New Argument and Proof in Favor of Increased Aggro Cap

[Solarverse]

So the biggest argument against a higher aggro cap is that it will lead to Tanks going back in to the herding mentality and people fearing the "Wait here" mentality will once again reign in City of Heroes. It was a valid argument at the time, however, since then I had the chance to actually test out this theory to see for myself...in today's game under today's game mechanics, would it even be worth it for Tanks to herd maps if the aggro cap were to increase?

 

The short answer is no. Absolutely not.

So the proposed change to raise the aggro cap has not been a limitless aggro cap. Typically people have been asking for a double or even triple aggro cap. To the best of my knowledge, nobody has requested a limitless aggro. However, even if they did, the tests that I have conducted was pretty conclusive that even if the aggro cap were to be lifted all together, and even if the target cap were lifted all together (meaning your AoEs will hit anything in ranged, not just a limited amount of NPCs) it will still be counter productive to herd maps as a Tank. It would be completely pointless to say, "Wait here while I go aggro the map" and I have evidence that supports this.

I went to the We Have Cake server where there is no aggro cap and no limit to how many NPCs your powers will hit. My findings is as such...

 

NPC's still lose aggro over time if they are not periodically damaged or debuffed or affected in some type of way...and they tend to lose aggro quite quickly. So when attempting to herd, a Tank will have to continuously go back and make sure that he/she still has the attention of the mobs following him/her. This was a nerf that was implemented before the aggro cap had been set in to place. Previously, the NPC's would aggro for a VERY long time without a Tank having to constantly regain the aggro. NPCs would follow Tanks regardless of how long ago the Tank would aggro the mob.

Secondly, all of the ambush mobs that were once in the game and the missions therein, have since been removed. The days of just running around Chimera and his Guards map and triggering all the ambush mobs is a thing of the past. Those ambush mobs no longer exist.

 

So due to these two changes that would still be in place even if the aggro cap were to be increased, Tanks trying to herd would be a complete waste of time.

Now, what would we have to gain from an aggro cap increase double what it is today? I believe and continue to stand by the statement that mobs will simply no longer stand around and pretend like you are not even there. They would aggro and fight you instead of being oblivious to your presence. This IMO alone is reason enough. It just doesn't feel right when mobs clearly see you yet take no action. They don't run away, they don't attack, they just....stand there....waiting their turn like some B-Rate movie.

If you care to see the video, I cannot post it here due to the forum rules. However, if you go to my Youtube page which can be found below, you can find a video named City of Heroes Herding which can be found at the bottom of the City of Heroes Related Videos playlist. Once you view this, you will clearly see how much time it takes to herd a large mob even with no aggro limit, and how often I had to turn back and garner the attention of mob in order to keep them aggroed to me. Once it is said and done, you will clearly see that herding just is not worth the effort in today's game and I think the fear of what Tanks would do is clearly unfounded when you add in the other mechanics at play that prevent herding as a power leveling tool or a team strategy. 

I think this video shows evidence that speaks volumes in that raising the aggro cap by double could do nothing but actually help makes this game more enjoyable. After viewing the video, I ask that you take this in to consideration and then let me know, after the evidence in which has been submitted and after reading what I wrote, why you still believe that doubling the aggro cap would be such a bad idea as opposed to an idea that would actually make the game more enjoyable?

Thanks for your time. Looking forward to chatting a bit about this.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEOq5JVVNnjJGlfmGB5YCVQ
 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Solarverse

[Outrider_01]

If Bill, Will, Bob, Rob, Joe, Ted, Frank, Curtis, Bart, Burt, Fred, Jack, Dave, James, Rick, Sam, and John can't stop the Hulk..why would more guts jump him?

 

Proof it isn't need

[Solarverse]

Just now, Outrider_01 said:

If Bill, Will, Bob, Rob, Joe, Ted, Frank, Curtis, Bart, Burt, Fred, Jack, Dave, James, Rick, Sam, and John can't stop the Hulk..why would more guts jump him?

