because based upon the numbers for Scrappers, even though Touch of Fear has about 2/3 of the DPA and DPE of Shadow Maul, it also has about 2.2 times the AoE area (6ft radius circle versus 1/3 of a 7ft radius circle). If there are enough mobs in front of the Dark Melee character, Touch of Fear should be hitting about 2.2 times the number of mobs as Shadow Maul. If Shadow Maul would hit 4 mobs, Touch of Fear should hit 9. And if that was true, Touch of Fear would have about 1.5 times the summed DPA and DPE compared to Shadow Maul in a faster activating power.

Even if Touch of Fear was hitting 3 mobs for every 2 that Shadow Maul would hit, it should feel about the same for damage, again in a faster activating power.

And with the feedback of all you who've played the new Touch of Fear provided, there's no way that's true. Something is wrong in my analysis's assumptions. A couple of possibilities :

Touch of Fear, despite having what appears to be a bigger AoE, is hitting at most about the same number of mobs as Shadow Maul or worse less, due to how mobs group and are encountered.

Touch of Fear, despite having what appears to be a bigger AoE, does not have an AoE 2.2 times the size of Shadow Maul, but is less for some strange reason in the code (and I've had to work with all sorts of code, great to non-Euclidean). My example of chopping off all of the circular AoE more than 7ft from the Dark Melee character was just a wild guess.

Both separately or worse together would reduce the effective number of mobs Touch of Fear strikes, giving it the meh feeling reported.

There must be something that's killing the new Touch of Fear's feel.

lol I had no idea ToF had been given damage on Live until JUST NOW.

EDIT: Well, no wonder, it's ONLY SCRAPPERS that currently have damage on ToF.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Wavicle

Jacke · November 19, 2020

4 hours ago, Wavicle said:

lol I had no idea ToF had been given damage until JUST NOW.

Me too. Last night I got the numbers from the character creators for both i26p5 and i27p1 and though "When did Touch of Fear become so awesome ?!? And now....". And still went back to the character creator today to confirm. ToF has damage on i26p5 and Midnight Grasp is only better for alpha strike and immobilize.

EDIT: damage in the i26 Scrapper Dark Melee Touch of Fear power description is typo. Touch of Fear has no damage in i26 for any AT.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Jacke

Wavicle · November 19, 2020

Just now, Jacke said:

Me too. Last night I got the numbers from the character creators for both i26p5 and i27p1 and though "When did Touch of Fear become so awesome ?!? And now....". And still went back to the character creator today to confirm. ToF has damage on i26p5 and Midnight Grasp is only better for alpha strike and immobilize.

But only for Scrappers. No one else does damage with it.

Saikochoro · November 19, 2020

Just now, Wavicle said:

But only for Scrappers. No one else does damage with it.

I thought I read in the past that the damage displayed for ToF was a bug a long time ago. Does it actually do damage if you go in and hit a mob with it? If so, then darn I should have actually tested to confirm what I read.

Jacke · November 19, 2020

4 hours ago, Wavicle said:

But only [Touch of Fear] for Scrappers. No one else does damage with it.

Good catch. Confirmed.

EDIT: damage in the i26 Scrapper Dark Melee Touch of Fear power description is typo. Touch of Fear has no damage in i26 for any AT.

4 hours ago, Saikochoro said:

I thought I read in the past that the damage displayed for ToF was a bug a long time ago. Does it actually do damage if you go in and hit a mob with it? If so, then darn I should have actually tested to confirm what I read.

And another excellent point.

I'm assuming what's in the character creators both i26p5 and i27p1 descriptions is correct. My experience with the powers besides the old and the new Touch of Fear jive with what the numbers say. I don't think I've ever hit more than 5 with Shadow Maul and certainly at most very rarely, so its target cap reduction shouldn't change that.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Jacke

WindDemon21 · November 19, 2020

58 minutes ago, Jacke said:

There must be something that's killing the new Touch of Fear's feel.

