Focused Feedback: Travel Updates: Base Teleportation, Long Range Teleporter Accolade, Special TP Powers

[ivanhedgehog]

55 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

You may want to take @GM Widower's advice on this one.  I have followed this discussion across the various posts of the last year.  This is not a change made for PvP.  Not sure why this has to be repeated so many times. 

I am not saying that this is because of pvp. I am stating what many people feel about that statement. no more no less. The reason for this change doesnt really matter, just what the result is.

[ivanhedgehog]

2 hours ago, QuiJon said:

Honestly i feel that way about a few posters that seem to sure of what the devs intentions are. However i will say this in defense of the "not a pvp nerf", over a year ago is the first time i recall a post about the exploitive nature of the slash command, and it was Macskull's post. And in that post he did say he loved the command otherwise, just wanted its use restricted for pvp. So frankly even if the issue gained notice from the player base as  a whole because of the complaints from pvp, i dont think the pvp players wanted to lose the ease the slashcommand offered outside of pvp. Essentially i dont think it was the intention to get it nerfed for all, i think they just wanted to stop people from cheating in pvp. Which can be achieved without all these BS teleport hodge-podge.

I agree, its not a pvp nerf. there are some that will never believe that is what I am saying. But no matter, I just want the best solution we can get, not just a tough luck live with it solution. I think that there have been some awesome suggestions made. I dont like posters telling us to stop giving workable solutions and "just test what you have been given".  If the devs want good feedback, there is some fine stuff here. Once we see the response to some of them we will know more. Hopefully the fix can be improved to suit a majority of people.

[Faultline]

3 hours ago, QuiJon said:

No they didnt. Is it free to get with no hoops? It is unlimited in how many uses it gets? It is on a reasonable 5 minute recharge timer? 

Addressing the recharge alone: LRT + Base Teleporter means two transfer hubs every 10 minutes, which is about the same. As much as some players are claiming that the powers need to be in much shorter cooldown, you have to remember that we have access to hard data on how much the command has been used in the server logs. The median usage per account is twice every 10 minutes, and we balanced around that; for the majority of players, twice every 10 minutes is fine, with the Supergroup Portal helping further on a team situation, and the Day Jobs being a solution to the extreme outliers that use it up to five times in 10 minutes (which happens, very, very rarely).

 

This is not to say that "lower the recharge" isn't valid feedback, or that the current recharges are set in stone. But it's just not as useful as other type of feedback. The most valuable thing to come out of this thread is that travel is annoying because there are too many powers to do the same thing eating tray space; this is something that nobody was asking to simplify before, but now that it was brought up, it is obvious that is in need of attention. It is being given attention, and changes are coming on the next patch.

 

Also, seriously, this is not a PVP nerf. One of the ways that the exploit can be used became public in the last few days, and another server had to shut down for emergency maintenance to hotfix that within hours. That was without the full extent of the exploit being known, and the hotfix only solves the one specific way it became public.

[ivanhedgehog]

7 minutes ago, Faultline said:

Addressing the recharge alone: LRT + Base Teleporter means two transfer hubs every 10 minutes, which is about the same. As much as some players are claiming that the powers need to be in much shorter cooldown, you have to remember that we have access to hard data on how much the command has been used in to the server logs. The median usage per account is twice every 10 minutes, and we balanced around that; for the majority of players, twice every 10 minutes is fine, with the Supergroup Portal helping further on a team situation, and the Day Jobs being a solution to the extreme outliers that use it up to five times every 10 minutes (which happens, very, very rarely).

 

This is not to say that "lower the recharge" isn't valid feedback, or that the current recharges are set in stone. But it's just not as useful as other type of feedback. The most valuable thing to come out of this thread is that travel is annoying because there are too many powers to do the same thing eating tray space; this is something that nobody was asking to simplify before, but now that it was brought up, it is obvious that is in need of attention. It is being given attention, and changes are coming on the next patch.