 

Proof it isn't need

If Bill, Will, Bob, Rob, Joe, Ted, Frank, Curtis, Bart, Burt, Fred, Jack, Dave, James, Rick, Sam, and John can't stop the Hulk...why just stand there and wait your turn to get stomped by the Hulk instead of giving yourself a fighting chance by adding the numbers against Hulk...or hell...run?

Countered.

[Razor Cure]

Hmm. It is interesting. If we had increased aggro caps but NO incease in aoe no. of targets..that seems pretty pointless to me. Sure, mobs wont be standing around, but a team wont be ABLE to even hurt that other mobs (barring judgements and perhaps a team of tankers)..

 

Yes, it would make a fight more 'realistic' (cause..realism is so important in a game with super powers) but little else. It would make things harder in fact, with an extra X baddies shooting at you. Of course, some people may like that, but if a team isn't dying with 2-3 mobs, they most likely wont to 5-6.

 

When would the multiple mobs actually come into play? More ambushes? Bigger ambushes?

One of the biggest ambushes I can think of in in Renault SF, when Cida and CO show up, but even then, it is basically one mob at a time. Making it more may just make it stupidly hard for some teams.

 

Back to your point about mobs not standing around..You would enjoy it. Others would too. And still others would just hate it, or NEVER actually experience it. How many teams, even full incarnate teams, try to herd 4+ mobs to a single spot? Even in a full League, I have literally NEVER seen it. Some of the iTrials have HUGE mobs, like Magi (the guards right at the front) or Underground (the last fight, room full of DE) true...but those mobs are SO damn huge, no team would stand back and say 'Hang on guys, with no aggro cap, I can herd the next two rooms also!'

Ok, a team may do that, but it would be rare, and you can bet people would get bored waiting and Leroy ahead anyway.

 

I just don't see the point of a higher aggro cap being relevant in enough situations. Unless target caps went up too, which would be fun, but not needed.

 

In regard to mobs standing about:

I saw this video on YouTube. Part of the GQ series where an expert comes in and goes over movies scenes. This one was featuring an MMA fighter, talknig about various fight scenes. He made a good point, that when fighting multiple people (in movies), like 70% of the guys (say 1 vs 10) will be on the edge of combat, floating about, trying to 'look' busy. They do that, so every fight doesnt just end up a stacks on pile, such as Neo Vs 1000000 Smiths.

So in that regard..the extra mob standing by doing nothing (ok, ok, they could at least LOOK active) is pretty spot on. If the mob did pile in (due to raised aggro caps), that would look pretty silly too, as you get covered in baddies, but without the ability to BURST out like Neo did.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Razor Cure

[Razor Cure]

2 hours ago, Solarverse said:

...run?

That's a fair point. But given the choice between mobs standing still and running..I am going for still ones every time. I HATE runners with a passion, especially when they run for silly reasons, like an AV being scared by a Rain of Fire, ticking for 1 damage a time, that would not even come close to counting his regen.

[Troo]

I am all for increasing the aggro cap IF raising difficulty causes max number of targets for AoE to decrease. (maybe just past +2)

 

I believe this could open the door to the possibility of being overwhelmed. Let chaos ensue.

[Greycat]

5 minutes ago, Troo said:

 Let chaos ensue.

No, no. "Let the Lord of Chaos rule." 🙂

 

And that would be an interesting twist....

[Outrider_01]

2 hours ago, Solarverse said:

If Bill, Will, Bob, Rob, Joe, Ted, Frank, Curtis, Bart, Burt, Fred, Jack, Dave, James, Rick, Sam, and John can't stop the Hulk...why just stand there and wait your turn to get stomped by the Hulk instead of giving yourself a fighting chance by adding the numbers against Hulk...or hell...run?

Countered.

Hulk can't count above 2, so no number you throw at him will make a difference.  He just. flattens the curve.

 

Bet option is to run.

 

Countered

[Troo]

Hey, at some point 5% x 90% has to add up doesn't it?

 

 

and

Spoiler

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by Troo

[Yomo Kimyata]

2 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

If Bill, Will, Bob, Rob, Joe, Ted, Frank, Curtis, Bart, Burt, Fred, Jack, Dave, James, Rick, Sam, and John can't stop the Hulk..why would more guts jump him?