There is, and its the radius. The same issue exists on STJ's Spinning Strike. It's why I have just now again shelved my stj scrapper. 6ft on a taoe is just not enough and is horrid. Especially since you can't position your body to maximize the aoe, it and spinning strike as well as thunder strike need to be a 10ft radius.

Though I still think spinning strike makes much more sense as a pbaor since you're spinning your body.

modest · November 19, 2020

8 hours ago, Jacke said:

And as Touch of Fear's fear is still only on the selected target, it's now a slower fear power. It also went from being the best Single Target Attack to now being the worst AoE attack. Shadow Punch is a better filler in a ST chain.

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

I'd manage to miss that ToF had damage added, sometime after Siphon Life received damage I'd think.... Okay, I can't find when either power gained damage. But on i26p5, it has the damage I posted above. And in fact in i26p5 is the best ST attack, better than Midnight Grasp (except for alpha strike and it gives fear as opposed to immobilize).

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

lol I had no idea ToF had been given damage on Live until JUST NOW.

EDIT: Well, no wonder, it's ONLY SCRAPPERS that currently have damage on ToF.

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

Me too. Last night I got the numbers from the character creators for both i26p5 and i27p1 and though "When did Touch of Fear become so awesome ?!? And now....". And still went back to the character creator today to confirm. ToF has damage on i26p5 and Midnight Grasp is only better for alpha strike and immobilize.

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

But only for Scrappers. No one else does damage with it.

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

Good catch. Confirmed.

And another excellent point.

I'm assuming what's in the character creators both i26p5 and i27p1 descriptions is correct. My experience with the powers besides the old and the new Touch of Fear jive with what the numbers say. I don't think I've ever hit more than 5 with Shadow Maul and certainly at most very rarely, so its target cap reduction shouldn't change that.

This is misinformation. Prior to the i27 Beta, Touch of Fear did not do damage on any archetype. Touch of Fear was never a high damage single target attack. It is not a high damage single target attack on the live servers.

Here are the steps that I took to verify the current status and history of Touch of Fear:

I checked RubyRed's API.
I checked the Paragon Wiki archives, and the Homecoming wiki.
I logged into my Dark Melee Scrapper on Everlasting, respecced into Touch of Fear, and tested it.
I observed my combat logs.

Touch of Fear on the live (i26) servers has the following effects on a Scrapper:

3.0 terrorize for 22.35s on target.
30.00% chance for 1.0 terrorize for 10.43s on target.
-11.25% to hit for 20s on target.

Touch of Fear on the live (i26) servers allows the following IO set types on a Scrapper:

Reduced Endurance Cost
Enhance Recharge Speed
Enhance Fear
Enhance ToHit Debuffs
Enhanced Accuracy

I understand the dislike of the i27 Beta version of Touch of Fear. I am also highly critical of the power. However, please do not spread misinformation. If other players make claims that you are unsure about, please verify the veracity of those claims prior to repeating them.

@Saikochoro was correct to ask this question:

1 hour ago, Saikochoro said:

I thought I read in the past that the damage displayed for ToF was a bug a long time ago. Does it actually do damage if you go in and hit a mob with it? If so, then darn I should have actually tested to confirm what I read.

Edited November 19, 2020 by modest
I edited my post to give Saikochoro credit for questioning this information.

Saikochoro · November 19, 2020

28 minutes ago, modest said:

This is misinformation. Prior to the i27 Beta, Touch of Fear did not do damage on any archetype. Touch of Fear was never a high damage single target attack. It is not a high damage single target attack on the live servers.

Here are the steps that I took to verify the current status and history of Touch of Fear:

I checked RubyRed's API.

I checked the Paragon Wiki archives, and the Homecoming wiki.

I logged into my Dark Melee Scrapper on Everlasting, respecced into Touch of Fear, and tested it.

I observed my combat logs.

Touch of Fear on the live (i26) servers has the following effects on a Scrapper:

3.0 terrorize for 22.35s on target.