 

Also, seriously, this is not a PVP nerf. One of the ways that the exploit can be used became public in the last few days, and another server had to shut down for emergency maintenance to hotfix that within hours. That was without the full extent of the exploit being known, and the hotfix only solves the one specific way it became public.

Is the cost a possible discussion point? 10 mill per character is kinds steep, especially for a new toon you arent sure will work for you. Quantity discount?

[Faultline]

Base Teleporter is 1 million, not 10. You're thinking Supergroup Portal, the (currently) 30-minute Team one.

 

@Bionic_Flea to answer your question below, Mission Transporter and Base Transporter have always been 1 million. Team Transporter is the 10 million one.

[Bionic_Flea]

11 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

Is the cost a possible discussion point? 10 mill per character is kinds steep, especially for a new toon you arent sure will work for you. Quantity discount?

I was going to say something similar.  As an influence sink it's the same whether you get 1000 characters to pay 1 million or 100 characters to pay 10 million, but the players are much happier.

 

9 minutes ago, Faultline said:

Base Teleporter is 1 million, not 10. You're thinking Supergroup Portal, the (currently) 30-minute Team one.

 

Has it always been 1 million or was that one of the changes?

Edited October 29, 2020 by Bionic_Flea

[Faultline]

3 hours ago, QuiJon said:

If these interrupts persist it doesnt really matter how long the interrupt is. 

The plan is to make LRT and Base Transporter not have an interrupt in PVE zones. Usually I don't post changes that aren't in open beta because they are subject to change, but in this case it's something I need to get done so I'm posting about it to force myself to finish it for the next patch.

[Grouchybeast]

3 hours ago, QuiJon said:

Honestly i feel that way about a few posters that seem to sure of what the devs intentions are. 

AFAIK, there's a closed beta server and a closed beta Discord.  It's fair to assume that players who have access to those (I'm not one of them) will have seen more of the devs' thinking about these changes.

[Nerio72]

The first rule of closed beta is don't talk about closed beta. 😎

[Zhym]

22 minutes ago, Faultline said:

Addressing the recharge alone: LRT + Base Teleporter means two transfer hubs every 10 minutes, which is about the same. As much as some players are claiming that the powers need to be in much shorter cooldown, you have to remember that we have access to hard data on how much the command has been used in the server logs. The median usage per account is twice every 10 minutes, and we balanced around that; for the majority of players, twice every 10 minutes is fine, with the Supergroup Portal helping further on a team situation, and the Day Jobs being a solution to the extreme outliers that use it up to five times every 10 minutes (which happens, very, very rarely).

I'd suggest that median time between usage isn't a good metric if you're trying to avoid player inconvenience.  By definition, half the playerbase uses the command more than the median frequency—which means having the power be available only twice every ten minutes will put a crimp in the play style of half your users.  A better metric would be based on how 95% of accounts use the command.

 

Even that steps on the edge cases.  I've occasionally had to use the Teleportation Zone in rapid succession.  Usually it's because I selected the wrong zone in the menu (e.g., I picked DA instead of Echo:DA).  Being able to fix that error right away instead of waiting five minutes was awfully handy.  So I'd also suggest that what you should really look at is how 95% of accounts use the command 95% of the time.  That's the number that won't be a pain to too many users.

 

But if this is about fixing a game-breaking bug, not PvP, why have a cooldown at all?   You're deprecating (or severely limiting) a command that improves gameplay immensely for a lot of people, myself included.  I understand that there's a good reason to do that—but nothing about that reason suggests that a cooldown timer is necessary. 

[Faultline]

7 minutes ago, Zhym said:

So I'd also suggest that what you should really look at is how 95% of accounts use the command 95% of the time.  That's the number that won't be a pain to too many users.

That still puts it at 3 uses in 10 minutes. The median range in this case is pretty big, players don't screw up that often. The record holder is a single account that used it 14 times in a 10 minute period in the last month.