 

Proof it isn't need

You forgot Bort.

[Omega-202]

I'm sorry, but what is that video proving?  You say you needed to go back and regather enemies so it wasn't worth it, and yet you did nothing to actually grab their attention in the first place.  You didn't taunt.  You didn't use a single AoE.  Of course you're going to lose their attention if all you use is Blazing Aura.

 

I can't be the only person thinking this is asinine, right?  It's like trying to prove a tree can't be cut down after only trying to cut it with a pillow.  

[Solarverse]

6 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

I'm sorry, but what is that video proving?  You say you needed to go back and regather enemies so it wasn't worth it, and yet you did nothing to actually grab their attention in the first place.  You didn't taunt.  You didn't use a single AoE.  Of course you're going to lose their attention if all you use is Blazing Aura.

 

I can't be the only person thinking this is asinine, right?  It's like trying to prove a tree can't be cut down after only trying to cut it with a pillow.  

Clearly you weren't here in the old days of herding since you did not see my AoE hitting the mobs, even a miss counts as an aggro. A Tank NEVER needed to taunt to herd...not ever...and if they did, they were doing it wrong. And yes, Tanks were herding using Blazing Aura all by itself.

[Omega-202]

8 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Clearly you weren't here in the old days of herding since you did not see my AoE hitting the mobs, even a miss counts as an aggro. A Tank NEVER needed to taunt to herd...not ever...and if they did, they were doing it wrong. And yes, Tanks were herding using Blazing Aura all by itself.

I was here in those days.  I was herding cemetery maps since earliest days there were, dumpster diving week 1.  

 

But aggro was revamped since then.  Caps were added to aggro and targets.  Stuff changes, yet you try to prove a point using systems that have been gutted and rebuilt.  What does that "prove"?  It just proves you weren't trying to have a good faith discussion. You were purposefully half assing it to push your agenda.  Do you want to prove that Tanking is impossible these days by only running 1 defensive toggle at a time too?  Because that's how it was in the old days so lets test everything that way.  

 

Drop a Fireball and/or Whirling Hands on each spawn and you'll see a world of difference.  A Tank who is actually trying can drag a whole spawn clear across a map without losing them. 

 

Really doesn't matter though because you aren't being genuine and they're also not going to change the caps.  

[Solarverse]

18 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

I was here in those days.  I was herding cemetery maps since earliest days there were, dumpster diving week 1.  

Then you know that Blazing Aura will indeed aggro mobs just the same as a nuke. It triggers aggro either way, especially since nobody else was there for them to share an aggro table with.

Quote

But aggro was revamped since then.  Caps were added to aggro and targets.  Stuff changes, yet you try to prove a point using systems that have been gutted and rebuilt.  What does that "prove"?  It just proves you weren't trying to have a good faith discussion. You were purposefully half assing it to push your agenda.  Do you want to prove that Tanking is impossible these days by only running 1 defensive toggle at a time too?  Because that's how it was in the old days so lets test everything that way.

I am going to try and do this with you without attacking you the way you have clearly done with me. I have been known to lose my cool easily when attacked, but this time I am going to answer your accusations and questions logically here.

Yes, aggro was revamped. I never insinuated otherwise, in fact I covered that in the OP of this thread.  I also mentioned that mobs have a limited timer on their aggro response. If mobs are not continuously reapplied with something that triggers aggro, they eventually stop following you and return to their designated positions. This does not change with what power rolls the dice to hit...regardless if that hit misses or hits, they aggro for the same amount of time, for the same distance. My point of the video shows that even if we raised the aggro cap, the other mechanics of the game would continue to make herding in this game pointless, as it would still be much more efficient to go mob to mob. My video shows strong evidence of this since herding mobs takes almost twice as long to herd them in to one place than it would if a team simply went mob to mob wiping them out together as a unit, rather than waiting for the Tank to bring a large herd back to the team. Also, there is no way a Tank could herd an entire map with today's mechanics. Those days are over even if we completely lifted the aggro limit...which is not even being suggested here.