30.00% chance for 1.0 terrorize for 10.43s on target.

-11.25% to hit for 20s on target.

Touch of Fear on the live (i26) servers allows the following IO set types on a Scrapper:

Reduced Endurance Cost

Enhance Recharge Speed

Enhance Fear

Enhance ToHit Debuffs

Enhanced Accuracy

I understand the dislike of the i27 Beta version of Touch of Fear. I am also highly critical of the power. However, please do not spread misinformation. If other players make claims that you are unsure about, please verify the veracity of those claims prior to repeating them.

I actually posted that I said that I recall reading that the damage text of touch of fear was a bug and that I thought it didn’t do damage. So I asked someone to confirm that suspicion in effort to not have the wrong idea spread. I wasn’t able to confirm myself at the time, which is why I asked.

Edit: Also, thanks for confirming.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Saikochoro

Wavicle · November 19, 2020

Oh, it just SAYS it does damage? Gotcha. That makes so much more sense. Thank you for the clarification.

Hew · November 19, 2020

So, I whipped out the good ole' tank.

Short of TOTAL saturation, this is beat. I have 6 slotted straight damage procs into ToF. In total saturation, much damage is done.

In casual play, where mobs are loosely contained, I only hit 1, maybe 2 people at once, and of that, not much chance of proc damage.

So yea, its actually really good in total saturation.

Not in total saturation? I have to revise and say yeah this is pretty crappy. But, it DOES fill the noob aoe damage niche. So I don't really know what the takeaway is...

Fix? I am not sure. For absolute casual play, on 0/1 or 0/2 content, its kinda worthless. 😕 And I am on a tank! 16 targets on a 6 foot? I don't think that is even possible, since the bubble is offset!

It is like, the power isn't really sure what it wants to be 😞 I have tried multiple slotting strategies. If I am not running "main tank" as it were, I just don't see it of value, since I cant manage agro and mob positioning to maximize it.

Frankly, to even fit 16 targets in one physical space, I bet you have to have a bigger than 6 foot bubble to start!!!

Burnt Umber · November 19, 2020

As a minor interjection, it occurs to me that people might like if the new Touch of Fear were to operate like Engulfing Darkness does on Dark Assault for Dominators.

For reference, on a Dominator, Engulfing Darkness is PbAoE that does scale 1.23616 damage in a 15 ft. sphere around the player; it casts in 2.00 seconds, recharges in 18 seconds, and costs 16.848 endurance.

I would be happy if ToF were renamed to something like "Embrace of Fear," and having the same fear effect as the new ToF, but affecting all targets in a PbAoE that did scale 1.00 damage in a 10 ft. sphere around the player; it could cast in 1.97 seconds (i.e., the same new cast animation), recharge in 30 - 40 seconds, and cost 16.848 endurance.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Vigilant Vergil

Jacke · November 19, 2020

3 hours ago, modest said:

I understand the dislike of the i27 Beta version of Touch of Fear. I am also highly critical of the power. However, please do not spread misinformation. If other players make claims that you are unsure about, please verify the veracity of those claims prior to repeating them.

It was a mistake I made. However, I clearly said I was getting the information from the i26 character creator's power description field. Not from anyone else.

Thank you, @modest, for actually checking in-game in i26 on Scrapper Touch of Fear and proving that text is wrong.

Upon hearing that the power description is incorrect and not matched by the actual power in i26, I went back and editted all my posts striking out the errant text and adding notes saying that the i26 power description is incorrect and the actual power does not have any damage for any AT in i26.

Unfortunately, we don't always have the time to check each piece of information in-game and depend on those descriptions being accurate. (I'm busy with something else for i27p1 and have very limited time for testing.) Even though there's plenty of history of description typos and in-game data mistakes. So we depend on those who do take the time to actual check in-game to provide a sanity test on what the powers actually do.