 

And while the complexity of having too many powers is a negative from a tray space and confusion standpoint, it is actually a strength when it comes to a teleport screwup, because you have options that are not in cooldown. Twice every 10 minutes was the baseline assuming LRT + Base Transporter and ignoring everything else.

[Zhym]

4 minutes ago, Faultline said:

That still puts it at 3 uses in 10 minutes. The median range in this case is pretty big, players don't screw up that often. The record holder is a single account that used it 14 times in a 10 minute period in the last month.

But "X uses in 10 minutes" isn't as meaningful a stat as time between uses.  I may need it twice in 30 seconds, then not use it again for half an hour.  That doesn't mean that being able to use it only every 15 minutes wouldn't be a pain for me. 

[Faultline]

Just now, Zhym said:

But "X uses in 10 minutes" isn't as meaningful a stat as time between uses.  I may need it twice in 30 seconds, then not use it again for half an hour.  That doesn't mean that being able to use it only every 15 minutes wouldn't be a pain for me. 

...which is exactly what I addresed with my next point about having multiple powers that don't share a cooldown.

[CrudeVileTerror]

*glances back and forth*

14 times, you say . . . 

*tries to think of when that was and why*

 

Little jokes aside, thank you for taking the extra time to provide the helpful information, @Faultline.

I do think a 3 Minute cooldown (10 minutes divided by 3 uses per) sounds like a pretty reasonable Cooldown.

I also like hearing that you're looking at a way to reduce some of this redundancy of Powers.  Of course, the flipside of that is to member the True Meaning of City of Heroes:   Choice!

Kind of a precarious position to be in, of course, so sympathies all around to the Dev Team in trying to untangle this particular situation in a meaningful and beneficial way.

 

I imagine it's too soon to provide E.T.A.s for the next Build that'll hit Public Beta, so I shall do what I can to encourage folks to have some additional patience at this time.

[Zhym]

Just now, Faultline said:

...which is exactly what I addresed with my next point about having multiple powers that don't share a cooldown.

Which is a different problem: for people to do what they're used to doing, they need to manage at least two powers, including finding tray space for those two powers.  It all seems a very complex way of implementing something that's not necessary.

 

But that's not really my point.  My point is merely that if you're going to invoke data analysis, the median isn't the stat you want to be looking at if you don't want to risk annoying half your users. 

 

[@Ghost]

10 minutes ago, Faultline said:

Twice every 10 minutes was the baseline assuming LRT + Base Transporter and ignoring everything else.

I think assuming LRT as a viable constant is also jumping the gun a fair bit unless the destination granting badges are going account wide; ditto for having Base Transporter across every single alt, albeit less so (transferring inf around is a headache, but the cost is still relatively low.) It's fair to say it also matters most for those unequipped alts where getting around is even more of a hassle.

[Mr. Vee]

A solo numina could be 14ish uses in 10ish minutes assuming you use mish tp for either mish 2 or 3, save TT for the last mish and use ouro to azuria. I've been known to hit all but 2 or 3 of the hunts even on a full team. Of course there's very little chance I'll still run numina without /ebfp since I already do it rarely now and never need it for TFC thanks to the ease of invader on HC. But there are plenty of folks who still always do that accolade blue side. 

[Coyotedancer]

'Was about to say... Assuming LRT availability across the board when making that calculation seems a little dicey to me. It's just not going to be that universal, I suspect. Not on every players' every alt. 

[Zhym]

On 10/26/2020 at 5:35 PM, GM Tahquitz said:

Granted, I'm advocating for Homecoming Team here, but for a moment ask what's better for the community, six people posting 400 times asking us to dismiss these changes along with a larger player base who doesn't touch the boards at all just finding out about it on Day 1, or finding a better answer after 400 people posted here once or twice each?  That's what we're after.  As you can see, there's a lot of commentary in here from a few people, not to say that it isn't all feedback, but it's time to hear from more people overall.  We're getting the word out on all of our channels and venues.  Get your friends to do the same (play the Beta!), and ask them to respond here in kind. 