Also, I am unsure what your evidence is that I am not trying to have a good faith discussion, as there is absolutely zero proof of this.

And yes, on an aggro table, 1 offensive toggle suffices just as much as anything else. Let's not pretend that changes the aggro timers. The ONLY thing that changes aggro timers is a Taunt Enhancement slotted in your toggle. However, I have tested that as well before making this video and it made no noticeable difference.

Your attack on me is based on nothing at all where as my post is proposed base on facts and attacks nobody. And even if you somehow manage to find statements that are false, you have simply found a whole in my knowledge, not some proof that I came here with an agenda to trick everyone in to taking sides with me. Believe it or not, this is not some Nemesis Plot. Your attack on me is unwarranted.

Quote

 Drop a Fireball and/or Whirling Hands on each spawn and you'll see a world of difference.  A Tank who is actually trying can drag a whole spawn clear across a map without losing them. 

This is untrue. I challenge you to go to WeHaveCake server an show evidence that anything you can do will be any better than what I have done. I have shown evidence to back up my post. The burden of proof is on you to show evidence to back up your claim. You will have to go back to reaggro mobs just the same as I did or your mobs will run away while you are still trying to gather up mobs. You will have fewer mobs in your dumpster than what I had if that is what you think will prove me wrong.

Quote

Really doesn't matter though because you aren't being genuine and they're also not going to change the caps.  

I'm not "being genuine." That is an easy claim to make when you are on the attack and your accusation comes with zero evidence to back it up.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Solarverse

[summers]

I like that Tankers don't solve every problem just by being there - I like that overflow occurs, and people need to react accordingly and overextending yourself happens.

 

No thanks to increased Tanker aggro caps.

[Solarverse]

Just now, summers said:

I like that Tankers don't solve every problem just by being there - I like that overflow occurs, and people need to react accordingly and overextending yourself happens.

 

No thanks to increased Tanker aggro caps.

Nobody said the Tank would be able to hold their aggro. The limit to how many a Tank can aggro would still be there. Over aggro and guess what, the aggro is on you. So no, this is not what would happen...which using this logic, you should be all for the idea.  😉

[Doomguide2005]

Guess I'm not sure what this is supposed to accomplish that isn't what folks worried about herding maps (or major chunks of) are afraid of.  So instead of 2 mobs you got 5 (or whatever the aggro limit is set to) and no 'spectators'.  Slightly higher chance of bad stuff happening to the herder.  And the team unloads and kills 5 mobs relatively quickly (particularly high level/incarnate teams).  The Tankers threat is still very likely going to keep all the mobs they aggro'd glued to them until the team obliterates them.  What's changed besides the size of the herd from 17ish to 30 or 40 or whatever?

[Outrider_01]

2 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

What's changed besides the size of the herd from 17ish to 30 or 40 or whatever?

Easier AFK fire farming when Briggs map have them all walk into one spot.  If aggro was greater they will clump up and die slowly instead of continuing to patrol; 16 in first spawn then 16 more and the first stops, second group has several die off and first group starts to feed in, then 16 more show up in spawn 3, some of spawn 1 is going to continue patrol after their number wasn't called to climb into Burn.

[Doomguide2005]

2 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

Easier AFK fire farming when Briggs map have them all walk into one spot.  If aggro was greater they will clump up and die slowly instead of continuing to patrol; 16 in first spawn then 16 more and the first stops, second group has several die off and first group starts to feed in, then 16 more show up in spawn 3, some of spawn 1 is going to continue patrol after their number wasn't called to climb into Burn.

Yay?

[Solarverse]

7 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Guess I'm not sure what this is supposed to accomplish that isn't what folks worried about herding maps (or major chunks of) are afraid of.  So instead of 2 mobs you got 5 (or whatever the aggro limit is set to) and no 'spectators'.  Slightly higher chance of bad stuff happening to the herder.  And the team unloads and kills 5 mobs relatively quickly (particularly high level/incarnate teams).  The Tankers threat is still very likely going to keep all the mobs they aggro'd glued to them until the team obliterates them.  What's changed besides the size of the herd from 17ish to 30 or 40 or whatever?