(There is some work on creating a new City of Data that will extract the power data from the game server itself, but we don't have it yet.)

But my analysis above still holds, because I'm using real game feedback on i27p1 Touch of Fear: it's underwhelming and much worse than Shadow Maul.

While the numbers imply "ToF is 2/3 the DPA and DPE of Shadow Maul but if you pack in the mobs, ToF has 2.2 times the area, so it'll be 1.5 times better."

But that implication is wrong because many have tested i27p1 Touch of Fear and it ain't that good. Possible causes:

You can't pack in the mobs into a 6ft radius circle within 7ft of the Dark Melee toon (ToF), not as well as into a 120° arc 7ft deep in front (Shadow Maul).
The numbers in the descriptions for ToF versus Shadow Maul are wrong versus the in-game numbers, or they aren't effective in-game to give the true AoE area.

Or both. And likely Street Justice's Spinning Strike suffers from the same issue.

#1 can be somewhat tested by taking record of how many mobs are close enough and who gets hit, as well as getting screenshots. Touch of Fear needs to hit 50% more mobs than Shadow Maul just to match it.

#2 can only be tested by a dev plunging into the code to see what the actual server numbers are. And whether the code that calculates the actual AoE is right.

If #1 shows that Touch of Fear is hitting those 50% more mobs and better than Shadow Maul, then almost certainly #2 is true.

If careful examination shows that #1 shows that some mobs seem to be close enough to be in the ToF AoE but never get struck, then almost certainly #2 is true.

modest · November 19, 2020

@Jacke Thank you for taking the time to correct your posts. We all make mistakes, and it shows strength of character that you took ownership and provided the corrected information.

You may find the CoH Homecoming Powers API made by @RubyRed helpful when determining how a power functions. It includes all of the back-end data for powers currently on the servers, and the data for the powers in the i27 beta.

@Bopper is also working on an updated City of Data spreadsheet. Here is a link to the version for the i27 Beta.

I agree with your conclusion that Touch of Fear is an awful power.

Gobbledigook · November 19, 2020

3 hours ago, Vigilant Vergil said:

As a minor interjection, it occurs to me that people might like if the new Touch of Fear were to operate like Engulfing Darkness does on Dark Assault for Dominators.

For reference, on a Dominator, Engulfing Darkness is PbAoE that does scale 1.23616 damage in a 15 ft. sphere around the player; it casts in 2.00 seconds, recharges in 18 seconds, and costs 16.848 endurance.

I would be happy if ToF were renamed to something like "Embrace of Fear," and having the same fear effect as the new ToF, but affecting all targets in a PbAoE that did scale 1.00 damage in a 10 ft. sphere around the player; it could cast in 1.97 seconds (i.e., the same new cast animation), recharge in 30 - 40 seconds, and cost 16.848 endurance.

Or create a power similar to Fire Aura's Burn but with a Dark animation.

They could just leave Shadow maul as it is on live but turn Dark Consumption into a 1 minute cooldown big AoE similar to Ground Zero but gives 30-50%ish endurance instead of a heal to everyone around.

I am sure lots of people can come up with some cool and interesting ideas. This version of ToF is just unimaginative and quite underwhelming.

Hew · November 19, 2020

6 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

Or create a power similar to Fire Aura's Burn but with a Dark animation.

HAHAHAHAH yes, give me TWO burns please! FA burn, DM burn. I LOVE YOU SENTIENT BEING!

Burnt Umber · November 20, 2020

30 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

They could just leave Shadow maul as it is on live but turn Dark Consumption into a 1 minute cooldown big AoE similar to Ground Zero but gives 30-50%ish endurance instead of a heal to everyone around.

I may be in the minority here: I really didn't like the proposed change to Dark Consumption as a mini-nuke the last time DM was being looked at, and I don't want it changed into an AoE attack to have in rotation. I like Dark Consumption as is - a low damage/low endurance power I can use to refill my endurance when I need to.