I wasn't going to post my general feedback because others have captured what I wanted to say much better.  But since you asked to hear from more than a handful of people:

 

I love /enterbasebypasscode.  I love how the community has built Transportation Zones that have made an annoying part of the game less annoying (I agree with those upthread who have said that "travel is not the game").  I love how easy it is for people to help other players get access to the transportation zones—just paste a single line as a command, and you too can use it!   I find the new powers a poor substitute for reasons others have already raised: they're confusing, they're expensive (in terms of inf or opportunity cost in day jobs), they use up quickbar space, and using them with any frequency requires having all of them.  The word "baroque" is apt.

 

Having five powers to replace /enterbasebypasscode isn't bad by itself.  Needing five powers is.  So my biggest feedback is that any one of those powers should, by itself, be enough of a replacement.  Then it really is about player choice, not making people work for all those powers.  That means, IMO, cutting the cooldown timer on all the powers drastically (90s would be my choice). 

 

My other bit of feedback is that I'd really appreciate it if whatever eventually gets implemented lets us keep using the community-build transportation zones.  Because those are awesome, and I'd hate to see them become ghost zones.

[QuiJon]

53 minutes ago, Faultline said:

Addressing the recharge alone: LRT + Base Teleporter means two transfer hubs every 10 minutes, which is about the same. As much as some players are claiming that the powers need to be in much shorter cooldown, you have to remember that we have access to hard data on how much the command has been used in the server logs. The median usage per account is twice every 10 minutes, and we balanced around that; for the majority of players, twice every 10 minutes is fine, with the Supergroup Portal helping further on a team situation, and the Day Jobs being a solution to the extreme outliers that use it up to five times in 10 minutes (which happens, very, very rarely).

 

This is not to say that "lower the recharge" isn't valid feedback, or that the current recharges are set in stone. But it's just not as useful as other type of feedback. The most valuable thing to come out of this thread is that travel is annoying because there are too many powers to do the same thing eating tray space; this is something that nobody was asking to simplify before, but now that it was brought up, it is obvious that is in need of attention. It is being given attention, and changes are coming on the next patch.

 

Also, seriously, this is not a PVP nerf. One of the ways that the exploit can be used became public in the last few days, and another server had to shut down for emergency maintenance to hotfix that within hours. That was without the full extent of the exploit being known, and the hotfix only solves the one specific way it became public.

First off, thank you for replying with some idea of intent to pepper into this conversation. I think it is important to know from what angle the devs were approaching this beyond the "they obviously dont want to do that" being offered by those that think it is ok to speak for you all. 

 

I am sure it is very easy to look at data and get to the idea that a number like 1-2 every 10 minutes is a the goal. However the problem with averages is that they are not always true. For example i can come out of a mission and have not gotten a phone and be told to go back to contact which is in another zone. 1 travel through base. Then at that contact be told to go to a fed ex mission in another zone. That makes 2 travels in short progression. Then unpon reaching that one by way of teleporter in base be told to go to yet another zone for a door mission, now that is 3. And hey maybe i get to that door and it is a mission i can stealth to the end of.... there is 4. All that i could finish in 10 minutes. And perhaps after that having gotten the phone maybe a go and hour or more in the same zone without having to use a porter at all. 

 

But even if it was enough i would still have to spend 1m per character i create, and explore badge hunting for every zone i want to port to on every character i want that convenience on. And then you say oh well the day job powers then give you flexibility. But for how long. 27 day job locations need to be logged off at a week for each one. So even if i logged off at those two first to get my 60 charges, it is likely i could run out before the next 6 months  of day job earning gets me all the badges which means to keep them charged i have to choose to not earn new badges to keep a utility power open. 

 

IMO i dont see why the p2w base portal thing can not be a freebie when you belong to a super group and put on a 5 minute recharge. Now between ouro and that you have some basic utility with no further time or cost. And then if i want to do the badging etc for the rest i can do it, but i dont have to do it for every character if i dont want to. And frankly i get the idea of trying to match the use paterns, but does it really cost anything to exceed them? I mean really it is no skin off anyone's nose if the power is up more often then it is needed right? 