The taunt limit does not change. So higher number of NPC's means greater risk to other players. But it also means no more unrealistic non-responsive NPC's...they actually do something about it rather than just stand there doing nothing at all.

[Solarverse]

3 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

Easier AFK fire farming when Briggs map have them all walk into one spot.  If aggro was greater they will clump up and die slowly instead of continuing to patrol; 16 in first spawn then 16 more and the first stops, second group has several die off and first group starts to feed in, then 16 more show up in spawn 3, some of spawn 1 is going to continue patrol after their number wasn't called to climb into Burn.

I do not base any suggestions off Farming. Farming is going to happen no matter what changes in this game. Players have proven time and again over the years that if they are persistent about one thing, it's finding ways to exploit the game's mechanics and farm. I also do not suggest changes based on PvP as well, since I am primarily a PvE player who also only farms to make cash, not to power level.

When I make suggestion, I am attempting to create ways to make PvE not only more challenging, but also more realistic and hopefully more fun.

[Doomguide2005]

25 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

The taunt limit does not change. So higher number of NPC's means greater risk to other players. But it also means no more unrealistic non-responsive NPC's...they actually do something about it rather than just stand there doing nothing at all.

Slight, very slight increased risk to the team at best.  Tanks, especially with the recent changes to their AoE's/damage already have the deck pretty well stacked in their favor as long as the team waits to unload and assuming the tank is trying to keep the mobs attention.  Most of the increased risk is to the tank as instead of 17 attacks trying to land some damage they'll have 30 or 40 or 'N'.  Their threat will still be much greater ... until the teams alpha strike and threat is what determines who goes on whose aggro list.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Doomguide2005
Typos

[Solarverse]

16 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Slight, very slight increased risk to the team at best.  Tanks, especially with the recent changes to their AoE's/damage already have the deck pretty well stacked in their favor as long as the team waits to unload and assuming the tank is trying to keep the mobs attention.  Most of the increased risk is to the tank as instead of 17 attacks trying to land some damage they'll have 30 or 40 or 'N'.  Their threat will still be much greater ... until the teams alpha strike and threat is what determines who goes on whose aggro list.

I see that as just giving Healers something to actually heal.  😉  It might actually encourage me to create a Healer. I have yet to create one because I personally see no need or them, but...give us a challenge, you also give us a reason to request healers on our teams. I may actually be tempted to create a Healer given those circumstances.

[Doomguide2005]

5 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

I see that as just giving Healers something to actually heal.  😉  It might actually encourage me to create a Healer. I have yet to create one because I personally see no need or them, but...give us a challenge, you also give us a reason to request healers on our teams. I may actually be tempted to create a Healer given those circumstances.

Lolololol 😛

 

Considering just how tough a tank can be I'm pretty sure that would mean clearing large chunks the map to really threaten the tank ... and we're back to map herding

 

Okay that's 90% in jest, the other 10% would be my GM nuking the foes to save the tank and not spamming heals.

[Solarverse]

Just now, Doomguide2005 said:

Lolololol 😛

 

Considering just how tough a tank can be I'm pretty sure that would mean clearing large chunks the map to really threaten the tank ... and we're back to map herding

 

Okay that's 90% in jest, the other 10% would be my GM nuking the foes to save the tank and not spamming heals.

Well, unless people are willing to at least attempt a change, I think it's just mostly speculation as to what would happen. I think I know how players would adjust, but...that is also based on speculation. The only way to find out is to actually make the change and see. I just REALLY hate mobs standing around doing nothing while my team is beating down their friends....that drives me absolutely insane to see and is my #1 gripe about this game. It will probably never change, people get used to things being one way and change is something people do not welcome very often. I remember before the aggro cap was changed, people did not want that change either. It was always the very loud voices of the few who demanded nerfs in those days. People wanting change are always facing an uphill battle on this suggestion forum...especially if that request threatens to change a mechanic of the game. So I honestly don't expect to see this request see light of day, but...it would be nice if we could at very least put it to the test.