36 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

This version of ToF is just unimaginative and quite underwhelming.

I assume you mean the version of Touch of Fear on Test rather than my idea? Otherwise that seems a bit harsh. Admittedly, I was cribbing from an in-game power to make my suggestion, but my goal was not to make up a new power wholesale as much as to use an existing power as a mostly balanced foundation.

Jacke · November 20, 2020

2 hours ago, modest said:

You may find the CoH Homecoming Powers API made by @RubyRed helpful when determining how a power functions. It includes all of the back-end data for powers currently on the servers, and the data for the powers in the i27 beta.

I actually have that downloaded for i26 and i27, primarily for the internal icon and power names. Unfortunate, the JSON display device is me (using Notepad++), so it's tricky working through it. And the capture is lacking for temporary and day job powers, so I had to get some supplemental info that isn't as complete.

I can see the linkinfo in there for the powers. And I thought the descriptions in the character creator called from the same sources. So if that was from the internal database for the servers, why are there typos in the creator ?!? Mistakes I can understand, but they should be consistent. Are there field values like damage set to non-zero values but flags that aren't displayed effective quash the damage?

2 hours ago, modest said:

@Bopperis also working on an updated City of Data spreadsheet. Here is a link to the version for the i27 Beta.

I'll have to take a look at that.

I'm used to the old City of Data website that had (near) complete powers information displayed from a copy of the backend database copied from the servers. Similar to how CIT has a copy of the Badge and other data.

2 hours ago, modest said:

I agree with your conclusion that Touch of Fear is an awful power.

I think it's more than an awful power. I think it's a power that either can't get enough targets effectively during gameplay, has value mistakes (this one least likely), or effective code limitations that curtail its effects. Or some combination of all 3 problems. It's the only way I can see the competent devs we have now producing such a power that should be good but ends up being meh. From what I've heard, I think the same thing could be afflicting Street Justice's Spinning Strike.

And because we're in RC1 and close to RC2, we may see this go live.

If that happens, both powers will have to have a careful examination to see what's really going on. Perhaps decoding combat logs, if that can be done effectively. I've got a number of Dark Melee toons and have a Street Justice toon planned. At least ToF is a low level power, so I'll be able to experience it myself quite soon. (Damn, Touch of Fear was the Dark Melee power I skipped, this is going to be tricky....)

Burnt Umber · November 20, 2020

4 hours ago, Jacke said:

While the numbers imply "ToF is 2/3 the DPA and DPE of Shadow Maul but if you pack in the mobs, ToF has 2.2 times the area, so it'll be 1.5 times better."

But that implication is wrong because many have tested i27p1 Touch of Fear and it ain't that good. Possible causes:

You can't pack in the mobs into a 6ft radius circle within 7ft of the Dark Melee toon (ToF), not as well as into a 120° arc 7ft deep in front (Shadow Maul).

The numbers in the descriptions for ToF versus Shadow Maul are wrong versus the in-game numbers, or they aren't effective in-game to give the true AoE area.

Or both. And likely Street Justice's Spinning Strike suffers from the same issue.

#1 can be somewhat tested by taking record of how many mobs are close enough and who gets hit, as well as getting screenshots. Touch of Fear needs to hit 50% more mobs than Shadow Maul just to match it.

#2 can only be tested by a dev plunging into the code to see what the actual server numbers are. And whether the code that calculates the actual AoE is right.

If #1 shows that Touch of Fear is hitting those 50% more mobs and better than Shadow Maul, then almost certainly #2 is true.

If careful examination shows that #1 shows that some mobs seem to be close enough to be in the ToF AoE but never get struck, then almost certainly #2 is true.

I think my experience from testing the power makes me lean closer to you suggestion of #1. I can't provide any data myself, but I think the small radius causes the extra area to get wasted; since critters can attack in melee from 7 ft. out and surround the player on all sides when attacking, the area of the 6 ft. radius circle is likely to fail to encompass more than a few attackers.

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