 

You also mention that a problem that was not known but is now is the number of teleport and travel options that are duplicate fill power slots. However I think you might find that one reason why everyone was so happy with the slash command was that it negated that need. The slash command gave the option to make a macro for your own base that took up one power slot. So there was no need to slot wentworth or base tele or any of those other powers. And though i get the idea of wanting a power to be useful, cutting the time for recharge on that one portal like i discussed above eliminates the need to over stack your slots with travel utility powers because now just a couple of them will fill all your needs you could ever have. So essentially as you say it is something to look at, well it wouldnt have to be if 1-2 powers did everything for people, it would not matter anymore. For the last year all i have had to slot was my Team Teleport power, Mission Teleport and the Macro for my base entry slash command. 

[Bionic_Flea]

Remember that /enterfrompasscode will still work when close to a regular zone SG portal or ANY players mini-SG portal.  So if each player on a TF has one it can be summoned inside the mission upon completion and you can still use the same macro and transportation hubs that you always have.

 

You also have the option to obtain (through purchase or badges) the Long Range Teleport which will get you to your destination zone quicker as you don't have to zone into and out of a base.

 

So all it really takes to keep what you currently have is to spend 1 million inf (per character) or log off next to any base portal.  I appreciate that this is a change and different and not as convenient, but it's not the end of the world either.

[QuiJon]

22 minutes ago, Faultline said:

...which is exactly what I addresed with my next point about having multiple powers that don't share a cooldown.

The problem comes in that your other "powers" in case of an oops all come at a cost. That new transporter is like 10m i think you said. well if i have 30 characters i play that is 300m influence to buy that for them all, then there is the 1m dollar one also, now i am up to 330m. (keeping in mind last major patch you cut my ability to farm influence by about a third to half.) Oh but i guess i can just use the free LRT right? Well no not unless i have spent and afternoon farming through explorer badges for that toon i might not be able to get to where i want to go. And that is 30 toons of explorer badges to farm because they are not account wide either. But if i am lucky i could have spent 2 weeks NOT playing my toons so as i can earn the day job badges that give me the best flexibility in recharge times but have a limited amount of uses and to earn more means leaving the toon logged out for long periods of time and not being able to earn new badges while i am doing it. 

 

So why not cut the 10 minute recharge to 5. Now i have a portal to open and if i make a mistake i have ouro portal still i can use to hop to a zone to catch a quick tram or tunnel or at least i can do only 1-2 zones to make LRT do that for me as well and that flexibility of use is back and my ability to fill in the gaps doesnt come at the expense of time, influence, and being able to play the parts of the game i wish to play with the time i have to play. That doesnt mean the other powers cant be there, it just means it becomes my choice if i want to take the time to earn them or not. 

[Faultline]

Honestly I think I'm going to leave this thread alone until the next patch hits, because some of the points that keep being raised have been addressed already internally and it makes the discussion tedious when the posts are based on what, to me, is no longer the case. I'll check back after the next patch.

[@Ghost]

2 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

So all it really takes to keep what you currently have is to spend 1 million inf (per character) or log off next to any base portal.  I appreciate that this is a change and different and not as convenient, but it's not the end of the world either.

Spending a million inf per alt and logging off by a base portal for 4 days and continuing to log off exclusively by one to kinda maintain what already exists is definitely a noticeable downgrade in convenience, imo. I'm just imagining the fresh character scenario in my head of rolling up something new and being annoyed I have to sit around for that day job to access the best version of that transporter power, and it tripping up my dumb efficiency brain to make me feel like I need to keep going back and parking myself by one every time I log off.

[Bionic_Flea]

By the way, logging off by a base portal (once you have the appropriate day job badges) gets you charges to BOTH a base TP AND the mini-SG portal.